The U.N and Hezbollah

See, when you say Arab friends, you really mean Arab customers…

You dont negotiate peace with freinds do you 😉

As an Israeli I can’t understand Hizballah’s motives, because they’re wrong. Some Lebanese, mostly in exile, also understand that they’re wrong.

Believe it or not, Gollevainen, but not every Lebanese thinks that Hizballah is the Arab’s world’s shining knight. Many understand that it was Hizballah who brought over their country a conflict which had nothing to do with them.

There are Israelis who thought this war was wrong.

Being right and wrong is a point of view, and people always argue over it.

Anyways, Interesting information Tony, Hurrifan and Gollevainen…everyday there is something new to learn.

Erez,

“I don’t know their work and I can’t judge what they wrote. I’ll be interested in reading it though.”

and i would be interested in hearing what you think of their writings and their finding’s..

“Aren’t they entitled to their own opinion regarding the American policy in the world?”
“What they really want to say is that people from around the world say that the reason that the US is being hated around the world is its support for Israel. As far as I understand, they claim that its untrue, and is a defamation of Israel”

everyone is entitled to their opinion. However some opinions , such as discrimination ,anti-semitism or for that matter support of mass genocide, are not acceptable in civilisied society.

The US Administration, and many of its predecessors, is despised around the world for the arrogance and hypocrisy of its foreign policy.I am sorry to say that its attitude to Isreal along with its blind and unquestioning support for everything and anything that Isreal does means that Isreal is one of the major factors in this despisement.

“Let’s compare that to pre-1948 Palestine. The Jews decide that they want a homeland in their historical homeland. The problem is, there are alreay people there. If they claimed the entire land, they wouldn’t have got it. So, the solution came in the form of partition. That’s a reasonable, fair solution, and it was accepted by the Zionists and should have also been accepted by the Palestinians.”

right…so they ” decided ” this and that makes it right???? and as for their being soo nice not to claim all the land, just most of it…what about all the land grabs that have happened since then???What about the illegal occupations and invasions???

and once again i ask …what gives them the right to claim land which by your admission they hadnt occupied since when???? IF the a
American Indians or the Australian Aborigine dont have the same rights of reoccupation despite occuping their land much more recently what was the rationalle behind the establishment of the state of Isreal?? after all this happened 60 years ago….

” call the return of the Jews to their native homeland a success. The partition of Palestine was not a success, but the people responsible for that were the Palestinians.”

A success for who??? one small part of the population of the Middle east?? how many deaths both Isreali and Arab has this cost???How much disruption not just in the Middel east but across the world???

WE ARE ALL PAYING A HELL OF A HIGH PRICE FOR THE FREEDOM OF ISREAL

and its all the Palestinians fault???? they are invaded, brutalisied , murdered …and its their fault??? ….words fail me in the face of such thinking.

“The Israeli relationship with the South African apartheid regime was probably the darkest part in the history of the Israeli foreign affairs. Any assistance given to that regime by Israel is a shame. I for one believe that if it hasn’t done so until now, Israel should officialy apologize for that.”

Well said !!!! and that is sincerely meant!!! 😉

“No one said that there were no human rights abuses made by Israel, but none in the form of slavery.”

Slavery comes in many forms…Subsistance wages, unfair work conditions, abuse etc etc etc…

some more sites for your perusal;

http://www.washington-report.org/pdf/postcardMarch2003.pdf#search=%22%22palestinian%20workforce%22%22
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h052402.html

“Let me begin by saying that some of the sources used to prepare some of these statistics are completely biased. ““But even these sources talk about a couple of thousands of Palestinians killed during the Intifada – none of them talks about, quote, “TENS OF THOUSANDS”.”

and “http://www.adl.org/international/Is…ntroduction.asp.” is totally unbiased and fair????

to quote myself; “note that most of the figures are for a period of 4 or 5 years ONLY and are not up to the present day “

work it for yourself….thses are the figures for a period of 4 to 5 years…how long have the Palestinians suffered at the hands of Isreal?

“But isn’t that some spokespersons’ jobs and way of behaviour? What makes you think that its local to Israelis?”

no it isnt..only in America and even there not as often as with Isreal’s reps.

“GOOD ANSWER…BET THAT TOOK A LOT OF THOUGHT!!!!! (Almost as much thought as your own witty response, I’ll bet! GA “

well…with me being a thicko paddy it does take a while sometimes….. 😀

“Murder of innocent men, women and children wasn’t/isn’t/hopefully never will be the stance of the Israeli governments. The stance of the Israeli governments was/is/hopefully always will be fighting terrorism. Unfortunately, innocent people get killed in the process. Innocent people get killed in all conflicts.”

mass use of cluster bombs? 100,000+ unexploded/time delay bomblets in south Lebanon? TV pictures of innocent babies shot to death in the street by the IDF ? how many dead Un observers?

There are too many innocent deaths to be ignored….

and once again and for the third time i ask,outside of Isreal;

“who supports your governments stance? who thinks you are in the right?…..”

The idea of not being able to “earn” credit from someone who cant recognise that the deaths of so many Arab civilians is wrong does’nt really upset or worry me too much…but if you really want examples of the tiresome rubbish on this site;

and this relating to two eminent , well qualified and respected men of learning who, horror of horrors , happen to be attached to two of the major Universities in the good ole US of A…i have read their script…WHAT THEY SURMISIED IS TRUE!!!!

I don’t know their work and I can’t judge what they wrote. I’ll be interested in reading it though.

hoorahhhhhh…lets go nuke ’em!!!!! realistic journalism???? me a**E !!!!

Aren’t they entitled to their own opinion regarding the American policy in the world?
What they really want to say is that people from around the world say that the reason that the US is being hated around the world is its support for Israel. As far as I understand, they claim that its untrue, and is a defamation of Israel.

Sorry old son but your argument doesnt hold water…in fact you have actually destroyed the rationale behind the foundation of the State of Isreal…IF it isnt practical to re establish the native Americans or Aborigine as the owners of their own land then why should the Jewish people be allowed to retake land that they lost 2000 years ago???? and furthermore you have subsequently listed some of the various tribes and peoples who have lived in Palestine..what gives Isreal the right to a better claim that their descendants???

If the native Americans, for example, will decide to unite and that they want an independent country, I for one will support the idea that the US will give them back a part of their land. A small part, proportional for their size. But if they’ll claim the ENTIRE land of the US, then they’ll get no support from no one. Why? because the US isn’t going anyway.
Let’s compare that to pre-1948 Palestine. The Jews decide that they want a homeland in their historical homeland. The problem is, there are alreay people there. If they claimed the entire land, they wouldn’t have got it. So, the solution came in the form of partition. That’s a reasonable, fair solution, and it was accepted by the Zionists and should have also been accepted by the Palestinians.

About the list I’ve made, from all those historical peoples who were or became native to this land (which means the Canaantites, the Israelites, the Arabs/Palestinians and the Philistines), only two survived to this day: The Israelites, in the form of the Jews, and the Arabs who became the Palestinians. All of the rest have disappeared in history. That’s why only these two peoples have a right to claim this land as their homeland.

and then you call the the Palestine/Isreal partition a success???? oh please….

I call the return of the Jews to their native homeland a success. The partition of Palestine was not a success, but the people responsible for that were the Palestinians.

Well you got that one right..neither people will be going away…in the same way that your old friends the white supremacists in South Africa didnt go away…nor for that matter the Coloured people of SA …But the old ” white power” merchants had to learn to COMPROMISE and to accept the inevitable…everyone is equal in this world no matter what colour they are or what god they worship…and the rest of the world usually isnt wrong either!!!!

The Israeli relationship with the South African apartheid regime was probably the darkest part in the history of the Israeli foreign affairs. Any assistance given to that regime by Israel is a shame. I for one believe that if it hasn’t done so until now, Israel should officialy apologize for that.

ok…some stories of discrimination and abuse of human rights:

http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/EffectiveSolidarity/histadrut.html
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/680/re104.htm
http://www.fips.org.il/fips/site/p_publications/item_en.asp?doc=&iss=&iid=570

No one said that there were no human rights abuses made by Israel, but none in the form of slavery.

yes i do as matter of fact.but then they are people of reason and fairness.

Well, good for you.

some more anti semetic, pinko commie misinformers..note that most of the figures are for a period of 4 or 5 years ONLY and are not up to the present day:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4294502.stm
http://www.robincmiller.com/pales6.htm
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/PrinterF.cfm?DocId=163&CategoryID=2
http://www.phrmg.org/initifiada%20statistics.htm
http://www.phrmg.org/monitor.htm
http://www.jerusalemites.org/statistic.htm

enough?

Let me begin by saying that some of the sources used to prepare some of these statistics are completely biased.
But even these sources talk about a couple of thousands of Palestinians killed during the Intifada – none of them talks about, quote, “TENS OF THOUSANDS”.

Bit of a persecution complex by the sounds of things…….

and with regards to the Image I have of Isreali’s i dont make generalizations such as that…I referred to the type of Spokespersons that seem to be soo popular with both your government and media..people who seem unable to answer direct questions , who ignore points they dont want to address, and who attempt to shout down and bully those who wont stop asking such questions.

But isn’t that some spokespersons’ jobs and way of behaviour? What makes you think that its local to Israelis?

GOOD ANSWER…BET THAT TOOK A LOT OF THOUGHT!!!!!:diablo: (Almost as much thought as your own witty response, I’ll bet! :rolleyes: GA)

Well if you REALLY dont know…go look back through the various postings on this and other treads…ITS YOUR GOVERNENTS MURDER OF MEN WOMEN AND KIDS…OK???

and here we have a perfect example of what i referred to with regards to your countries spokespersons/apologists….

for the 2nd time…..

“who supports your governments stance? who thinks you are in the right?…..”

Murder of innocent men, women and children wasn’t/isn’t/hopefully never will be the stance of the Israeli governments. The stance of the Israeli governments was/is/hopefully always will be fighting terrorism. Unfortunately, innocent people get killed in the process. Innocent people get killed in all conflicts.

.

In reply to EREZ……….

What’s wrong with fighting the defamation of the Jewish people? wasn’t there enough of it through history, or today?

If you want to relate to the content of the website and prove what kind of crap it is, be my guest. Until then, your arguments earn no credit from me and are, once more, way too simplistic.

The idea of not being able to “earn” credit from someone who cant recognise that the deaths of so many Arab civilians is wrong does’nt really upset or worry me too much…but if you really want examples of the tiresome rubbish on this site;

On every issue, the authors start with unproven, anti-Israel assumptions and then look for isolated examples to justify these assumptions. One does not have to take a pro-Israel position to recognize that the authors, despite their reputations, have no interest in producing a serious, balanced work. The result is a sloppy diatribe.

and this relating to two eminent , well qualified and respected men of learning who, horror of horrors , happen to be attached to two of the major Universities in the good ole US of A…i have read their script…WHAT THEY SURMISIED IS TRUE!!!!

Therefore, the primary deterrent activity will be U.S. military, intelligence and diplomatic work overseas. We will take the war to them. The message of preemptive action will have finally at great cost, been internalized. Of course, there will be those here and abroad who will try to divert our government and people from its necessary mission. One way is the suggestion that this happened because U.S. support of Israel breeds hatred of us in the Arab world. If only America had backed off from Israel, it is said, none of this would have happened.

hoorahhhhhh…lets go nuke ’em!!!!! realistic journalism???? me a**E !!!!

An error? whose error? the idea that this is a homeland for two nations was accepted by the UN, the Zionist leadership who accepted the UN plan, as well as the rest of the world.
And it was my personal opinion for a very long time. So, I’m not “admitting” anything.

The ancient history of the Jews and their connection to this land IS HARD FACTS, not “historical conjecture”. Or do you want to start denying history now, or alter it to suit your views?

And no, before you start, I’m not talking about anything related to religion. I’m talking about the FACTS, that Jewish/Israelite kingdoms existed in this land in the past for centuries, that they were destroyed by foreign powers, that the Jews of Judea have been forcibly exiled from the land by the Romans almost 2000 years ago and that the modern day Jews are the descendants of these people.

About giving the land in the world to its original native people, that’s practically impossible in the post-imperialist world. The only place that it was possible and has been done successfuly was the UN mandate of Palestine-Land of Israel.

Sorry old son but your argument doesnt hold water…in fact you have actually destroyed the rationale behind the foundation of the State of Isreal…IF it isnt practical to re establish the native Americans or Aborigine as the owners of their own land then why should the Jewish people be allowed to retake land that they lost 2000 years ago???? and furthermore you have subsequently listed some of the various tribes and peoples who have lived in Palestine..what gives Isreal the right to a better claim that their descendants???

Israel is not going away. The Palestinians are not going away. It’s obvious that the only working solution is in the form of partition, whether we like it or not.”

Well you got that one right..neither people will be going away…in the same way that your old friends the white supremacists in South Africa didnt go away…nor for that matter the Coloured people of SA …But the old ” white power” merchants had to learn to COMPROMISE and to accept the inevitable…everyone is equal in this world no matter what colour they are or what god they worship…and the rest of the world usually isnt wrong either!!!!

Alright, then prove the so called “almost-Arab-slavery”, a weird new term by the way.

ok…some stories of discrimination and abuse of human rights:

http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/EffectiveSolidarity/histadrut.html
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/680/re104.htm
http://www.fips.org.il/fips/site/p_publications/item_en.asp?doc=&iss=&iid=570

I don’t happen to have Arab brothers. Do you happen to have Jewish brothers?

yes i do as matter of fact.but then they are people of reason and fairness.

And which murder are you talking about? I don’t think that the total number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel since its creation comes close to “TENS OF THOUSANDS”.

some more anti semetic, pinko commie misinformers..note that most of the figures are for a period of 4 or 5 years ONLY and are not up to the present day:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4294502.stm
http://www.robincmiller.com/pales6.htm
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/PrinterF.cfm?DocId=163&CategoryID=2
http://www.phrmg.org/initifiada%20statistics.htm
http://www.phrmg.org/monitor.htm
http://www.jerusalemites.org/statistic.htm

enough?

I for one don’t shout, roar, rant or try to bully. How on earth could you think I do all that when all you can do is READ what I WRITE here?I have an answer for that, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But what I think is that you wrote that because that’s the dumb image of Israelis that you have, sir – and I don’t care how much you write that “you have no problem with Israelis”.

Bit of a persecution complex by the sounds of things…….

Funny, and all this time I’m waiting for you to do the same.”

GOOD ANSWER…BET THAT TOOK A LOT OF THOUGHT!!!!! :diablo: ( Almost as much thought as your own witty response, I’ll bet! :rolleyes: GA )

Can you explain me the stance of the Israeli governments? and which issue are you referring to?

Well if you REALLY dont know…go look back through the various postings on this and other treads…ITS YOUR GOVERNENTS MURDER OF MEN WOMEN AND KIDS…OK???

“who supports your governments stance? who thinks you are in the right?…..”

Erez, my friend, I’m sure you will agree that any right-minded person seeking the truth would always look at every side of a story. So thanks for bringing to people’s attention the Anti-Defamation League’s site; it has some valid points about the UN (why they arose is another story) and whilst I don’t agree with quite a lot of it, it is always good to see another viewpoint. While talking about how biased the UN is, they might also wish to point out that it was actually a UN (!) resolution that called for the partition of Palestine into two states: Israel and Palestine! 😉

Jewish writers and journalists that have spoken far more eloquently on this subject than I ever could. Men such as Amos Oz, a man of strong moral stature (ironically he changed his name to Oz, strength in Hebrew), Professor of Literature at Ben-Gurion University in Be’er Sheva, who is respected and admired throughout the World (winner of Goethe Prize 2005).

Oz served in the Israel Defence Force with a tank unit in Sinai in 1967 and on the Golan Heights in 1973. Since then, he has been at the forefront of the peace movement in Israel. While I may not necessarily agree with all of his views, he put it best when he wrote in his essay “How to Cure a Fanatic”, is what we are talking about is basically a real estate or land dispute.

The Italian chemist, Primo Levi, always appealed to me as I studied Biochemistry at University (though sadly I’m now in Finance!). Levi survived Auschwitz because he worked in the Buna laboratory that produced synthetic rubber – only because he knew some german (a lot of Chemistry and Biochemistry scientific journals are in german) and because of his training. After the war he wrote ‘If This Is a Man’ (Se questo è un uomo) and later ‘The Truce’ (La tregua). The evil that lives in the hearts of men and the cruelty they are capable of carrying out is laid out clearly in those memoirs of the holocaust. No thinking person can look at the Nazis’ inhumanity and their persecution of Jews with anything but revulsion.

The point is the holocaust WAS one of the major drivers for the realisation and creation of the State of Israel by the victors of the second world war on land that was already occupied by Arabs and had been for generations. So when you say later the Jews didn’t fall out of the sky into Palestine, yes they did! While I might even agree with a notion of a homeland for the Jews, certainly not in a place where there is someone there already!

Let’s put it this way – the Zionist leadership never said something like – “look what happened in Europe during the holocaust, that’s why we need our own homeland”. What they did say was “look what happened in Europe during the holocaust, it’s the peak of thousands of years of antisemitism and hatred of the Jew – and that Antisemitism is a reason for the creation of a new Jewish homeland”. The difference is rather small, but also rather important.

The thing that indirectly brought the Palestine paritition plan to voting in the UN was the American Harrison report, which asked the last remains of the European Jewry where it wants to immigrate – and the overwhelming majority of them wanted to go to Palestine. The British refused to accept these few hundred of thousands of refugees in Palestine as a humanitarian gesture, which brought an increased world wide support to the Jewish struggle in Palestine. Eventually the issue was taken to the UN, and the rest is history.

There were only ever a few tens of thousands of Jews in Palestine in the early 1900s; most of the 12 million Jews then lived in Russia, Poland, America and Eastern Europe and many of the European (Ashkenazim) Jews are actually descended from Khazars, converts in the 7th to 11th century in Southern Russia, Ukraine,Crimea, causcaus states (Judaism was state religion of the Khazars, a Turko-Finnish people, you’ll love being related to Gollevainen! :p ) and from mitacondrial DNA studies are not even semites! Middle-eastern origin Jews, the Mizrahi (not talking about Sephardic Jews from Spain or Portugal) are a very small minority in Israel along with their fellow semitic Arabs (both Christian and Muslim) but you will know more about this than I ever could!

I’ve already been in that argument before here, but I can’t find it now. It’s a shame, because I had the answers for exactly the same claims all prepared over there.
The claim that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the Khazars is not supported by the latest scientific/genetical studies. Even a brief look at wikipedia will show you the results of these studies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#Who_is_an_Ashkenazi_Jew.3F

“Although the historical record itself is very limited, there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East.”

“A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome… found that the Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews was of Middle Eastern origin, containing mutations that are also common among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced primarily to the Middle East.”

“The first research on Ashkenazi maternal ancestry was less conclusive. A 2002 study by Goldstein et al[11] found that “the women’s origins cannot be genetically determined”, but that “his own speculation” was that “most Jewish communities were formed by unions between Jewish men and local women.”

“More recent research indicates that a significant portion of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry is also of Middle Eastern origin. A 2006 study by Behar et al[12], based on haplotype analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women. These four “founder lineages” were “likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool” originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE.”

So, I’m not claiming that 2000 years of exile had no effect on the Jewish population, and some intermarriage did occur. But that still doesn’t change the fact that as said in the first quotation, all evidents point for a Middle Eastern origin for the Ashkenazim.

As for Palestine being the home of the Jews for a few hundred years a couple of thousand years ago, yes it was- I agree with you! We all know about King Herod, a historical figure for whom we have tons of evidence. Interesting though that no archealogical evidence found for King David at all!

If you go further back, the true home of the Jews (and their fellow semites, the Arabs) is the place where Abraham (common father of Jewish Isaac and Arab Ishamel) was born: the ancient Chaldean city of Ur in Northern Mesopotamia (straddles Modern day Iraq/Turkey), now in southeastern Turkey. Some of the “lost tribes” stayed in exile in what is modern day Iraq, so why not stake a claim for a homeland there because your ancestors originally were from there! 😀 :diablo:

I don’t think that means much. According to the biblical story, Abraham came to Canaan only with his family. Isaac, his son, gave birth to Jacob, who gave birth to twelve sons, who only in Egypt became the 12 tribes of Israel. Still, none of this means much. According to the Exodus story, these tribes went back to Canaan after around 400 years, settled the land and lived there for a while. This is where it gets interesting, because around that time, these tribes became a real nation, first united and then as the two kingdoms of Israel and Judea. There were a couple of exiles and returns to the land later on, but what’s really important in my opinion is the existance of the Jewish kingdom of Judea around the 1st century CE and BCE. That’s when there was no longer a Judean or Israelite identity, but a Jewish identity. The people of this kingdom were Jews. They are in fact the first Jews of the world, and what really matters here is that their kingdom was destroyed by the ancient world’s superpower, Rome, with its people going mainly to two directions – East to Babylon and West towards Rome. These groups of peoples will later be known as Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Mizrahim. They are the direct link that connects modern day Jews with ancient Jews.

Forgive me Erez, but you are being slightly disingenuous again, as you were when you said to Grey Area that the Jewish public did not support the terrorism against the British army and Arabs that helped establish Israel, when the same Jewish public voted the former terrorist leaders Menachem Begin (Irgun) and Yitshak Shamir (Lehi/”Stern Gang” who unbelievably told the Nazis they would join with them against the British in exchange for allowing Jews to come to Palestine!) in as Prime Ministers! These were the direct antecedents of the Heruts and Likud parties.

The public that elected Shamir and Begin after 1977 was hardly the same Jewish public that lived in the land before 1948 – you’re forgetting that a generation has passed, and that Israel is an immigration country – and most of the public that elected them either was borned in the State of Israel or immigrated to it after its creation.

That being said, the question whether they were terrorists or not is a debate in itself. One thing is sure, though – they were never questioned for being terrorists from within the general Israeli public, for the obvious reason that for the Israeli public they were heroes, fighters for the freedom of Israel. Now, that kind of invites one to say, “well, the Palestinians today also consider Hamas and other militants as heroes and freedom fighters”. True, but not a wise comparision in my opinion. Begin and Shamir both weren’t killers of innocent women and children. They targeted British officials on the mandate authorities and armed British and Arab men. Mostly Arab. You could say that they made innocent people suffer expulsion and so on during the 1948 war, but that’s not comparable to murder.

About them communicating with the Nazis, they considered the Germans as a strong superpower who could help them to get rid of the British. They saw them as just another strong fascist country. They didn’t know, of course, that the Germans were about to create the holocaust and destroy most of the European Jewry.

And as a sidenote, they weren’t the only ones who had connections with the Nazis – Mufti Haj Amin El-Husseini, the first important Palestinian national leader, met with Hitler in Berlin. He too wanted the Germans’ help of getting rid of the British, but he also wanted them to “take care” of the Jews of Palestine while at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni#Nazi_ties_and_activities_during_World_War_II

The raison d’etre of Israel is as a Jewish State, based on religion. You would do well to look up one of the most famous quotes of David Ben Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” (David Ben Gurion, Israeli Prime Minister 1948-1963).

If, like me, you don’t believe the Bible when it says Abraham, father of the Jewish people, lived for 175 years and he was born 2,000 years after the world was “created” in 4004 BC (I believe the Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old 😉 ), then I wouldn’t be happy if someone quoted the Book of Numbers to justify the Jewish claim to that bit of Earth! (if, by the way, you actually read the Book of Numbers today, it seems amazingly narrow and parochial in its subject matter, dealing with the goings on of just one tiny group of people, as against the problems of the rest of humanity!)

Actually that’s a seriously inaccurate quotation. I don’t know where you got it from, but here is the right version, directly translated from Hebrew:

“If I were an Arab leader I would never make peace with Israel. It is natural – we took their country. It is true that we came from Israel, but two thousands years ago, and what do they care of that? there was antisemitism, there were the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was it their fault? they see just one thing: we came and stole their land. Why would they accept that?” (David Ben Gurion, The Jewish Paradox, 1978, page 99).

So, as I suspected when reading your version of this quotation, Ben Gurion didn’t mention God. He was a socialist, near atheist. He didn’t talk about God given promises, he was talking about history, and the origin of the Jewish people.

You say your link to the Israeli Foreign Ministry website shows you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants. Well, your link also does not mention what Yitzhak Rabin, said in an uncensored version of his memoirs, published in the New York Times (23 October 1979):

‘We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question – What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said “Drive them out!” 😀 :diablo:

Yitzhak Rabin, Prime minister of Israel, in his memoirs in Hebrew, Pinkas Sherut, mentioned something in the 1948 war that had troubled him ever since: the forced expulsion by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) of 50,000 Palestinians from Lod-Ramle. An Israeli cabinet committee ordered this section be removed against Rabin’s wishes, but this was revealed by the English translator and published in The New York Times. So much for not forgetting the Arab inhabitants! 😮 😮

I believe Rabin was referring to the Six Days War.
But anyway, I’m not claiming that the Zionist dealing with the land’s Arabs was perfect. It was a war, and in war not always the rules of ethics are kept. Much like the American declaration of independence promised full equality for all people in the US, keeping the Blacks as slaves and Amerindians as animals, so did Israel promise things it didn’t always keep.

But just like the American case, the important thing is that already in the Israeli declaration of independence a full equality of rights between all of the citizens of Israel is promised. And indeed many Palestinian Arabs chose to stay and were allowed to stay within Israel – and today they are the 1 million Israeli Arabs.

You might say it’s a simplistic analysis; actually, it is an analysis by the Jewish writer Amos Oz, who stated that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not a war of religion or cultures or traditions, but actually a real estate dispute- that will be resolved not by greater understanding, but by painful compromise!

He further added, that “Two Palestinian-Israeli wars have erupted in this region. One is the Palestinian nation’s war for its freedom from occupation and for its right to independent statehood. Any decent person ought to support this cause.

The second war is waged by fanatical Islam, from Iran to Gaza and from Lebanon to Ramallah, to destroy Israel and drive the Jews out of their land. Any decent person ought to abhor this cause.” (Amos Oz, April 7, 2002)

I don’t believe in any organised religion, Jewish, Muslim or Christian, so of course I’m with Amos Oz against ANY extremists or those that would impose their beliefs on the rest of us, so convinced are they that they are right! But let’s not confuse the issue by invoking this when this is really about someone coming and taking your land! What would you do in their shoes?:)

Now you really are making fun of us! 😀 😀 In your heart of hearts you must know that to say this land did not belong to the Arabs is ridiculous! Even Ben Gurion said (see above quote) we stole the land from the Arabs! Who do you think owned the land under the Ottomans or the British ? No one!? This is funny especially after you also wrote:

Not always the people who settle the land are its owners. The point is that there was never an independent Arab Palestinian entity in this land, and that the Arabs who settled here always did so while knowing that this land, while is their homeland, belonged to someone alse – the Turks, for example. The British were much less accepted by the Arabs, but on the other hand were accepted by the majority of the world as the land’s administrators.

You seem to accept the Arabs must have had title from someone, be it from Ottoman times or under the British Mandate (interestingly ordinances from the British mandate are apparently still used to sequester Arab land, particularly around Jerusalem, the city where Amos Oz was born and he knows better than many what really happened – half his books are set within a few miles of where he was born in Jerusalem). This title to the land is still valid even after the State of Israel was declared in 1948.

There were Palestinian land owners, but that still doesn’t mean that they controled the land. Owning and controling is a major difference here.

I hope you live long and prosper Erez, but I suspect this might prove difficult if you close your mind to what you deep down know is a cruel injustice to the Palestinians. They’re not going to sit quietly and take it forever and unless there is a meeting of minds and mutual compromise (including now, however unfair to the Palestinians, acceptance of Israel) there will never be peace.

The point is, most of the world recognizes the 1967 borders as the legitimate Israeli borders. The Palestinians could have got their own country over more than 90% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip, and yet they chose war once more. Jerusalem is a different issue, although I’m sure that eventually it will be split to be the capital city of two states, Israel and Palestine.
Except for Jerusalem, Israel doesn’t have much to compromise. Now it’s the Palestinians time to start focusing on their future, take most of what most of the world sees as theirs, and build their own country instead of focusing on destroying our’s.

I can understand Hurrifan’s frustration boiling over because even Jewish sources know the truth of Palestinian workers having to get up at 2am or 3am to get to a checkpoint at 4am in the hope of being a labourer or work on a construction site in Israel. Often IDF personnel slap, kick or insult, or make them wait without reason under the blazing sun. At times, beatings led to severe injury or shooting of a car and the death of a worker. Most of the “light” abuse remains unreported, either because of fear of filing a complaint or because of the difficulties involved in doing so. But don’t take my word for it, this is from Yehezkel Lein, a Jewish activist.

The question you must ask yourself Erez is what would you do if your life was lived under this daily humiliation, with no means to provide more than a subsistance existence for your family and no hope for the future?

Occupation corrups. It’s nothing new. It corrupts people, societies and entire countries. On the other hand, you could say, no one told these Palestinians to come to work in Israel. That was their choice.

.

Right of return is reasonable. Expecting the return of East Jerusalem to serve as their capital is reasonable.

For an Israeli government to accept the Right of Return of of Palestinians to their former homes would mean it accepting they rightly belong there and should not have had to leave or have been “encouraged” to leave (Menachem Begin, head of Irgun, later Prime Minister of Israel), said because of massacres like Deir Yassin “Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of “Irgun butchery,” were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated”.

The idea was to terrorize and “encourage” the Arabs to leave or they would get more of the same. The irony was lost on Begin, who in wanting to “avoid more Treblinkas” (Nazi concentration camp), behaved just like the Nazis.

So when some Israelis and John Bolton (US ambassador to the UN) say there is no moral equivalence between the actions of Israel in killing thousands after 2 soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah (remember it all started with the killing of the Palestinian family on the beach by an Israeli shell in early June) and the response by the Palestinians or Hezbollah, we should not hesitate to tell Israelis the death of a person does not mean more if that person is Jewish. The death of any human being is important, even if they are not Jewish. The Israeli government does not have any moral or special superiority over other countries, nor should it carry out with impunity any action it pleases because right is might and that’s the only language those Arabs can understand! :rolleyes:

Many Israelis would like the Arabs “transferred” elsewhere. I believe Adolf Eichman also used this term when commenting on the “transfer” or “transport” of Jews in trains and cattle wagons.

It is worth remembering the response by Irgun and the Stern Gang to the UN mediator Count Bernadotte of Sweden (same country as Wallenberg who saved many thousands of Jewish lives from the Nazis) after he recommended to the U.N.”the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date.”

He was murdered next day in an operation directed by Yitzshak Shamir (later Prime Minister of Israel). “We won’t deal with terrorists”. What do this think they were then (and who later led Israeli governments)? But I guess there is no “moral equivalence” even when doing the same things as Palestinians!

Even the US does not recognise the annexation of East Jerusalem by Israel, nor does the rest of the international community. Every country (other than El Salvador) has their embassy in Tel Aviv and not in Jerusalem. East Jerusalem can be the capital of a Palestine comprising only 22% of the original.

Regarding the UN and Israel, you might want to hear the other side of the story. You might disagree with some of it, but I’m sure that it just can’t be ignored:
http://www.adl.org/international/Israel-UN-1-introduction.asp.

Erez, my friend, I’m sure you will agree that any right-minded person seeking the truth would always look at every side of a story. So thanks for bringing to people’s attention the Anti-Defamation League’s site; it has some valid points about the UN (why they arose is another story) and whilst I don’t agree with quite a lot of it, it is always good to see another viewpoint. While talking about how biased the UN is, they might also wish to point out that it was actually a UN (!) resolution that called for the partition of Palestine into two states: Israel and Palestine! 😉

Jewish writers and journalists that have spoken far more eloquently on this subject than I ever could. Men such as Amos Oz, a man of strong moral stature (ironically he changed his name to Oz, strength in Hebrew), Professor of Literature at Ben-Gurion University in Be’er Sheva, who is respected and admired throughout the World (winner of Goethe Prize 2005).

Oz served in the Israel Defence Force with a tank unit in Sinai in 1967 and on the Golan Heights in 1973. Since then, he has been at the forefront of the peace movement in Israel. While I may not necessarily agree with all of his views, he put it best when he wrote in his essay “How to Cure a Fanatic”, is what we are talking about is basically a real estate or land dispute.

1) Zionism started a lot before the holocaust (around 50-70 years, depends how you look at it). The holocaust itself was not a reason for the creation of Israel, but it was the greatest example of antisemitism and persecution of Jews, who therefore needed their own homeland.

The Italian chemist, Primo Levi, always appealed to me as I studied Biochemistry at University (though sadly I’m now in Finance!). Levi survived Auschwitz because he worked in the Buna laboratory that produced synthetic rubber – only because he knew some german (a lot of Chemistry and Biochemistry scientific journals are in german) and because of his training. After the war he wrote ‘If This Is a Man’ (Se questo è un uomo) and later ‘The Truce’ (La tregua). The evil that lives in the hearts of men and the cruelty they are capable of carrying out is laid out clearly in those memoirs of the holocaust. No thinking person can look at the Nazis’ inhumanity and their persecution of Jews with anything but revulsion.

The point is the holocaust WAS one of the major drivers for the realisation and creation of the State of Israel by the victors of the second world war on land that was already occupied by Arabs and had been for generations. So when you say later the Jews didn’t fall out of the sky into Palestine, yes they did! While I might even agree with a notion of a homeland for the Jews, certainly not in a place where there is someone there already!

There were only ever a few tens of thousands of Jews in Palestine in the early 1900s; most of the 12 million Jews then lived in Russia, Poland, America and Eastern Europe and many of the European (Ashkenazim) Jews are actually descended from Khazars, converts in the 7th to 11th century in Southern Russia, Ukraine,Crimea, causcaus states (Judaism was state religion of the Khazars, a Turko-Finnish people, you’ll love being related to Gollevainen! :p ) and from mitacondrial DNA studies are not even semites! Middle-eastern origin Jews, the Mizrahi (not talking about Sephardic Jews from Spain or Portugal) are a very small minority in Israel along with their fellow semitic Arabs (both Christian and Muslim) but you will know more about this than I ever could!

As for Palestine being the home of the Jews for a few hundred years a couple of thousand years ago, yes it was- I agree with you! We all know about King Herod, a historical figure for whom we have tons of evidence. Interesting though that no archealogical evidence found for King David at all!

If you go further back, the true home of the Jews (and their fellow semites, the Arabs) is the place where Abraham (common father of Jewish Isaac and Arab Ishamel) was born: the ancient Chaldean city of Ur in Northern Mesopotamia (straddles Modern day Iraq/Turkey), now in southeastern Turkey. Some of the “lost tribes” stayed in exile in what is modern day Iraq, so why not stake a claim for a homeland there because your ancestors originally were from there! 😀 :diablo:

2) Zionism never used any god given promises to justify its existance and the creation of Israel. A brief look at the declaration of establishment of the State of Israel will show you the reasons stated by the Zionist leadership for the creation of Israel, and will also show you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel].

Forgive me Erez, but you are being slightly disingenuous again, as you were when you said to Grey Area that the Jewish public did not support the terrorism against the British army and Arabs that helped establish Israel, when the same Jewish public voted the former terrorist leaders Menachem Begin (Irgun) and Yitshak Shamir (Lehi/”Stern Gang” who unbelievably told the Nazis they would join with them against the British in exchange for allowing Jews to come to Palestine!) in as Prime Ministers! These were the direct antecedents of the Heruts and Likud parties.

The raison d’etre of Israel is as a Jewish State, based on religion. You would do well to look up one of the most famous quotes of David Ben Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” (David Ben Gurion, Israeli Prime Minister 1948-1963).

If, like me, you don’t believe the Bible when it says Abraham, father of the Jewish people, lived for 175 years and he was born 2,000 years after the world was “created” in 4004 BC (I believe the Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old 😉 ), then I wouldn’t be happy if someone quoted the Book of Numbers to justify the Jewish claim to that bit of Earth! (if, by the way, you actually read the Book of Numbers today, it seems amazingly narrow and parochial in its subject matter, dealing with the goings on of just one tiny group of people, as against the problems of the rest of humanity!)

You say your link to the Israeli Foreign Ministry website shows you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants. Well, your link also does not mention what Yitzhak Rabin, said in an uncensored version of his memoirs, published in the New York Times (23 October 1979):

‘We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question – What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said “Drive them out!” 😀 :diablo:

Yitzhak Rabin, Prime minister of Israel, in his memoirs in Hebrew, Pinkas Sherut, mentioned something in the 1948 war that had troubled him ever since: the forced expulsion by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) of 50,000 Palestinians from Lod-Ramle. An Israeli cabinet committee ordered this section be removed against Rabin’s wishes, but this was revealed by the English translator and published in The New York Times. So much for not forgetting the Arab inhabitants! 😮 😮

Regarding the way to make peace with the Palestinians, that’s a very simplistic analysis, but basically all I could say is that the road for peace will demand concessions from both sides – not just from Israel.

You might say it’s a simplistic analysis; actually, it is an analysis by the Jewish writer Amos Oz, who stated that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not a war of religion or cultures or traditions, but actually a real estate dispute- that will be resolved not by greater understanding, but by painful compromise!

He further added, that “Two Palestinian-Israeli wars have erupted in this region. One is the Palestinian nation’s war for its freedom from occupation and for its right to independent statehood. Any decent person ought to support this cause.

The second war is waged by fanatical Islam, from Iran to Gaza and from Lebanon to Ramallah, to destroy Israel and drive the Jews out of their land. Any decent person ought to abhor this cause.” (Amos Oz, April 7, 2002)

I don’t believe in any organised religion, Jewish, Muslim or Christian, so of course I’m with Amos Oz against ANY extremists or those that would impose their beliefs on the rest of us, so convinced are they that they are right! But let’s not confuse the issue by invoking this when this is really about someone coming and taking your land! What would you do in their shoes?:)

No one stole anything. This land did not belong to the Arabs..

Now you really are making fun of us! 😀 😀 In your heart of hearts you must know that to say this land did not belong to the Arabs is ridiculous! Even Ben Gurion said (see above quote) we stole the land from the Arabs! Who do you think owned the land under the Ottomans or the British ? No one!? This is funny especially after you also wrote:

Jewish settlements before 1948 were always established over land legally bought from the local Arab sheikhs.

You seem to accept the Arabs must have had title from someone, be it from Ottoman times or under the British Mandate (interestingly ordinances from the British mandate are apparently still used to sequester Arab land, particularly around Jerusalem, the city where Amos Oz was born and he knows better than many what really happened – half his books are set within a few miles of where he was born in Jerusalem). This title to the land is still valid even after the State of Israel was declared in 1948.

I hope you live long and prosper Erez, but I suspect this might prove difficult if you close your mind to what you deep down know is a cruel injustice to the Palestinians. They’re not going to sit quietly and take it forever and unless there is a meeting of minds and mutual compromise (including now, however unfair to the Palestinians, acceptance of Israel) there will never be peace.

Alright, then prove the so called “almost-Arab-slavery”

I can understand Hurrifan’s frustration boiling over because even Jewish sources know the truth of Palestinian workers having to get up at 2am or 3am to get to a checkpoint at 4am in the hope of being a labourer or work on a construction site in Israel. Often IDF personnel slap, kick or insult, or make them wait without reason under the blazing sun. At times, beatings led to severe injury or shooting of a car and the death of a worker. Most of the “light” abuse remains unreported, either because of fear of filing a complaint or because of the difficulties involved in doing so. But don’t take my word for it, this is from Yehezkel Lein, a Jewish activist.

The question you must ask yourself Erez is what would you do if your life was lived under this daily humiliation, with no means to provide more than a subsistance existence for your family and no hope for the future?

The root reason for the lack of an Arab Palestinian nation in this land is their original lack of willingness to accept the UN’s partition plan, and their declaration of war over Israel.

That might have something to do with the fact that all of a sudden, the land they lived in was being given to someone else for absolutely no good reason…

Besides, nobody can fault the Palestinians for ignoring the UN. Israel does it all the time. Or did they leave the Golan?

What are the reasonable Palestinian demands? (I’m not even talking about the exremists’ demands) They demand the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and Jerusalem as their capital.

Right of return is reasonable. Expecting the return of East Jerusalem to serve as their capital is reasonable.

Gaza is no longer physically controled by Israel

That is seriously up for debate.

Tell me, then, didn’t Israel compromise enough?

When did they compromise?

The root reason for the lack of an Arab Palestinian nation in this land is their original lack of willingness to accept the UN’s partition plan, and their declaration of war over Israel. The Israelis declared independence – the Arabs were busy declaring war. Which, once more, they lost.
They got other chances through history to gain independence and missed them all. Remember that between 1948-1967 the entire West Bank and Gaza strip were controled by Arab states – why didn’t they struggle for independence then?
And then there was the PLO, which later evolved to the Palestinian authority, led by Yasser Arafat. Arafat could have been the Palestinian Ben Gurion. His tragety, which is the historical tragety of his nation, was that when he was closest to independence he once more chose war, in the form of terrorism against Israel.

Yeas the warcard…Tell me, If suddenly some bigger instance tell you that your land is now divided between you and these new commers, becouse their religion says that the land belongs to them. Once you had the whole land then suddenly you need to give away half of it…I don’t know about you but I certainly would be waging war…

Tell me, then, didn’t Israel compromise enough?

Israel has given only charity to palestinians…just that guys like you can say “look we have given them…” If Israel would be really devoted to the peacfull solution of this conflict, there wouldn’t be any violence left…Just look Northern Ireland and Baski separatists, IRA and ETA are merely marginal groups and the majority of the population living i those areas doesen’t support them…you know why???

cop yourself on will you…..

look at the head line on the site,

“to stop the defamation of the JEWISH people “(not the Palistinians or other Arabs)

and thats before you start to read the rest of the crap contained within!!!

facts me ****!!!

What’s wrong with fighting the defamation of the Jewish people? wasn’t there enough of it through history, or today?

If you want to relate to the content of the website and prove what kind of crap it is, be my guest. Until then, your arguments earn no credit from me and are, once more, way too simplistic.

thanks for FINALLY admitting your error…..

It WAS a homeland , a homeland to those who had been there for generations,The Palistinians.

and your use of the word ” considered ” is another admission..You were basing your claims on historical conjecture not hard fact..

If that was an acceptable argument surely we should all hand the land back to the the original occupants….Australia given back to the Aboriginals…and oh dear, oh dear..America back to the Indian nations….CRIKEY there goes your bank roll !!!

An error? whose error? the idea that this is a homeland for two nations was accepted by the UN, the Zionist leadership who accepted the UN plan, as well as the rest of the world.
And it was my personal opinion for a very long time. So, I’m not “admitting” anything.

The ancient history of the Jews and their connection to this land IS HARD FACTS, not “historical conjecture”. Or do you want to start denying history now, or alter it to suit your views?

And no, before you start, I’m not talking about anything related to religion. I’m talking about the FACTS, that Jewish/Israelite kingdoms existed in this land in the past for centuries, that they were destroyed by foreign powers, that the Jews of Judea have been forcibly exiled from the land by the Romans almost 2000 years ago and that the modern day Jews are the descendants of these people.

About giving the land in the world to its original native people, that’s practically impossible in the post-imperialist world. The only place that it was possible and has been done successfuly was the UN mandate of Palestine-Land of Israel.

WRONG AGAIN…..

The duristiction over the land was stolen by the British empire… anyone with the slightest knowledge of law will tell you that if you are in receipt of stolen goods you cannot receive a better title to them than those who gave them to you…simplistic i know but i thought it might make it clearer for someone who is blind to the obvious….

Wars are fought, lands are conquered, juristriction today is obsolete tomorrow. That’s the way the world has been working for ages. Especially in this land. Heck, the Arabs who originated from the Arabian peninsula invaded it as well like countless nations before them.

Do you really want me to bring you the list of known people who lived here and/or controled the land?
I’m not sure it’s a full list, but off the top of my head:

Canaanites (including Jabusites and others)
Israelites (including later on Judeans, Jews)
Philistines (other than the name, completely unrelated to Palestinians)
Assyrians
Babylonians
Persians
Romans
Arabs
Mamlukites
Crusaders
Turks
British
Israelis
Palestinians

And I probably missed one or two.

and partition doesnt work…never has…the English tried it in Ireland over 400 years ago and we are still trying to solve the mess…look what happened in south africa…how manyndead did that take? and they ended up dealing with the freedom fighters( sorry suppose you would prefer to call them Terrorists)

Where the land was bought fair eough…but you cant establish a state like that old son!!!! would be great if you could..we could all decide on our own incometax rates etc!!!

Israel is not going away. The Palestinians are not going away. It’s obvious that the only working solution is in the form of partition, whether we like it or not.

AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN………PROBS WITH THE READING SPEC’S ????

WHAT PART OF THE WORD ” ALMOST ” DONT YOU UNDERSTAND???? AND I NOTE YOU DID NOT ADDRESS THE MURDER OF TEN OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR ARAB BROTHERS.

and as for looking dumb mate you do it soo well couldnt hope to match you!!!!

Alright, then prove the so called “almost-Arab-slavery”, a weird new term by the way.

I don’t happen to have Arab brothers. Do you happen to have Jewish brothers?
And which murder are you talking about? I don’t think that the total number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel since its creation comes close to “TENS OF THOUSANDS”.

BIT LIKE A BROKEN RECORD…..DO ALL SPOKESPEOPLE FOR ISREAL LEARN THE SAME TATICS?

shout , roar, rant, rave, try to bully ???? i think you , sir or is it madam?, are what we have come to expect from those who will excuse any excess , any level of thuggery and murder in the name of the good of the Nation…its an awfull echo from the past ..dont take soo many lessons from your American paymasters!!!

I for one don’t shout, roar, rant or try to bully. How on earth could you think I do all that when all you can do is READ what I WRITE here?
I have an answer for that, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But what I think is that you wrote that because that’s the dumb image of Israelis that you have, sir – and I don’t care how much you write that “you have no problem with Israelis”.

and a wise man knows when to admit that he is wrong…so how about showing some level of intelligence?

Funny, and all this time I’m waiting for you to do the same.

ANOTHER SIMPLISTIC FACT FOR YOU TO DWELL ON ,…

Most of the rest of the free world cant be wrong……who supports your governments stance? who thinks you are in the right?…..

and before you go off on another rant…WE dont have a problem with the Isreali people of whatever belief ,or none, its your GOVERNMENT and its murderous ways that have been the problem for almost 60 years…

Can you explain me the stance of the Israeli governments? and which issue are you referring to?

Yeas…but how come only the Israelian claims to that homelands are fullfilled? No matter how you try to twist the history, Arabs lived in that area centuries before the state of Israel (as we know it now) was formed. And no matter what justification you might think that the israelians had, there still where arabs living there and they where driven form their homes. And thats the root of the conflict. The jews claim for that piece of land are based on controversial past and religious panflets where as the Arabs claims where based on solid physical facts, means they actually lived there when the decicion was made. It was the imperialistic and racial policy of western nations that allowed the arabs claim being dismissed in order the get the western worlds hands clean for their past crimes against jews. If the jews should have a homestate, it would have been formed in some place that requires no ethical purification of the natives. At least if it should have been done so if you want to call it justice…

The root reason for the lack of an Arab Palestinian nation in this land is their original lack of willingness to accept the UN’s partition plan, and their declaration of war over Israel. The Israelis declared independence – the Arabs were busy declaring war. Which, once more, they lost.
They got other chances through history to gain independence and missed them all. Remember that between 1948-1967 the entire West Bank and Gaza strip were controled by Arab states – why didn’t they struggle for independence then?
And then there was the PLO, which later evolved to the Palestinian authority, led by Yasser Arafat. Arafat could have been the Palestinian Ben Gurion. His tragety, which is the historical tragety of his nation, was that when he was closest to independence he once more chose war, in the form of terrorism against Israel.

I know thats in the past now and cannot be undone. I don’t whis Israel being whiped out to the sea nor anyones homes being taken away (I know how that feels and I don’t wish it to anyone). But Israelians needs to aknowlidge the facts that I mentioned above in order that the conflict could be solved. You’ve said it by yourself that the ultimate peace needs compromising form both sides, but you (and many other Israeli supporters) mainly point out the arabs direction…where are the Israelian compromises? What are you will to let go????

What are the reasonable Palestinian demands? (I’m not even talking about the exremists’ demands) They demand the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and Jerusalem as their capital.
Gaza is no longer physically controled by Israel (and let’s not start another debate there, whether it’s still an occupation or not). Israel through the entire peace process was willing to give the Palestinians over 90% of the West Bank territory. A settlement was almost reached in Jerusalem.
Tell me, then, didn’t Israel compromise enough?

The British conquered it from the Ottoman Turks during World War I. And then they were given the mandate by the League of Nations.

Yeas, another imperialist conquere a piece of land form other imperialist…very legimate and moraly approved don’t you think?

what I’m saying is that they aren’t the only ones who have that right.

Yeas…but how come only the Israelian claims to that homelands are fullfilled? No matter how you try to twist the history, Arabs lived in that area centuries before the state of Israel (as we know it now) was formed. And no matter what justification you might think that the israelians had, there still where arabs living there and they where driven form their homes. And thats the root of the conflict. The jews claim for that piece of land are based on controversial past and religious panflets where as the Arabs claims where based on solid physical facts, means they actually lived there when the decicion was made. It was the imperialistic and racial policy of western nations that allowed the arabs claim being dismissed in order the get the western worlds hands clean for their past crimes against jews. If the jews should have a homestate, it would have been formed in some place that requires no ethical purification of the natives. At least if it should have been done so if you want to call it justice…

I know thats in the past now and cannot be undone. I don’t whis Israel being whiped out to the sea nor anyones homes being taken away (I know how that feels and I don’t wish it to anyone). But Israelians needs to aknowlidge the facts that I mentioned above in order that the conflict could be solved. You’ve said it by yourself that the ultimate peace needs compromising form both sides, but you (and many other Israeli supporters) mainly point out the arabs direction…where are the Israelian compromises? What are you will to let go????

And by the way – we live in a world where (at least officially) you can be whatever you want. Being a Jew unlike being a Christian of a Muslim also incorporates an integral national identity. So, if your country’s Jews chose to retain their Jewish identity, it doesn’t mean they aren’t loyal citizens of Finland, but it does mean they are members of their own national group.

Thats bit controversial statement as I at least belive that the enviroment makes your nationality, not the blood that runs in your veins. You are born and race in Finland, you are finnish, no matter what colour is your skin…

Ahhhh….. there’s a small but vital difference between criticising a person’s views and criticising the person who holds those views.

I do agree that the example you mention is not very polite, though.

Let’s try and keep things civil and respectful, chaps! Apart from anything else, concentrating on what people say rather than what we may think they are makes for a far more interesting debate.

Thanks

GA

You’re starting to take this a little too personally, Hurrifan, and you were dangerously close to insulting your fellow forum members in that last post.

Calm down, old chap. Think of your blood pressure.

GA

ok GA!

but i think having your views described as a pile of whatsit is pretty insulting! 😡

A Moment of Moderation.

You’re starting to take this a little too personally, Hurrifan, and you were dangerously close to insulting your fellow forum members in that last post.

Calm down, old chap. Think of your blood pressure.

GA

“Not every website that contains opinions other than your’s is propaganda.
I just said that this website contains a different nerative, the one you don’t like – but like every nerative it also contains important facts.”

cop yourself on will you…..

look at the head line on the site,

“to stop the defamation of the JEWISH people “(not the Palistinians or other Arabs)

and thats before you start to read the rest of the crap contained within!!!

facts me ****!!!

“No one stole anything. This land did not belong to the Arabs. It didn’t belong to the Jews either. It was UN mandate administrated by Great Britain.
The two main groups of inhabitants, though, were Arabs and Jews. Each side had its own national aspirations concerning the land, and each had justficiations for these. What you fail to realize is that this was a homeland for two nations – not just one. For the Arabs, the place they were borned in, and for the Jews, the birthplace of their ancestors. Jews didn’t fall out of the sky over there. They came for a reason – and the reason is that they considered this land to be their homeland. And every historical evidence does point that this indeed was the historical birthplace of the Jewish nation.”

thanks for FINALLY admitting your error…..

It WAS a homeland , a homeland to those who had been there for generations,The Palistinians.

and your use of the word ” considered ” is another admission..You were basing your claims on historical conjecture not hard fact..

If that was an acceptable argument surely we should all hand the land back to the the original occupants….Australia given back to the Aboriginals…and oh dear, oh dear..America back to the Indian nations….CRIKEY there goes your bank roll !!!

“The rightful solution for this problem was partition. The problem is, while the Jews declared their independence over the part given to them by the UN, the Arabs did not, and moreover, attacked the newly formed Jewish state. And lost the war.
I’ll also add that the Jewish settlements before 1948 were always established over land legally bought from the local Arab sheikhs.

So, your whole concept of “stealing the land” is completely baseless and is a result of historical ignorance.”

WRONG AGAIN…..

The duristiction over the land was stolen by the British empire… anyone with the slightest knowledge of law will tell you that if you are in receipt of stolen goods you cannot receive a better title to them than those who gave them to you…simplistic i know but i thought it might make it clearer for someone who is blind to the obvious….

and partition doesnt work…never has…the English tried it in Ireland over 400 years ago and we are still trying to solve the mess…look what happened in south africa…how manyndead did that take? and they ended up dealing with the freedom fighters( sorry suppose you would prefer to call them Terrorists)

Where the land was bought fair eough…but you cant establish a state like that old son!!!! would be great if you could..we could all decide on our own incometax rates etc!!!

“This is about the largest pile of $hit I’ve heard for a long time. If you want to prove that there was Arab slavery in Israel at any given time in history, please, be my guest and try. Just be ready to look dumb. “

AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN………PROBS WITH THE READING SPEC’S ????

WHAT PART OF THE WORD ” ALMOST ” DONT YOU UNDERSTAND???? AND I NOTE YOU DID NOT ADDRESS THE MURDER OF TEN OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR ARAB BROTHERS.

and as for looking dumb mate you do it soo well couldnt hope to match you!!!!

“They say that a wise man knows enough to know he knows nothing about anything. If you truly think that you know exactly how to make peace and what is the correct way which would really work, I think you know absolutely nothing.

”

BIT LIKE A BROKEN RECORD…..DO ALL SPOKESPEOPLE FOR ISREAL LEARN THE SAME TATICS?

shout , roar, rant, rave, try to bully ???? i think you , sir or is it madam?, are what we have come to expect from those who will excuse any excess , any level of thuggery and murder in the name of the good of the Nation…its an awfull echo from the past ..dont take soo many lessons from your American paymasters!!!

and a wise man knows when to admit that he is wrong…so how about showing some level of intelligence?

ANOTHER SIMPLISTIC FACT FOR YOU TO DWELL ON ,…

Most of the rest of the free world cant be wrong……who supports your governments stance? who thinks you are in the right?…..

and before you go off on another rant…WE dont have a problem with the Isreali people of whatever belief ,or none, its your GOVERNMENT and its murderous ways that have been the problem for almost 60 years…

What I was trying to say was that in which right did the British own the palestinian?

The British conquered it from the Ottoman Turks during World War I. And then they were given the mandate by the League of Nations.

So what about those arabs living in the same area? Doesen’t they have the right to call that piece of land to homeland as well? What makes Israelians more privileged to the area? Becouse the bible says so??

I don’t think you read what I write carefully enough. Maybe if you do that, you’ll see that I’m not saying they have no right to call it their homeland – what I’m saying is that they aren’t the only ones who have that right.

Funny thing, but the jews in here consider Finland as their homeland…but at least few of them, mainly the two most famous finnish jews Ruben Stiller and Ben Zyskowitch should move to Israel, it would make our lifes much more pleasent (But it has nothing to do with them being jews, that only gives them a place to go. The actual reason is that they are just plain idiots…) 😉 😎

Again, you’re not reading what I write well enough.
Note that I said “was always considered by Jews” and not “was always considered by the Jews”. Understand the difference there?

And by the way – we live in a world where (at least officially) you can be whatever you want. Being a Jew unlike being a Christian of a Muslim also incorporates an integral national identity. So, if your country’s Jews chose to retain their Jewish identity, it doesn’t mean they aren’t loyal citizens of Finland, but it does mean they are members of their own national group.

Funny how you chose to use the “chosen people” instead of Jews.

Thats just me and my sarcams…

And the rest of the people who lived here weren’t minor, not by far.

-:-

And there were nearly no British people who lived here, except for the people who were responsible to run the mandate. The British Imperialism in the Middle East and North Africa, unlike its French counterpart, did not include the mass settlement of British people in the Empire’s territories.

What I was trying to say was that in which right did the British own the palestinian?

Finland belongs to the people of Finland. I’m not really familiar with the history of your country, but I’m sure that it was always considered by the people of your nation as their homeland, just like the little piece of land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea was always considered by Jews as their nation’s homeland.

So what about those arabs living in the same area? Doesen’t they have the right to call that piece of land to homeland as well? What makes Israelians more privileged to the area? Becouse the bible says so??

Funny thing, but the jews in here consider Finland as their homeland…but at least few of them, mainly the two most famous finnish jews Ruben Stiller and Ben Zyskowitch should move to Israel, it would make our lifes much more pleasent (But it has nothing to do with them being jews, that only gives them a place to go. The actual reason is that they are just plain idiots…) 😉 😎

Do you know how funny you look when saying that?? (I don’t know what you look alike but most certainly not as funny when not saying anything like that… :p )

The dictionary definition of stealing:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:stealing&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Now, try to demostrate that in the history of Israel and the Palestinians, and I mean before 1967. What happened later is defined as occupation which of course changes the entire picture.

So apart of the “choosen people” and some minor natives, there was a natural dwellings of anglo-saxians in the holy land as well 😮 😮

Funny how you chose to use the “chosen people” instead of Jews. And the rest of the people who lived here weren’t minor, not by far.
And there were nearly no British people who lived here, except for the people who were responsible to run the mandate. The British Imperialism in the Middle East and North Africa, unlike its French counterpart, did not include the mass settlement of British people in the Empire’s territories.

Following your logic, FInalnd actually belongs to Sweden and the little piece of land that I happen to own is in reality a property of some Svenson living in Malmö???

Finland belongs to the people of Finland. I’m not really familiar with the history of your country, but I’m sure that it was always considered by the people of your nation as their homeland, just like the little piece of land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea was always considered by Jews as their nation’s homeland.

So, your whole concept of “stealing the land” is completely baseless and is a result of historical ignorance.

Do you know how funny you look when saying that?? (I don’t know what you look alike but most certainly not as funny when not saying anything like that… :p )

No one stole anything.

Really?

This land did not belong to the Arabs. It didn’t belong to the Jews either. It was UN mandate administrated by Great Britain.

So apart of the “choosen people” and some minor natives, there was a natural dwellings of anglo-saxians in the holy land as well 😮 😮

Following your logic, FInalnd actually belongs to Sweden and the little piece of land that I happen to own is in reality a property of some Svenson living in Malmö???

They say that a wise man knows enough to know he knows nothing about anything.

You know they also say that “A wise man don’t know how it fee-ee-eee-eeelss…to be thick as brick” 😉