the war for gas

I was under the impression that NATO got the U.S. involved. Remember, the U.S. president at the time was the liberal Mr. Clinton…and he can’t be viewed the same way Europe views Mr. Bush…no ties to the oil industry.
Liberals in America and Europe have been complaing that the U.S. waited too long to enter the conflict. The conservatives complain U.S. forces are still there.

Repeat after me…when in doubt …Blame America.

Actually that’s right. NATO was urged to to interfere in Ex-Yougoslavia and therefore only the US had the potential and enough ressources to do so.

This showed the need for EU to create a specific EU force. So far nothing new , they still talk , talk , talk….

Wasn’t it NATO?

When america was having the “war” with Serbia why didnt we attack there home land? Please someone tell me why we werte in a conflict that doesnt concern america?

I was under the impression that NATO got the U.S. involved. Remember, the U.S. president at the time was the liberal Mr. Clinton…and he can’t be viewed the same way Europe views Mr. Bush…no ties to the oil industry.
Liberals in America and Europe have been complaing that the U.S. waited too long to enter the conflict. The conservatives complain U.S. forces are still there.

Repeat after me…when in doubt …Blame America.

I will not get into other discussions about who is good or bad but i will just reply to Merlin’s first question :”Why didnt NATO attack Serbia from the ground?”.

Merlin do you know how many Serbian troops and armour and other weapons were there in Kosovo,concieled from airial attack waiting for the ground attack from NATO?Tens of thousands.The borders with Macedonia and Albania had minefields along the whole length,around 40 000 mines.Plus Kosovo is not flat like Iraq and our troops were well hidden and would even be able to have guerilla war against NATO. The NATO losses would have been unacceptable.

That is why they did not attack from the ground!

I’m sorry to desagree with you Merlin, I think you are way of. First, the B-2 isn’t a SEAD aircraft, the only SEADs are F-16CJ and Tornados, which have to fly low to launch their HARMS, putting the aircrews in great danger even with ECM and Jaming aircraft present, second, Oil isn’t the only profitable business. After an intense bombing campaign against country’s military and economic infrastructure, there are a lot of things left for rebuilding. I’m sure American companies got the bulk of the deals and then there is a hughe market to cove once the companies are in place. Take WW2 for instance, before the European war, the US was quite isolated from theire markets, and with the Marshall plan in place, the US penetrated the economic markets giving it a hughe market for its products. I hope my views will enlighten you on the prospects of a war: purely economic. That is why American lives are risked: business.

I cannot remember any war in history been lead for anything else than money or religion.. and football 🙂

Originally posted by merlin:

Then somehow this whole wars for gas and the poor “innocent” tyrant countries angainst other countries we still have not gotten our main goal out of all this bull. In case you havent noticed or left your computers, due to the fact some of your posts are nearly as long as a world war 2 book, go to the gas stations!!! Our whole idea of keeping gas prices failed.

Not that there are not enough conspiracy theories in this thread, but some U.S. official has boosted in his memoire that during the heat of the cold war (1980s I assume ?), one of the secret “weapons” the U.S. used against the Soviet Union was to deliberately keep the oil price down on the international market, so Russians could not get enough money from their oil exportation.

That was then, when two superpowers existed and you can argue that the U.S. manipulation of international oil market had at least some ideological background to it. Now, all the major oil fields are in American’s hands (forget about Saudi Arabia, OPEC and the ilks, they are run by big American energy companies) without the opposition from another superpower, but with all the uninbibited greed of American crony capitalism behind it, does anyone really expect the gas price will come down soon ? I do not. In fact, I consider it would be lucky if gas price can even stay. And this is the ugly truth behind the world’s #1 advocate of “free market” ! 😡

Now, something about aviation and Serbia: Serbians started digging out some unexplored U.S. bombs under the Chinese embassy. I wonder who will eventually get those ? 😀

RE: the war for gas

Amen to that

There is very little to add to Tom’s reply , only maybe these serious questions ;

Krasnaya ;
– what is your meaning about the Serb claim that many NATO-jets were shotdown ? Do you belive this ?
– Do you belive the claim of Serb MiG-29 pilots (of the knight-sq) that they were shot at (by circling NATO-jets) while they were gliding down on their parashuts ?
– What ws for you the role of the Tigergoups lead by Arkan (BTW in your country a hero, in my country (Belgium) a criminal (bankrobbery,…) ?
– What were you fieling when you saw your people shelling and bombing innocent civilians in Sarajevo for years ? Did you feel any remorse ?
– What is yor own opinion about Milosevic, Mladic and Karadsic ?

Ah yes and the answer to your question about the 7000 killed ; i must admid it could be only 6 999

phantomforever

RE: the war for gas

LAST EDITED ON 16-Aug-00 AT 05:00 PM (GMT)[p]Krasnaya,
You’re right, you’re completely right!

And please permit my terrible person – even if being semi-literate – to apologize to you and tell the people here what actually happened in Yugoslavia, so you don’t have to write and tell so many truths here any more:

– the USA, the UK, France, Germany, Austria, Italy – simply the whole NATO and the EU, the International Court for War Crimes in Former Yugoslavia, Australia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morrocco, UAE (don’t remember all the other Islamic states which supported Bosnian Moslems), the UN, Croatia, Slovenia, Moslems in Bosnia, Albanians in Kosovo and in Albania, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Turks – as well as Phantomforever and me on this forum – we are all completely wrong!

– all those good Serbian people and Serbian nationality are our enemies and victims: at least 500 millions of people hate them, ignored them and still do the same. We all see everything only “black or white”, are all ignoring international laws, local laws, results of serious researches, all the good manners, reasonable human behaviour and thinking: we are all ignoring truth, semi-literate, searching for simple answers and criminal!

– Since 950 (not 1950) the whole Europe, Mongols and Turks haven’t done anything else but to attack Serbs and are constantly trying to destroy them as a nation. Their criminal acts went so far, that even several US fast-food restaurants – as well as one Cadillac store – were opened in Belgrade, while Germans were massively importing plastic granulates, woods and other goods from Yugoslavia and later attacked Dalmatinian and Montenegrinian beaches! The last deed was done every year in the middle of the summer: it was terrible!

– Because of this, in 1991 the NATO brought the decision that it was finally the time to invade Yugoslavia. During the preparations, several NATO’s secret services, foremost the CIA and MI6, started to organize the final genocide of the Serbs,

– Croatian-communist-partisan-general-Nazi-president Tudjman and the whole Nazi-Croat-nation was the first to help the CIA, Germans and the USA by destroying Serb economy! Tudjman and his supporters stole all the money, cars, tractors, TV-sets, video-recorders, refridgerators that could be found in Croatia, and even underwear of all the Croatian women. Because of this the Serbs couldn’t find anything of worth in Croatia when they invaded it during their heroic counteroffensive for the liberation of Serbia,

– during the Serb defence-battles in Croatia and Bosnia, over 1 million of Croat, Moslem and Serb refugies had to be rescued by Serbian troops,

– as their plans couldn’t become reality, Germany (whose only problem at the moment was the destruction of Yugoslavia) and the USA (where everybody also cried for supporting the Nazi Croat state and haven’t tought about anything else) restrained to other methods and started to work with Iran, which didn’t wanted to supply weapons either to Croats or Bosnian Moslems,

– because of this, flagrantly ignoring UN sanctions, Germans not only supplied Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Moslems with weapons during the war in Yugoslavia; no, in August 1995, two fully deployed panzer-divisions of the German Army attacked Canadian and British UNPROFOR units in Krajina, in order to keep the backs of the Croat Army free while those cleansed the last 250.000 Serbs from the area,

– War crimes against Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo by Nazi Croats, Bosnian Islamic extremists and Albanian Maffia are unbelivable and cannot be described, but everybody in the West is trying to hush this up in order to conceal its own engagement in this killings, especially the Pope and Western politicians,

– The organisation of the NATO, an organisation of 15 states ruled by corrupt, intrigant, ignorant – simply “bad” if you aprove – dictatorships and military juntas, ordered the killing and destruction of Serbs in Bosnia, in 1995, and the Serb nation, state and the country last year.

– NATO’s bombers couldn’t hit more Serb military targets – like tanks or planes parked on the ground – because the whole time they were engaged searching and targeting places where Serb civilians were hiding from them,

– and when the NATO didn’t managed to kill enough Serbs, it’s bombers started to drop cluster bombs on Kosovo in order to slowely kill innocent Albanians (especially children) and make Serbs responsible for this,

– when Italy showed first signs of being war-weary, NATO bombers started to bomb Italian fishery boats in the Adriatic with cluster bombs, and so blackmailed Italian government,

– because of NATO’s terrible, terroristic bombings of all the cities, villages and hamlets in Kosovo, over 700.000 Kosovo Albanians had to be evacuated to Serbia (the stupid semi-literate Western press said Macedonia and Albania, rubbish),

– more than a half of the NATO’s Peacekeeping Force in Macedonia deserted from there after the war with Yugoslavia started: actually, the Skopje airport couldn’t take all the NATO’s military refugies which wanted to board on one of the last remaining planes flying out of Macedonia. Belive me, it was more terrible than in Saigon, 1975,

– the NATO suffered such heavy aircraft losses during the Kosovo war last year, that most of its remaining fighters and bombers must be used now on air shows in order to show the population that there are still some of them remaining; this is an immense problem as remaining NATO’s crews don’t have a time or the chance to train properly any more,

– Over 200 NATO pilots (many of them female) are still being held in captivity by Yugoslavs, but the Yug government is not talking about this in public because the NATO promised to pay for rebuilding Serbia after the whole country was destroyed by its bombs,

– All the photoshops with photographic documentation of shot-down NATO aircraft were destroyed during the bombings, every single one of them just in the moment pics taken at crash sites have been developed,

– Most of the NATO pilots lucky enough to survive the war on Kosovo last year will now be brought to the court and sentenced for war crimes,

– The whole US government, and especially the two last presidents, Bush and Clinton, as well as Bosnian president Izetbegovic, will also be accused for war crimes and brought to the court for supporting Croat and Moslem war crimes; the same – and for the same reasons – will also happen with following well-known international criminals, wanted by Interpol:

Batman and Robin,
Ronald McDonald,
Jack Daniel,
Mickey Mouse,
Asterix and Obelix,
Rainhard,
Sohaya Yoga,
Sailormoon
and – not to forget the worst of all –

DUFFY DUCK!

RE: the war for gas

Merlin,
the side that is worse is the side that uses NBC weapons. The US is starting to build a new centre for defence against biological and chemical weapons which like the anti-typhus vaccine that is banned from being imported to Iraq, has a dual-use. I believe that the Western attitude towards Indian and Pakistani nukes is snobbery. 50 Years ago general MacArthur wanted to nuke the Chinese in Korea. Do you remember the Gulf War story that we had bombed a hanger full of L-29 trainers that were kitted up as drones to deliver chemical & biological weapons? Was it true or was it not? We will never know. In Britain at our NBC expert labs at Porton Down, RAF volunteers from the 50s to the early 80s were used as lab rats for all sorts of dodgy experiments. It’s all starting to come out now. Speaking of history, did you know that the RAF in 1922 bombed Iraqi villages with gas to put down a rebellion to British rule and that the ‘concentration camp’ was a British invention of the Boer war? One thing that truely makes Saddam Hussein a bad man is that he attacked the Kurds in the north with chemical weapons – I saw the film.

Regs,

KZ

RE: the war for gas

phantomforever:
So the Croatian Army burning Moslems out of their homes wasn’t organised. They were just on a picnic and needed a little light entertainment. Come on, WAKE UP! the BosMos or the Croats neither kept to their agreement. Srebrenica and Gorazde were never demilitarised, but used as UN protected guerilla bases to kill civilians in the surrounding villages. You could at least apply the same standards to what you say as what I said.

I do not ‘defend massmurdering of 7,000 people’ because it did not happen. As I stated before, ‘it didn’t say who was killed, it doesn’t say how they were killed, it doesn’t say how many were killed, it doesn’t say why they were killed, it doesn’t say if they were armed and it doesn’t say if they surrendered. No figures of any kind except guesswork. These are basic questions but nobody asks them, why?’ Why don’t you tell me how many bodies have been recovered in the last 5 years and how they dies. Come on, give me a figure? Did you actually bother to find out where this magical figure of ‘7,000’ comes from or do you just accept what you hear over the radio? I’ve still not found this ‘evidence’ from any source, have you?

Read the Comments by Martens Bronco, UN officer in Sarajevo, or read General Mackenzies book, Lord (failure) Steel’s book, or artillery expert and UN Deputy for personnel in Sarajevo Colonel Demurenko and the internal UN reports on what the BosMos government did to their own civilians – from cutting off water and electricity to murdering their own people for TV (i.e. for you).

You can quote Karadzic as much as you like but I won’t be impressed. His statment is common-sense. Did you think that Bosnia was going to turn in to a hippy commune?

The CIA was in Albanian from 1991 and has been operating there ever since. There are now over 100 or so ‘operatives’ in Albania. When anarchy hit Ablania through cause of the ‘pyramid’ money schemes collapsing, the CIA base was stripped bare and the operatives fled for their lives.

Your points about Milosevic starting it all by removing autonomy from K and V are equally pointless. Seen any ‘terrorist campaign’ in Vojvodina in the last 10 years? As I said to Tom, what went on goes way back before Milosevic turned up. Go and read some history books (plural). If you think that everything is so simple, you’ll only make me more worried.

Serbia lost because the worlds only super-power took sides because it was ‘in their national interest’. 10 Million people still gave the West the finger. You just wait until UNMIK soldiers start coming back in bodybags having been shot by the ‘dis-banded’ KLA (that is if the US soldiers are ever allowed off base). Maybe you’ll be happier when cut price KLA heroiin hits the streets of your city?

KZ

RE: the war for gas

Tom,
I was referring to the Media pushing the Simple Serbs EVIL, Moslems and Croats GOOD.

Your points on the Germans and Austrians forseeing the future doesn’t explain why Germany after holding a common EC position on the recognition of Croatiaand then proceeding to recognise Croatia unilaterally (for which foreign minister Genscher was made scapegoat and who also attended Tudjmans’ funeral in ‘a private capacity’), after the Vatican had done it of course. I can’t believe that the Croatians actually made a pop song about it ‘Danke Deutschland’ – it was terrible.

Without the connivance of the US, there would have been no Iranian 747 landing at Zagreb international. Where do you think Croatia got the second-line NATO stocks from? The camoflage scheme on the Croatian Mig-21s were inintally the same of that as the Ex-East German Airforce, even if the Croats had taken care to scrub off the serial numbers. German troops in Bosnia used UN vehicles to resupply the Bosnian Moslems, Ammunition was hidden under ‘humanitarian aid’, the UN observers witnessed American airdrops at Tuzla that happened throughout the war. Some of the weapons were indeed sold by Serbs to the Croats but this only goes to underline what an open arms-bazarre it was. I won’t even mention ‘Soldier of Fortune’… approved of by all official sources no doubt.

2) I did not mention conspiracy. You seem to think goverments are all good and benign and just want everyone to love each other. If you know anything about the Balkans, you’ll know that the major powers have never been able to resist meddling. I’ve met lots of very nice Croatian, Albanians, gypsies etc, but ask the Croatian people about WWII and you’ll get an initial blank look and then the same angry answer that a Turk would give you if you asked them about Armeninans and 1915.

3) You are confused, it’s the Serbs who are an endangered species in Kosovo. A Bulgarian UN worker was killed by a mob of Albanians for responding to a question about time in Serbo-croat with Serbo-croat.

Whether or not the Croatian Premier was born in a concentration camp, is really meaningless. It’s all about politics. When there was going to be a big conference on Genocide in Israel a few years ago, the Armenians were invited, only to have the invitation cancelled by non other than Eli Weisel, because of pressure brought to bear on him by an Israeli government that decided its relations with Turkey were far more important. Politics, politics, politics. It’s nice to see that you equate the Cetniks with the Ustasa, your sense of proportion is unbelievable. Ofcourse you don’t have to go to the genocide museum in Belgrade because you know it all – no point in looking at the photos of what went on in a real concentration/extermination camp is there?

You quote your two beloved books but answer this. Of the 140,000 Partisans in Croatia, how many of them were Croats? Does this just refer to the ‘territory’ of Croatia? You seem to forget that the partizans were guerillas, they did not stay anywhere very long because they would be destroyed by the Nazis/Ustase etc. if they were not mobile. Nedic’s authority hardly spread past the german soldier guarded building that he ‘ruled’ his fantasy land from.

Of course the Cetniks did nothing, they only thought of themselves. Of course some collaborated but if you think that everything is either 100% or 0% then I advise you see a doctor.

I read that you rubbish Djilas. That’s your perogative, but he is only ONE of my many varied sources and I don’t rely on him or anyone else singularly (he’s dead now). Obviously the fact that Tito threw him in jail as a dissident holds no cachet with you. As for the Generals I know, you assume that they are Serb and that you know who they are. You are wrong. Your point on Croatia’s ‘Independent territory’, it’s recognition in International law was Illegal – its’ leader has to have the support of its people (yes), control over its own territory (no), guaranteed rights of its minorities (definately not). But then again, who needs international law when you KNOW the truth?!!

4) The Croatian people wholehartedly backed Tudjman with symbols of their WWII fascist era which you choose blatantly to ignore. All sorts of fascist scum that fled after WWII such as ministers of Ante Pavelic’s government have returned from Argentina, Canada and Australia and have programmes devoted to their greatness on Croatian TV, squares renamed after them etc… The Croatian people hated all this of course… These are some of the same people who returned to Croatia in 1972 (or was it ’74?) during the ‘Zagreb Spring’ plastered with Ustasa symbols and waved their weapons about urging the Croatian people along the Dalmatian coast to rise up against Yugoslavia and re-institute the Ustasa state. As for crooks, you can’t be a politician in the Blakans without being ‘dodgy’ in some way or another.

Regarding the Krajina, do you think that they would have been allowed to stay there and not ‘ethnically cleansed’ if they were not fighting for their homes? Maybe they should have welcomed the black-shirted Croatian Police to come in to their homes so that they could sign their ‘oaths of loyalty’ and sign over any property they had to the Croatian state. You forget the lists of Serbs residents that were published in the daily papers so that everyone knew who to evict. Croatia is so ethnically pure that it needs no law to protect minorities. How many Gypsies, Jews, Serbs, Hungarians etc. are there now in the New Fatherland?

As for the Croatian Army rounding up people and kicked them out etc. go ask the British Army and try and recall that the Croats ethnically cleansed 250,000 Serbs from the Krajina. You obviously like to be selective with your information.

How many refugees are there now in the FRY? over 1 million, and not just Serbs, but all the other minorities that the multi-ethnic Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo didn’t want. One major point that you miss is why were the Moslems of Bihac lead by Fikret Abdic fighting with the Serbs and against the BosMos government for several years? Regarding your links, they are 10 a penny and again you are being selective as to what you read. What is your view about Amnesty International’s report calling NATO bombing a war-crime? I don’t even need to guess. Your ignore the words (para 3.) ‘Accurate figures cannot be establishment, but it is estimated ‘ and it does not say that they were ‘ethnically cleansed’ but that they ‘left’. You’re just a cherry picker. Do you really think that an NGO such as Helsinki would mix its words if it was ‘ethnic-cleansing’? Ever been to Subotica or the other towns in Vojvodina? They’ve got signs in just about every language possible (a sure sign of a campaign of ethnic purification). Tell me were i can find this in the New Fatherland and I’ll go and have a look.

5) Yet again you make a vacuous point. If Yugoslavia splits up, it’s hardly going to be over-run by terrorist sponsoring, fundamentalist Moslem Bulgaria is it? Do you think Iran would sit on its arse and do nothing if Iraq ripped itself to pieces?

6) I’ve see the rushes (full tape) of Penny Marshall’s and Ed Vulliamy’s master work on the Omarska camp. The camera man can be clearly seen going in to a barbed wire enclose electricity generator enclosure and filming from the outside in. Below the famous picture of the gaunt man behind the barbed-wire, was chicken wire. And did you ever question why the supporting bracket for the barbed-wire were on the wrong side? I’m not saying that people weren’t tortured or killed etc. but that it is an vastly over inflated story that gullible people love.

7 & 8) I’m not working hard, just trying to enlighten the ignorant and get them to question their own convictions a little instead of just repeating very selective information and offering fuzzy opinions. Your point about the consitution is a waste of space. I could easily find a number of Human Rights groups and pressure groups etc. in the US who could dig up the US Consistution and quote the same crap. Of course you ignore my point about the US of A refusing to support the UN International Criminal Tribuneral – couldn’t possibly have an American on trial could we. Oh, and by the way, the news that US troops slaughtered civilians at the beginning of the Korean War is of course not a war crime. You also ignore the points I raised on the Comedy Tribunal in the Hague.

9) I wish I had your certainty about NATO intervening earlier. You seem to forget that this is the Balkans. ‘It would have been better if…’ is a phrase far too often used. How would I know ‘how many would have been safe’? Maybe your stars tell you it would have been the Balkan decade of peace and love! ‘Do I realize?’ are you from another planet or another dimesion where NATO bombed Milosevic (you mean the Serbs) and everyone was happy clappy. You grasp on Balkan history seems to be extremely weak and what is you obsession with Milosevic? You seem to forget about Tudjman and Izetbegovic, who of course did nothing wrong and are really lovely people. Give me a break.

Kosovo was a problem long before Milosevic turned up. Go look up the demographic figures in a encyclopaedia from 1961 and one from 1991. Maybe you thought that they all held hands and loved one another when Tito was alive. The Serbs were bombed because the West did not know what to do. Bombing was the easiest option because it required no intelligent thought – we can now see how the bombing situation has ‘improved’ in Kosovo. Your hypocrisy over GENOCIDE is amazing. On the one hand you demean the 750,000 Serbs murdered by the Ustasa as not genocide because the Jews don’t say so, but 40,000 dead in Bosnia and at the latest estimates 4,000 in Kosovo (from all causes) constitutes Genocide. Have you got your thinking head on? You make David Irving look like a pussy cat. Are you actually thinking when you make statments like that? Maybe you get your figures directly from the State Department for all I know, after all it was Cohen who said that 100,000 Albanian men had dissappeared in Kosovo and were believed murderd by the Serbs (I won’t mention the Spanish forensic team who left Kosovo in disgust when their ‘bodies’ didn’t turn up).

The reason that I call you semi-literate is that you obviously can not get to grips with what has been going on let alone any sense of proportion. You just cherry pick your own information to support your own empty arguments. I thought that you could do better. I do not ignore inconvenient information because it suits me, but I question it or fit it into a proper sense of proportion.

11:) How many Croats do you see in Croatia standing at the side of the road selling plastic bottles of petrol to passing motorists? If the Croatian economy is f****d, it’ mostly their own and their billions of dollars stealing ex-Presidents fault – at least they still have an infra-structure and have not been bombed for ‘humanitarian reasons’. And where do you get this figure from. Are you taking the Serb USD 4500 from the Serb government (oooh, could it be propaganda) or is it just an estimate by the OECD? You seem to be so sure that Milosevic is getting much more than Tudjman. Post me your crystal ball. You ignore my point about Appendix B of the Rambouillet agreement (read it yet?) – Albright herself said that it was their plan for the Albanians to accept and the Serbs to reject so that they could start the bombing. As for German government giving a damn about USD 5 million, you think that is a GOOD reason for them not wanting to bomb. The Government probably paid them the money. You ignore the fact that it was the German military who announced to the world ‘Operation Horse-shoe’, or how the JA would ethnically cleanse Kosovo. Apart from it was spelt the Croatian way and that the basic report origiated from the Bulgarian secret service and finally, a German General publicly stated that they made it up.

Milosevic won in Kosovo because contrary to the Rambouillet dictat, the present agreement does not allow for a vote of independence for the Albanians, the laws of the FRY are still applicable and Kosovo is still legally part of Yugoslavia.

Your last point is true, but then again so did Tudjman, and Izetbegovic is too old to fight.

KZ

RE: the war for gas

o , merlin, don’t forget about what happened to the native american indians.

RE: the war for gas

soldier of fortune??? is that not the magazine that places ads for people who are trying hire assasins???,i don’t think i like that magazine!

RE: the war for gas

alright thanks for the info. So what america has done in Desert storm was to back up iran and there evil leader against iraq another evil leader country. Then we go with the Germans and other countries and get the serbs to help kosavo. Meanwhile a year later and kosavo still hasnt fully recovered. Then somehow this whole wars for gas and the poor “innocent” tyrant countries angainst other countries we still have not gotten our main goal out of all this bull. In case you havent noticed or left your computers, due to the fact some of your posts are nearly as long as a world war 2 book, go to the gas stations!!! Our whole idea of keeping gas prices failed. By the way i am an american for thouse who like to believe that i am a forien who doesnt know what i am talking about. Why dont you drive down to the gas station nearest you. Hell, the prices would be better if iraq had taken over all the midwest! Please again ask my age and nationality and go against my opinions to inlighty me more on yours. Why do you believe that our government saw chemical weapons in Iraq? Also who is worse us or them? Why should we trust a world power with nukes instead of a third world power? We have chemical weapons no one bombs the hell out of us? Also, if iraq was stupid enough to nuke them or gas them we would totally distroyed there country. Why dont we get involved with a bunch of other countries problems. Lets help liberate British controlled countries. Come on dont bother to tell me there is a difference between England sending troops to keep an island of theres versus Iraq taking Kuwait. Also just because America is a world power doesnt mean we should bomb iraq for chemical weapons. Go look at the history channel and see what things we have done. Dfuring the manhattan project we used radation on some people in hospitals and dont even start with the LSD drug tests they did on our troops. Why dont we send them marching after a nuke goes off and see the effects. We did all that in the 1950-70s. Also who is the only country who ever nuked another country? I am all for America and love my country but still look at what we have done before you judge other countries.

RE: the war for gas

I would say that it’s not the US that is acting like a drunk but Europe. Especially France and Italy are here to blame. same goes for the UN. a disgrace that Akashi could have made promotion after the Bosnia-conflict. A disgrace that Bernard Janvier was never punished. He is with his weak performances to blame(at least partly) for the disaster in Srebrenica.

After the Croatian and Bosnian humiliation Europe and US just didn’t want to make the same mistakes again. They saw that negotiating with Serbs wasn’t any good.

And remember Krasnaya that Serb crimes were organised, Croatian and Bosnian were not.
for instance ; the systematic rape of women, the massmurder in Srevrenica (7000 dead), organised starving the people by stopping foodconvoys, the systematic bombing of Sarajevo and so on

Karadsic himself said (before outbreak of bosnian war) that Croatia would seem like kindergarten compared with Bosnia

Please answer this question ; how do you defend massmurdering 7000 people ?

You can not say that the west has any links with the Albanians. To be honest ; we don’t like them either. But enough was enough. We simply couldn’t let Milosevic harass again innocent people. Don’t forget that the Yuguslave crisis started by Slobo ending the kosvo and Vojvodina autonomy.

And at the end what did Serbia gain ? Nothing, they lost 4 wars in less than 10 years ; Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and next maybe…..Montenegro ?

Phantomforever

RE: the war for gas

LAST EDITED ON 14-Aug-00 AT 06:19 PM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 14-Aug-00 AT 06:11 PM (GMT)

…and I tought this wouldn’t be needed…

Krasnaya, I’m now seriously considering to ask you to go to some of the nice Venik’s or Pavicevic’s sites and remain there.

1.) There is nobody simple pushing the story about evil Serbs and good Croats or Moslems, to contrary. So, Krasnaya, re-read my post.

The only reason the German and Austrian governments were supporting the separation of Slovenia and Croatia (and later Bosnia) was that both of them KNEW what was going on in Yugoslavia, while the rest of the West (as you correctly mentioned) DIDN’T.

Please, don’t tell me, that the US politics was searching for improving relations with the Islamic countries in helping Moslems in Bosnia: as a matter of fact, Iran, Egypt, Turkey and several others were there first (one of the first embassies in Sarajevo was Iranian, established in 1993), delivering weapons to Moslems. The US jumped then in 1994, trying hard to bring Croats and Moslems back together, in order to “save” them from coming under “Iranian influence” (it was you who mentioned Iranian B747F in Zagreb). For you to get more info, as you were certainly not there at the time, and you are actually spreading the Serb/Russian versions, I would like to suggest you to read several issues of Soldier of Fortune mag from this time (and no cries that this is a “extreeme right mag”, please). It’s a good start for you.

2.) You say that you never made any reference to conspiracy of the US, but you’re repeating that again. About the US press which is only happy to “play patsy” to the US government, I would like to suggest you to read a bit about the Watergate, Irangate, Shotdown of the Fligh 655, White Waters, Levinsky and other affairs….

3.) Yeah, Croatians are really fascist folks. When you’re walking on the streets there, you’re endangered species if they heard that you’re not Croat. Such rubbish: the same as if you would tell something similar for Serbs.

New Croat premier was born in German concentration camp and the new president spent his childhood during the WWII hiding in the forest to avoid being slaughtered by Chetniks and Ustasha. I don’t need to go visit the Genocide museum in Belgrade (not even Jewish society in Yug recognized it as such): there is – for example – one (almost destroyed by retreating Serbs, just like jewish cemetry in Belgrade), in Jasenovac.

Regarding the number of the Croats in partisan units:
“Vojni Lexikon” and “Vojna Istorija”, two pretty fat books written for academies of the former Yug Army somewhere in 1983, state that in 1942 there were some 140.000 Partisans in Croatia, and some 2.000 in Serbia. Most of the other Serbs were either with Chetniks or with the quisling Nedic government. If you like, I’ll be so kind and take a look for their losses.

The stories about anti-Nazi Chetniks are legends: yes, the guys sat two years and saw that Allies are not comming. In the meantime they massacred several thousands of Croats and Moslems in Bosnia (nobody is talking about this) and then started a war with “civil-war” with communist Partisans. Yes, Serb Chetniks were really anti-Nazi, lazy and doing nothing, they only colaborated with Germans…

Your source is Djilas? Dear Lord, neither Yug communists nor Serb nationalists wanted the man! He’s as honest and “straight” as Radovan Karadzic… McLean must’ve also changed his mind – only for you – since he wrote his memoirs. The next on the list of the people you talked with will be Tito himself, huh? The other Serb Generals you seem to know must’ve been the same who in 1995 declared to one Col. of Canadian bataillon with the UNPROFOR that they’re there to defend their Country, Yugoslavia. The only “wrong” thing about that was that they were standing on the ground of independent and internationaly recognized Republic of Croatia (in Medac pocket) at the time….

4.) The Croatian people wholehartedly backed – not Tudjman but their independence. Tudjman, the first Croat dissident that had the permission to travel abroad (in 1988), had the luck that he came as Croats abroad were willing to support anybody who promised to bring independence from Yugoslavia. When the other dissidents followed him later, they found that simply took all the money… But, Tudjman used this for his own business. One of his clossest co-workers, Milas, told once: if you’re in power (politically), you have to steal! That says everything about the character of the former Croat government.

By the way, attrocities and ethnic cleansings were clearly started by Serbs. Between 1991-95 Krajina Serbs (some 60.000 Serbs living in Croatia) already ethnically cleansed practically all non-Serbs living in area which they occupied resulting in over 277.000 registered refuges in Croatia (not talking about those not-registered)! I admit that I don’t know the exact number of people murdered but it runs in several hundreds….

Did you hear or see any example in which Croatian Army rounded up civilians in hundreds and thousands and forced them to leave their houses or simply shot at them, burned them in their own houses? Nope, no such incident has been reported by anyone, only Serbian troops did that…

At the beginning of 1993 the Red Cross published its figures on the number of refugees in the FR Yugoslavia. There were less than 9,000 only 1.6% of the total.

Ever been here http://www.helsinki.org.yu/ ? HCHR Croatia reported war crimes from 3.

Or here? http://www.helsinki.org.yu/god/emanj1.htm – over 40,000 Croats have been ethically cleansed from Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Vojovdina, Serbia, Kosovo) between 1991-1998 – and there wasn’t any war there – Croats (or Hungarians) DIDN’T rebel and formed their republic from part of Serbia demanding independence!!!!!

5.) In one post, you said that “A split up Yugoslavia is easier to control politically and economically than a unified Yugoslavia….” and then tell Patrick something completely contrary about Iraq. Come on, be serious.

6: Those pictures of starving and half-dying Moslems, taken in several Serb concentration Camps, well, those were “played” by Moslems too, huh?

7. and 8.) NEWS FLASH. You, Krasnaya, are really good, and if you really continue to work “this hard” further, I’m sure you’ll find better news some days, but also learn how to imporve your behaviour or discuss matters in public.

Now about Milosevic and his war crimes: as I couldn’t find any copy of the law suit the court in Den Haag is using, I used the constitution of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia:

Article 37
“In regions of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia inhabited by national minorities, the languages and scripts of these minorities shall also be in official use in the manner prescribed by law.”

But, how could such a peacefull and democratic man – like Milosevic – left Serb parliament forbide all the schools and universities in Serbia which learned on Albanian?

“Article 38
Censorship of the press and of other forms of public information shall be prohibited. ”

Strange, there are only news about closings of free press and radios, as well as confiscating their equipment coming from Serbia….

“Article 135
In wartime and peacetime, the Army of Yugoslavia shall be under the command of the President of the Republic, pursuant to decisions by the Supreme Defense Council.

Well, sorry, the guy was and still is the President of the Republic…

“The Supreme Defense Council shall be made up of the President of the Republic and presidents of the member republics.

“The President of the Republic shall preside over the Supreme Defense Council.

This means that Milosevic is responsible for war crimes made in former Yugoslavia by the Yugoslav Army and paramilitary forces comming from his own state EVEN ACCORDING TO HIS OWN, YUGOSLAV CONSTITUTION!!!!

Need more? OK.

“Article 136

The President of the Republic shall appoint, promote and dismiss from service officers of the Army of Yugoslavia stipulated by federal law; shall appoint and dismiss the president, judges and judge assessors of military tribunals and military prosecutors.

Source:
http://www.gov.yu/regulations/constitution/constitution

You should be very, very carefull when stating that I’m not researching but “only reading some press”…

9.) What are you actually talking about? Can you actually imagine what does it means that one human being was killed? Not to talk about 2 or or 3, or “thousands”? If NATO could have been stopped from attacking, do you realize how many thousands would have died in Kosovo? And how many would have been safe if NATO bombed Milosevic in 1991? Do you understand the meaning of your words?

What to hell should the West do with Kosovo in your opinion?
Sit there, doing nothing and think, “well ok, some Serbs opposed the genocide in Bosnia too, so let’s wait, maybe they’ll do something… some time…” The fact is, Serbia got bombed as a result of what its citizens had done – not what sombedoy in the West “thought”. I’m the first to admit that Serbians did experience violence at the hands of Albanians and that also pretty much every major ethnic group in former Yug republics has its hands dirty; but, Serbians are the ones that commited the genocide on the scale Europe hasn’t seen since 1945. In this Europe, which is trying to unite in order for all to live better!?!

If Albanians had the means to invade Serbia, besiege and shell the hell out of Beograd, and evict, kill, rape or imprison hundreds of thousands of Serbs, they would be bombed just as well. The West did what it thought it had to do to stop the “cleansing”. It’s another question if what it did was half-assed.

10.) Yes, I’ve been ignorant and semi-literate, but still able to read Yug constitution, find out that Milosevic is guilty for war crimes according to his own constitution, that he’s guilty for crimes and betryal of his own country and state. Strange, neither whole Yugoslavia (no worries, I’m not getting megalomanic) nor you or the lawyer you say you know were capable of finding such things, but are calling me semi-literate? Well, I really have to face certain facts: that is, that reasonable discussions with certain people are impossible.

11.) What’s the average yearly earning of an average Croat? USD 4.500. That of a Serb? some 1.500. Really, Croats are having it worse than Serbs, especially this summer on their nice Adriatic beaches by 35°C…. I told already that Tudjman and his clique stole all they could, but what is Milosevic and his family doing is much better, sure. The Serb economy was on a good way of recovering as he refused further negotiations with the NATO, you “expert”. Germans (yes the same which – you say – want to “destroy” Yugoslavia) were buying thousands of tons of plastic granulate in Pancevo as the war began. It was really in the interesst of their government to damage two of it’s own companies for some USD 5 million!

And let me finally tell you couple of further things:

I couldn’t find it right now, but there is an Article in the Yug Constitution which says something like: “No one has the right to acknowledge the surrender of the armed forces or of the country…” and another which says: “No person has the right to recognise the occupation of the country in whole or in part…”

(I really don’t understand why Serbs aren’t reading this!)

So Milosevic violated further two points of his own constitution in letting the NATO “occupy” Kosovo!

Krasnaya,
BY THEIR OWN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW (!) ALL YUGOSLAVS SHOULD BE FIGHTING AT THIS MOMENT AGAINST THE FORCES WHICH ARE TEMPORARILY OCCUPYING AN AREA OF YUGOSLAVIA (KOSOVO in this case). THIS IS WHAT THE PLAN OF OPSTENARODNA ODBRANA WAS FORMULATED FOR.

So Krasnaya, be so kind and tell me why is Milosevic not letting this constitution being executed? He’s a criminal even to his own state… or, as I said, he’ll do anything to remain in power.

RE: the war for gas

Here we go again.

Tom,
yet again you take my words out of context and manipulate their meaning.

1: By pushing the simple story of Serbs EVIL, Croat and Moslems GOOD, it was designed to facilitate their own aims. The Germans were highly active before the break up. Why did Hans Deitrich Genscher reditn from the Kohl government? Too old? The West did not try to intervene directly because it did not know what exactly was happening. US Gov. policy towards Yugoslavia was based on improving relations with the Moslem world, i.e. the the Russians had left a political influence vacuum in the Middle East and elsewhere that the Americans were only too happy to fill. After ‘winning’ the Gulf war the US Gov wanted to build on this, and what was better than to back two smaller groups within Yugoslavia who could be sold as ‘freedom fighters’ and escaping repression.

2: I never made any reference to ‘conspiracy’ or US master plan because there wasn’t one. They had an idea of what they wanted and made the rest up ‘on the hoof’. Whether Milosevic was held up as one of the people who ‘brought peace to the Balkans’, that proves nothing. All it shows is that it was convenient for the US Gov. to sell that line to the public through the media to accept their policies. It was a pragmatic, if not intirely temporary solution. The Press is only too happy to play patsy to the US Gov.

3: It was not ‘thousands of Jews, Serbs and others’ who were massacred, it was over 750,000. Go and visit the Genocide museum in Belgrade. The Croat Ustashe ran the Jasenovac camp (45 km2) independently of the Nazis and did not resort to anything fancy like gas chambers to murder its inmates. Croatian franciscan monks played a big part. Ante Pavelic’s plan was to Exterminate one third, expel one third and convert one third. It was a programme of murder. DON’T revise history. The vast majority of Croats who joined the Partisans joined toward the end of the war when it was obvious that they were going to loose. If they were so anti-Nazi, why don’t you tell me how many of them were killed by the Ustase and the Nazis? I have the above information from when I had a chat with Aleksa Djilas (Tito’s vice-president before he got thrown in jail) and Bill Deakin (of SOE who parachuted in to Yugoslavia with Sir Fitzroy Maclean) a few years ago. I also know two Generals who fought with Tito. Regarding the Cetniks, they did nothing but sit on their hands throughout the war (correction, they blew up one bridge). They did not fight on the Nazi side in any meaninful or quanitfyable numbers, unlike the Moslems, Croats and Albanians. I find it perverse that you demean the slaughter of the Serbs during WWII, and inversely augment the suffering of the BosMos with talk of concentration-camps.

4: The Croatian people wholehartedly backed Tudjman. They suffer collective memory loss of their cheering welcome for NAZI forces and their complicity in the Murders. Most did nothing and a few fought with the Partizans when it mattered.

5: A split up Yugoslavia is easier to control politically and economically than a unified Yugoslavia. Neither the US or Germany had a lot to loose from the destruction of Yugoslavia.

6: I did not declare the Serbs ‘victims’ or anything of the kind. I really do wonder if you read what I wrote. It is very easy to be selective over ‘atrocities’. Remember the story of a bus full of children that was shot up when it was trying to leave Sarajevo. We were told that they were all Moslem. It turned out that there were Serbs onboard as well. The first out break of violence in Sarajevo was when Moslem fighters shot up a Serb wedding. I make no apologies for people who commit atrocities as you are trying to paint me as saying, it’s just that some atrocity reports were deliberately buried. I got sick of the number of times seeing on TV ‘PICTURES OF MURDERED MOSLEMS’ when it is quite clear from their clothes and symbols that they were Serbs. I also got sick of the lying translators ‘I was in a camp’, became ‘I was in a concentration camp’. Of course if you don’t speak the language or know the cultures and tradition you wouldn’t pick it up….

7: Why should anything happen to the Serbs in Serbia? The Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia wanted the same ‘right to self-determination’ that the Croats and BosMos got. They were denied it by the Democratic West. You somehow expect a Serb living in Zagreb to feel happy when the new government adopts the same symobols it used during WWII, renaming the Streets after Ustase murderers, returning to the Ustase WWII currency the Kuna, sign ‘oaths of loyalty’ to the State(I’ve seen them) and evict Serbs from their jobs and flats. If the German government adopted a Nazi flag, kicked all the Jews out and adoped the Reichsmark, what do you think would happen?! Why would the Serbs in Bosnia want to live under the control of a Moslem government headed by a Fundamentalist like Izetbegovic and become a ‘minority’ with minority rights? As for your point about Vojvodina, the region there is tense, but no-one is being kicked out of their homes and jobs. I really do wonder where you get these ideas from. There are 100,000 Albanians living in and around Belgrade, the vast majority of Gypsies, Egyptians Jews and others living in Serbia. don’t try to tell me that Serbia is somehow as ethinically pure as Croatia or the Bosnian Moslem part of Bosnia. Why don’t you tell me how many minorities there are left?

8: NEWS FLASH. The Comedy Tribuneral is biased. Why set up a new tribuneral when there was already an International Criminal Tribunal run by the UN? The US is just about the only country in the world who refused to accept the courts jurisdiction.
Why are those accused guilty until proven innocent in contradiction of almost every country in the world? Why isn’t the BosMos Military commander of Srebrenica Naser Oric yet indicted or Izetbegovic (for mortaring his own people at Markale for the Media)? The Hauge lacks solid proof. The case against Milosevic is tenuous at best according to British Military sources (and and International Law Lawer who I know). If the Comedy Tribunal is so interested in Justice, why has it limited defence lawyers to 200hrs PER defendant? Do you know that the current definition of ‘mass-grave’ is a grave with two bodies or more? The way the phrase is used in the media is ‘mass-grave’ with the connitation of ‘we know it’s full of people murderd by the Serbs’.

What right do YOU have to talk about concentration camps? By spouting such rubbish you demean everything that happened before. And don’t spout that crap about Srebrenica and the 8,000 missing. Do you just parrot the press or do you do any real research? Where are the F*****g bodies, 5 years after the supposed massacre? Why don’t you point me to a source on the net that I can research myself, or don’t we need transparency because it is clear that the Serbs are guilty and no proof is needed. The murdered were supposed to be down a mine-shaft, not there, they were supposed to have been dug-up and moved according to the State Department, not there. We even had half-bright waving satellite photos at us saying it was proof – is she stupid or what? There is no doubt that people were killed but if you know anything, Naser Oric and his Cronies were using the militarised ‘de-militarised’ Srebrenica to launch attacks on surrounding Serb villages (it’s fairly easy to get hold of his ‘home videos’). Why don’t you ask yourself basic questions like ‘why didn’t the Serbs attack before?’ and ‘why did this island exist in the first place?’. Your arguments don’t even scratch the surface. Did you bother to read Kofi Annan’s report on Srebrenica a few months back. Though not. It was crap, it said nothing new. It didn’t say who was killed, it doesn’t say how they were killed, it doesn’t say how many were killed, it doesn’t say why they were killed, it doesn’t say if they were armed and it doesn’t say if they surrendered. No figures of any kind except guesswork. These are basic questions but nobody asks them, why?

9: To say that NATO only intervened in Kosovo ‘because most of the people in Western Europe were already sick of hearing further news similar..’ is just crap. I’m sorry, but there is no other way to say it. Our governments don’t give a damn what their people think. All they want is that they can get on with their plans without public opposition. did you bother to do any research on Kosovo before Milosevic came to power? Did you bother to read through the Rambouillet dictat, especially ‘Apendix B’ which was designed to make the Serbs reject it? Did you bother to find out why members of KDOM were collection information for bombing when they should have been trying to stabilize the region?

10: What happened in Yugoslavia has nothing to do with German Nazis or Japan. Your take on history is based on sheer ignorance and trotting out semi-literate propaganda designed for the masses who couldn’t be bothered to do any decent research. Have you ever picked up a history book? Face it, you are totally out of your depth on this subject. I don’t disagree at all that Milosevic is seriously dodgy, an I support him in no way. I just hate propaganda and people who claim to be experts who can’t argue their way out of a paper bag.

11: The point about invasion was nothing to do with the Croatian Army, but NATO. Vojvodina is tank country. Fortunately the Serbs are world renoun experts in Fuel Air Explosives that can toss a 60ton tank 15ft into the air. The only reason that the Croats are tired is that their living conditions have not improved and all the promises made have been broken. It turns out that Tudjman literally stole billions out of the national coffers.

I don’t expect to agree with you, but I would expect better reasoning and research.
Patrick,
all I wanted to do was point out that Iraq is made up of several big groups and is held together by Saddam Hussein for good or evil. What do you think would happen if his military was completely smashed? Is it likely that they will all get together and form a democratically elected parliament, or that the Shia minority backed by the Iranians may try to take over. This is just one of the scenarios. The West wanted Saddam weak, but not so that the state collapsed. Remember it was the Arab coalition that was against Schwartzkopf from going all the way to Baghdad. US soldiers fighting in downtown Baghdad- how many dead?
Regs,

KZ

RE: the war for gas

“…Maybe the intervention in Kosovo was a prelude to a one world government having the right to intervene where it wishes and ignoring the rights of people to have their own govermental systems and sort out their own internal problems…”

Patrick, wasn’t it always so, that the guy who carried a bigger stick (even if he was the quiet one) could decide what should somebody else do or not?

RE: the war for gas

I’m no experet in US foreign policy, but it seems to me that rather than being guided by some master conspiracy, US policy is guided by the “balls-up” factor, namely, decisions are made on a knee jerk basis having regard to domestic US politics and perceived ythreats to instability. For example, KZ citse the failure of the US to destroy the Republiocan Guard during Desert Storm as a decision made so that Iraq was not destabalised. In fact, there is no evidence to support this. The US VII Corps mission was to DESTROY the Republican Guard and this they tried to do. They got as far as destroying the Medina Division, but were styopped by the ceasefire at 08.00 Ocal. The cease fire was declared because that idiot Swartzkorf had no idea where the front line of VII Corps were and had informed Powell that the mission of destroying the Republican Guard was complete. He (Swartzkopf) thought that VII Corps had alreday reached Safwan, which would have meant that they had destroyed the republican Guard between Basra and Safwan. In fact, the US 1st Infantry Division was not in Safwan, but had interdicted it with Apaches. Between VII Corps and XVIII Corps and Basra, the remainedr of the Medina and the whole of the Hammubari Republican Guard Division were untouched by US ground troops although they had been interdicted by Allied airpower and Apaches. As a result they managed to push their armour through the gap into Basra (through engagement area Thomas). The forces destroyed on the 3 March 1991 by McCaffrys 24th Division were not troops fleeing from Kuwait, but in fact a Brigade of the Hammubari which were heading to bagdad rather than into Basra. For the record, they shot at 24th Inf Division and 3rd ACR troops with Saggers and mortoirs before the 24th Division retailiated. The retaliation was disproportionate to the attack, but hey, the bastards deserved it. So the point isthat people have made up this myth that the US purposely did not destroy the Republican Guard, but in fact this happened through crass stupidity by Swarzkopf (who is a real hot headed ass kissing idiot according to most of the books I’ve read). He also later gave the Iraqis permission to fly helos which they usede to quash a Shite uprising in the South. Another mistake. In my experience history is more often crafted by mistake by design.

As for the Balkland, it is a place with no good guys. I disagreed with the NATO intervention because neither the UN nor NATO have a right to intervene in another nations domestic affairs. What next, the Mexicans invading Texas because they do not like the US capital punishment policy. Maybe Pat Buchanan is right. Maybe the intervention in Kosovo was a prelude to a one world government having the right to intervene where it wishes and ignoring the rights of people to have their own govermental systems and sort out their own internal problems.

RE: the war for gas

Oh, come on, Krasnaya,
now Milosevic and Serbs are targeted by the NATO “because people like simple answers and because that is what the State Department wanted…”

Phiiieeww! This is really far from being truth.

Take a good, really good look at all the issues of Western press from 1989/90/91/92 as well as all the political declarations given by Western politicians at the same time: the war in Yugoslavia was always declared for “internal struggle” and “civil war”. No talks about “aggression”. And that was one of the reasons nobody from the West tried to intervene sooner. If there was an intervention in Yugoslavia at the same time, somebody could also ask for similar in Northern Ireland, Belgium, Spain, or on Corsica…. You may now declare all the parts of the “US imperialist master plan” as long as you wish (I’ll only loose my respect for you), but these are facts. As late as 1995, Milosevic was held for one of the people who “brough peace to Balkans”.

No discussion, it’s true that Izetbegovic is an Islamic extremist, with a fat dossier. That a good part of Croats in the WWII colaborated with Nazis and massacred thousands of Jews, Serbs and other, but you shouldn’t forget, that some 60% of communist Partisans were also Croatians, and that this changed only after general amnesty for Chetniks (Serb nationalists, which fought on the Nazi side too) was declared in 1944. No question of Kosovo being a part of Serbia, no question of the NATO intervening there without any agreement with the UN (but if the UN would agree to such an intervention, then it would have to agree to at least 15 further similar operations, starting with one in Chechnya, and finishing in Angola).

There is also no point in discussing Tudjman: it’s clear that he was a shouvinistic dictator, who managed to intrigue a good part of Croats (but never the majority) with his “ideas”. There is also no question about part of nationalistic Croats being also at least as guilty as Serbs for the war in Croatia.

But,
declaring that the USA and Germans wanted to destroy Yugoslavia is something that has nothing to do with reality: the only interesst both of these two powers have is for foreign countries to remain in one piece, otherwise, their companies are loosing too much money opening their branches in too many small markets.

And,
declaring Serbs for victims of the struggle in Yugoslavia is neglecting all their deeds in Croatia, in Bosnia and in Kosovo. You can explain here about Croats barbecuing Moslems in Bosnia, but the idea came from the Serbs. Do you really need now the long list of all the attrocities done by Serbs, begining with the attack on Erdut and Dalj, (Croat places on the Croat-Serb border) exactly nine years ago, over Krajina, Western Bosnia, Eastern Bosnia right to Kosovo?

Strange, I’ve never heard about similar things happened in Serbia (except that many Croats and Hungarians are forced to leave Vojvodina, the northernmost part of Serbia). That’s simply so because no Croats or Moslems attacked Serbia.

Is it wonder that 90% of War criminals accused for attrocities done during the war in Yugoslavia are Serbs (including Serb leaders like Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic), or are you going to tell us that the international court in Den Haag is biased too? What about rapings, massacres, planed – organized and executed – massive ethnic cleansings of hundred thousands, concentration camps, mass executions (don’t forget 8.000 Moslems in Srebrenica alone) done by Serbs? Nothing of it happened, huh?

I’m not negating attrocities made by others too, but they are really neglecting (I apologize to all the victims for my expression) compared to what Serbs have started and done. And this is the only reason NATO intervened in Kosovo case too, because most of the people in Western Europe were already sick of hearing further news similar to those about what Serbs made in from Croatia and Bosnia.

Neglecting deeds of Serbs all over so many places is the same as saying that German Nazis or Japanese troops never did what they did during the WWII.

The whole war in Yugoslavia, 90% of the attrocities, massacres, the ethnic cleansing and unbelivable suffering happened only for one reason: because Milosevic used the awaken Serb nationalism in order to rise and remain in power! This resulted in parts of other nations and religions there to became shouvinistic and some other creatures to use the chance and rise to power too.

To be honest, I don’t even think Milosevic is really a Serb nationalist, only a pure oportunist, like S. H. in Iraq. That’s a reall crime: to order killings of thousands only in order to remain in power!

PS And don’t worry about US help for Croatian armed forces: Croats are now more occupied with saving what they can. On average, only some 5 out of 20 available MiG-21s are flyiable at all, and the picture is not better with any other part of Croat heavy weapons. Nobody in Croatia even dreams about any “invasion” of Serbia; the majority of the people there were tired of the war on 28 June 1991 (one day after it “officially” started in Slovenia).

But if he remains in power, your “poor” Milosevic will certainly manage it to make Serbia the size of Belgrade city!

RE: the war for gas

Merlin,
America chooses it’s wars carefully – i.e. when it considers something to be in its National Interest. The Gulf Alliance let Saddam off the hook during the Gulf war because they were afraid that if they totally destroyed the Iraqi military, the country would rip itself to pieces (very likely) and Iran would step in, radically changing the balance of power in the region. This is why the Republican Guard was allowed to leave Kuwait unscathed two days before the allied ground invasion and failed to support the Basra ‘uprising’ which it instigated. We had to make do with General McCaffferys ‘Turkey shoot’ on the Basra road where two miles of dangers looters were returning to Iraq from Kuwait with their spoils.

The US also bares responsibility for the war in the Gulf too. The Brief history is that the West backed Iraq against Iran during that war. Kuwait gave several billion dollars worth of aid to Iraq to buy weapons. When the Iraq-Iran war finished the Kuwaiti’s demanded their money back. Iraq wouldn’t pay up and Kuwait took to ‘slant drilling’ in the Rumalia oil-field that straddles the border between Iraq and Kuwait and led to Iraqi claims that it was stealing their oil. The US ambassador to Iraq (Ms. Kirkpatrick I think) was invited to chat to one of Saddam’s proxies and asked a simple question of would Iraq be able to ‘handle’ Kuwait without US intervention. The reply was affirmative. All the rest is history.

Regarding Kosovo and the Former Yugoslavia, the Americans and the Germans wanted to break it up from the beginning for economic and political reasons and prefered to do this by stealth, i.e. declaring an arms embargo and then supplying weapons secretly (Iranian 747s full of weapons landing at Zagreb airport etc + US C-130 airdrops). The British Government claimed to be independent but allowed RACAL electronics to supply communications equipment to the Slovienian a few weeks before they declared independence and then procceded to undermine the embargo by supplying weapons (Sunday Times 13/8 article by ex SAS on how Brit/US backed Afghanistanis – next episode on Brit. rearming of Croats and Bosnian Moslems that went wrong).

It is a common myth and a pointless comment that if the ‘West had intervened earlier’ in Yugoslavia things would have turned out been better. The World has focused on Milosevic and the Serbs because people like simple answers and because that is what the State Department wanted -i.e. not for it to be seen as a civil war but a war of aggression. Alija Izetbegovic the President of Bosnia is a Moslem fundamentalist who spent much time in prison under former President Tito and has strong links to the WWII pro-Nazi Moslem movement in Bosnia. In his Islamic Declaration of 1972, he states clearly that he sees Yugoslavia as a Moslem state with no space for any other religion. The ‘Islamic Declaration’ was re-published in 1991. The late President Tudjman was a born again fascist. In his book ‘Wastelands..The Historical Truth’ he claims that the number of 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis is over-inflated and also denies that the Croatian Fascists in WWII murdered over 750,000 Serbs (slong with Jews, gypsies etc.). He publicly stated that he was ‘proud that my wife is neither Serb nor Jew’ – (this did not stop him from being invited to the opening of the new Holocaust museum in Washingon a few years later). My point being that Milosevic was one of several unsavoury characters and was deliberately targeted along with the Serb people as being ‘evil’. Just recall that it was British Army soldiers who ‘discovered’ that the Croats were barbecuing Moslems in Bosnia – not the Politicians (who knew) nor the ‘free and independent’ Media – it would make the Croats/Moslem GOOD, Serbs BAD story to complicated.

Allied action has not contained Milosevic into his back ‘garden’ but destabilized the region even further. NATO troops are being seen as ‘occupiers’ by those they ‘liberated’, the KLA is the second biggest controller of Heroin in to Europe after Turkey. It regularly murders members of the Albanian political opposition, runs large scale human trafficking, prostution and controls the construction an petrol markets. There is no ‘freedom’ and democracy’ there. The Jews have left Kosovo, every minority is harassed into leaving. They’ve dinamite over 100 Serb churches dating back over 500 years and are building new mosques with Saudi money. Nothing and nobody can stop a Greater-Albania from existing, even if they call it something else. Croatia has just been welcomed open arms in to NATO and has just started to recieve $30 million in military ‘aid’. This will provide useful for threatening Milosevic with an invasion of Yugoslavia – expect to see some ‘large-scale exercises’ taking part on Croatian territory with lots of tanks etc. in the near future.

What the US government is interested in are securing future supply of energy resources to keep their economy going, maintaing world influence, containing those countries that are deemed to be a threat and limiting the resurgence of influence of other countries (Russia, India and China), backing up Europe defensively as Europe is the USA’s largest trade partner and maintaing NATO as the primary structure of Western ‘defence’ as NATO is the US’s main source of influence within Europe. I’ve probably missed a view, but if you are into strategic info. and who is doing what to whom for what reason, www.stratfor.com is not half bad.

Sorry for the long post, but it’s not just a question of information, but the right information.

Regs,

KZ

P.S. I ask you not to take my words as gospel, as everyone has their own opinions, but to go and make up your own mind and always ask ‘Why?’ about everything. Just don’t parrot the same old crap just because everyone else does, investigate.