Thin but robust provenance

Well there is a case of a fuselage that at some point lost it’s tailsection in transit.

Cheers

Cees

If it was stolen isn’t the owner of the fuselage also still the legal owner of the tail section? Who would have a dispute then?

Depends on the country. Some countries have a law that an item becomes legally yours if you have it x number of years, even if it’s stolen in the first place.

Suppose:
…
the tailsection is stolen.
…
the tailsection that had been stolen earlier turns up frpm nowhere. Can this be the subject of a dispute between the owners of the tail and the fuselage

If it was stolen isn’t the owner of the fuselage also still the legal owner of the tail section? Who would have a dispute then?

Yes I look forward to the list as well.Should be interesting reading,thanks Mark 12 over to you.

I will compile a list of Spitfires, Hurricanes, Hawker Bi-Planes etc

So when do we get to see this list? 🙂

Suppose:

A Spitfire airframe is found in India or Thailand with full provenance and during transport the tailsection is stolen.

After arriving in the UK the fuselage is sold and used in a documented rebuild and after completion takes to the sky etc etc. Sometime later the tailsection that had been stolen earlier turns up frpm nowhere. Can this be the subject of a dispute between the owners of the tail and the fuselage about the identity?

Cheers

Cees

It would be nice to find aeroplanes in barns…..

Bruce

Nah….will never happen….everyone knows that aeroplanes are only hidden in filled in tunnels and buried under airfields !!! :D:D

I question the provenance of this Thread. I believe that parts of it are based on items recovered from Old Threads which may be original but on the other hand may be the result of using a modern word processor.

I’ve got a “strange feeling of deja-vu”; does that count, especially as I’ve documented it?

It is true that there are still barn finds (although Bruce is quite right in saying that the Bugatti along with other significant cars are out of sight (so they haven’t been seen for a long time) but their owners and usually their location are well known to many people within the vintage / classic car world.
It is extremely rare now to find significant race cars in barns as most historic race cars have well documented histories which means that for the most part their owners and movements are well known or can be researched relatively easily particularly since the advent of the internet.
This ease of research hasn’t always been popular with some owners or some dealers especially in cases where it is now possible to shed some light on the history of cars and other vehicles with a dodgy provenance.
Around 15 years ago I met Colin Seeley (the legendary motorcycle frame builder) through a friend. He told us he had attended a major motorcycle auction a while before and one of the bikes on offer was described as a Seeley Matchless. As the auctioneer described the bike prior to getting the bidding started Colin stood up and said “before you go any furhter I would like to say that I have inspected this bike and it is not a Seeley Matchless. In fact I can’t find a single Seeley part on the bike. Oh and if you are wondering how I can be so certain my name is Colin Seeley.” He then sat down and I believe the bike was withdrawn from sale.
He told us he took this action because he was fed up with other people making money from his name using false provenances. I admired him for his honesty and having the balls to stand up and say his piece. If only everyone in the classic vehicle world was that honest.

As I understand it, the existence of the Bugatti was fairly well known; it just hadnt been seen for a while.

It would be nice to find aeroplanes in barns…..

Bruce

In theory the car world adopts similar practices although there are some cars around with rather dicey provenances and there are currently debates about some cars which acheive lap speeds far over those possible in their heyday thanks to modern bits inside old engines ( a practice which shouldn’t, in my view, be allowed where the sole aim of the new bits is to increase power output to the huge detriment of originality) but having said that there is rather less chance of someone recovering the remains of a long lost Ferrari or Jaguar D type from the Russian tundra or the bottom of a lake so maybe the car owners have an easier time monitoring the provenance of their pride and joy..

There are still some remarkable ‘Barn finds’ happening in the classic car world:

Lagonda

Bugatti

hidden collection

The Bugatti in particular is probably the equivalent of finding an unknown Supermarine Schneider racer given the numbers built?

I question the provenance of this Thread. I believe that parts of it are based on items recovered from Old Threads which may be original but on the other hand may be the result of using a modern word processor.

Nonsense – I’ll have you know that all my thoughts are quite original…..!

I have posted my views before and agree pretty much with Bruce.
I think it is reasonable that the provenance and the extent to which an aircraft is new build is documented for future purchasers so that everyone knows what they are buying but we have to accept that nothing can be composed entirely of the original parts which left the factory decades ago.

If you want to fly it in the UK the restoration has to be fully documented in order to get it certified.

I question the provenance of this Thread. I believe that parts of it are based on items recovered from Old Threads which may be original but on the other hand may be the result of using a modern word processor.

I have posted my views before and agree pretty much with Bruce.
I think it is reasonable that the provenance and the extent to which an aircraft is new build is documented for future purchasers so that everyone knows what they are buying but we have to accept that nothing can be composed entirely of the original parts which left the factory decades ago.
In theory the car world adopts similar practices although there are some cars around with rather dicey provenances and there are currently debates about some cars which acheive lap speeds far over those possible in their heyday thanks to modern bits inside old engines ( a practice which shouldn’t, in my view, be allowed where the sole aim of the new bits is to increase power output to the huge detriment of originality) but having said that there is rather less chance of someone recovering the remains of a long lost Ferrari or Jaguar D type from the Russian tundra or the bottom of a lake so maybe the car owners have an easier time monitoring the provenance of their pride and joy..

and Mustangs…..

Seriously though, the car world document the provenance of the C and D type Jags, the Ferraris and the other interesting racing cars to quite a significant degree. I have a number of mainstream magazines and books that give chapter and verse of the whole production run of C and D type Jaguars, so there is much less opportunity for these things to appear from nowhere.

It would not be difficult to carry out the same exercise with aircraft if that were considered useful to the future, but it could clearly have a detrimental effect on value, so it wont happen.

Intrinsically, it doesnt matter one jot, as long as there is no intention to pass the aircraft off as something it isnt. Its value is in being a flying aircraft. If I were a museum however, I would be looking very carefully at which aircraft to add to my collection perhaps 50 yrs down the line when the supply of Avgas has gone forever….!

Bruce

After the thin but robust provenance discussion has died down, when will the next discussion start regarding the 100% original aircraft?:cool:

During the eighties a restoration was carried out using different wings, tailsection etc. Normal procedure during service, but totally unacceptable nowadays;)

These serial soups are waiting to be judged.:diablo:
Cheers

Cees

As you are obviously bored, could you also do the Tiger Moths!

Provenance

The only way to retain the Provenance of your aircraft, and slow the proliferation of newly appearing re-builds, is not to dispose of the restoration cast-off’s – period!

This ultimately, is the only way you will see the numbers of new rebuilds appearing from no-where, drying up in the future.

Without the pile of unuseable parts/wreckage being traded from one company to the next – “post restoration”, there won’t be anything to hang a project serial around, and commence another “re-build”. This would affect the long term future of these companies, so it obviously won’t happen.

I for one, am more than happy to show my 7 year old son a Spitfire flying overhead more that 70 years since the type’s first flight, and whether they are new or old, they are all still Spitfires!

Are people offended or in reality interested in the provenance of an item .
Pretty much in the same way that a tendered £5 note has far more merit than a photocopied example at a Morrisons check out.

Undoubtedly people will continue to rebuild Spitfires/Seafires from ever decreasing piles – why should peole have any problems with people knowing the provenance of an item if in the long term it safeguards it’s value.
If for instance you purchase a BoB genuine Spitfire and subsequently find that none of it is genuine it’s perfectly reasonable to believe that it you could challenge the description in the courts – aircraft are in no way different to a valuable car or antique.