The Somme…

A better way to honour these poor men would be to stick the hundreds of thousands spent on commemorations into relief work for those hit by war today.

Having just returned from The Somme I have a lot of sympathy for this viewpoint. The centenary there was a nightmare of bureaucracy and ridiculous levels of ‘security’

However, I can’t help but imagine the social media backlash if the French authorities had simply ignored the centenary, even if they had given a hundred thousand (or whatever) to an armed forces charity.

Dammed if you do … etc.

Moggy

Sad and marked by a variety of memorial events which underline the interest and respect of those involved and also the many who look on and remember. My interest in history and looking into the background of dramatic events has taught me that outcomes can hinge on the actions of a few which then set off a chain of events turning the tide of war. When the Jacobites reached the Derby area on their march South to London a double agent fed the senior officers false information regarding the strength of government forces blocking the route ahead and after heated arguements it was decided to retreat which culminated in the final defeat of the Jacobite forces on Culloden moor.

Re Post number 6. Missing aircrew for the RFC and RAF for WW.1 are all recorded on the Arras Memorial.

John

At North Weald we hosted the Epping Forest Somme Overnight Vigil. Pictures are posted on the North Weald Diary thread.

Did somebody mention ‘plug’ ?

Thanks Steve – for more info on their amazing achievement, have a look at their blog on Bristol Scout: Rebuilding Granddad’s Aircraft

Well done Dragon Rapide, to all involved in that superbly fitting tribute by a wonderful aeroplane. I salute you!

‘For no reason’ is wrong. ‘For no good reason’ is more accurate.

hi,
if you put it in todays scenario ” Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together by the bar, when Serbia bumps into Austria and spills his drink” I think that will do it in most cases…

regards,
jack…

this post may contain grammatical errors…

Subtle plug!

It’s worked though – I may well buy a copy!

By the way, having been beaten by the weather on the 1st July, the Bristol Scout flew twice over the Thiepval memorial and Newfoundland Park (Beaumont Hamel – a preserved battlefield) yesterday, in the hands firstly of David Bremner, whose great-uncle (I think – also David Bremner) was fatally wounded at Beaumont Hamel. The second sortie was flown by Theo Willford, co-builder of the Scout. The Scout, which has an original Le-Rhone engine, represents (and contains a few components from) David’s grandfather “Bunnie” Bremner’s Scout 1264.

The initial poster, mentioning the Somme, said there was ‘no aviation content’ to his post. As others have pointed out, of course, there was!

In our Somme 100 ‘special’ of this month’s edition of ‘Britain at War’ magazine we have a feature by IWM historian Peter Hart on the vitally important role played by the RFC during the battle in his piece ‘Somme Success’. Our front cover also reflects the aviation element of the battle.

Of course, everything is overshadowed and eclipsed by the awful events on the ground and this often leaves the impression that the RFC were not involved and not taking losses. They were.

Hopefully, this feature, which stands alongside another 28 x pages of special content on the Battle of Somme, gives more of an insight into this oft neglected element of the battle.

I’ve always seen the first world war as a stalemate between old military tactics and modern technology. A point in military history that had to happen
in order to develop new ways of waging war without the cost and suffering.
The reason the Somme happened (IMHO) was because our tactics just couldn’t cope with mechanization in terms of machine guns and artillery.
Lack of mobility, viable air support and communications, combined with extended lines that couldn’t be circumvented what else could you do?

Technology was sufficiently developed to cause carnage but not to be able to deal with a trench war situation.

From what I have read and seen on tv the Somme wasn’t a complete disaster. Some gains were made and like all battles it weakened the enemy and
ultimately lead to victory. The real question is not was it a success or failure, more a case of were the casualties acceptable? In humanitarian terms was it acceptable?

I don’t think it was and today you wouldn’t get away with it.

I don’t think that ‘butchered for no reason’ is more honest, or accurate…

…given that France had been attacked by Germany in 1914 and was still under attack at Verdun in 1916 what would you have done?

I understand that ‘the Somme’ has become a byword for military incompetence and, with the benefit of hindsight, we’d probably all have done something differently, but are you advocating that no military action was taken by the British as that would seem to be the only way to avoid any ‘unnecessary’ deaths?

‘For no reason’ is wrong. ‘For no good reason’ is more accurate.

The whole war was unnecessary and all parties were to blame for allowing things to escalate to the point they did without stepping back to stop it. And yes there was
Incompetence but it was beyond that. Sending scores of men over the top time and time again was murderous.

What would I have done? I wouldn’t have declared war in the first place and neither should any of them. What actually were they fighting for? To put simply?

Those ww1 memories that say ‘they died for your freedom’ are being a bit loose with the truth. They died for much more tragic reasons than that. Please note, I’m referring only to this being the case with ww1 where as ww2 presents a clearer case for that epitaph.

Poppies have lost much of there strength of message. Some honest words about how the governments of the time failed these men, regardless of nationality, would be refreshing at one of these events and much more powerful.

Well I shall continue to remember my wife’s great-grandfather, who like many, never survived long enough to make it to the Somme.

The Great War had already killed thousands before July 1916, and the Somme was not the first, the only or the last waste of human life in that conflict.

Great-grandfather’s life was brought to an end by his own creeping barrage, as he waited to advance at Aubers Ridge. I find his loss particularly poignant and senseless.

I’d like to think that war taught us many lessons, but events up to the present day show that we still have a great deal to learn.

I wish they’d adopt a more honest way to remembering these events with someone actually saying they were butchered for no reason rather than endless platitudes about dying for our freedom…

I don’t think that ‘butchered for no reason’ is more honest, or accurate…

…given that France had been attacked by Germany in 1914 and was still under attack at Verdun in 1916 what would you have done?

I understand that ‘the Somme’ has become a byword for military incompetence and, with the benefit of hindsight, we’d probably all have done something differently, but are you advocating that no military action was taken by the British as that would seem to be the only way to avoid any ‘unnecessary’ deaths?

Re #14 You make a very good point wings.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor as the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning.
We will remember them.

A request to the mods. Could this thread and the one in General Discussion be merged? It would be great to have all the tributes and info in one place.

There was nearly an aviation contribution today, as the wonderful Bristol Scout (on it’s return from flying in Greece) and WAHT’s Albatros DVa and BE2 were due to fly over the Somme Memorial at Thiepval at mid-day. Sadly the weather was against them, but I believe David Bremner is hoping to have another go in the Scout tomorrow.

I wish they’d adopt a more honest way to remembering these events with someone actually saying they were butchered for no reason rather than endless platitudes about dying for our freedom.

Almost as ludicrous as some of the people posing for selfies Infront of the wave of poppies at the Tower of London when the majority of them probably don’t have any knowledge, inclination or desire to help those affected by war today. So easy to wear a poppy but so much Harder to do something about the problems of today.

A better way to honour these poor men would be to stick the hundreds of thousands spent on commemorations into relief work for those hit by war today.

I can remember visiting Thiepval where the big commemoration was held today, and also attending the playing of The Last Post at Ypres, and being deeply moved. My father and his eldest brother both fought in both wars, luckily neither were at the Somme. The brother died in the siege of Malta in 1942 which deeply affected me at the time.