[updated:LAST EDITED ON 22-06-02 AT 05:56 PM (GMT)]Top Lawyer Urges Death For Families Of Bombers
Lewin: ‘A Policy Born of Necessity’
By AMI EDEN
FORWARD STAFF
A prominent Washington attorney and Jewish communal leader is calling for the execution of family members of suicide bombers.
Nathan Lewin, an oft-mentioned candidate for a federal judgeship and legal advisor to several Orthodox organizations, told the Forward that such a policy would provide a much-needed deterrent against suicide attacks. Under the proposal, which Lewin unveiled in the current issue of the opinion journal Sh’ma, family members would be spared if they immediately condemned the bombing and refused financial compensation for the loss of their relative. (Lewin’s article appears on the web at http://www.shma.com/may02/nathan.htm.)
While a 20-month spate of suicide bombings has been met in the Jewish community with calls for increasingly Draconian preventive measures, Lewin appears to be the first Jewish communal leader to approve publicly of the concept of executing innocent civilians in the hopes of curbing terrorism.
“If executing some suicide-bomber families saves the lives of even an equal number of potential civilian victims, the exchange is, I believe, ethically permissible,” wrote Lewin, who served as president of the International Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists and is a vice president of the Orthodox Union. “It is a policy born of necessity — the need to find a true deterrent when capital punishment is demonstrably ineffective.”
Lewin argued that the biblical injunction to destroy the ancient tribe of Amalek serves as a precedent in Judaism for taking measures that are “ordinarily unacceptable” in the face of a mortal threat. His proposal, however, was rejected by an Israeli diplomat in New York, and discounted, in terms ranging from mild to condemnatory, by a range of commentators, terrorism experts and Jewish communal leaders from across the American political spectrum.
“The State of Israel is determined to respond to every Palestinian provocation,” said Ido Aharoni, consul for media and public affairs at Israel’s New York consulate. “Israel’s military approach is to pursue the perpetrators and those who seek to carry out acts of terrorism against innocent Israelis. Within that framework, Israel is trying to minimize, if possible to eliminate, the number of innocent lives lost.”
Several leading Jewish figures, including Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz, argued that the plan represented a legitimate if flawed attempt to strike a balance between preventing terrorism and preserving democratic norms. But the proposal was strongly condemned by the head of the Reform movement, Rabbi Eric Yoffie, and the executive vice chairwoman of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, Hannah Rosenthal.
“The opinion is utterly reprehensible and totally contrary to the most fundamental principles of the Jewish religious tradition and everything the State of Israel has been about since its founding,” said Yoffie, president of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations. “I’ve said it, and everyone realizes, that in a war all of our standards on civil liberties may not apply. But to say that you need to make common-sense compromises is a long way from saying we are going to kill innocent people to bring about deterrence.”
Yoffie rejected Lewin’s reference to Amalek as a possible justification for killing innocents. He argued that for nearly 2,000 years talmudic sages and other rabbinic commentators have argued that the lessons of Amalek could not be applied to contemporary times. In an article that appeared in the Sh’ma journal alongside Lewin’s essay, Brandeis University Jewish studies professor Arthur Green wrote, “I only wonder how long it will take [Lewin], by the force of this proof-text, to go all the way and suggest that the Palestinian nation as a whole has earned the fate of Amalek.”
Green, former president of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, wrote that his first desire upon reading Lewin’s essay was to “tear my garments, as a sign of mourning on hearing the desecration of God’s name.”
The criticisms of Lewin were taken one step further by Jeremy Burton, a member of Sh’ma’s advisory board and executive director of AMOS: The National Jewish Partnership for Social Justice. Burton argued, in his own name, that the attorney should now be blackballed from organized Jewish life, just as the late Rabbi Meir Kahane was ostracized for calling for the mass deportation of Arabs from Israel.
Rosenthal, whose organization serves the national network of local Jewish community relations councils and a range of national organizations, said that Jewish groups need to condemn any talk in their community of justifying the killing of civilians. “I can’t begin to tell you how many meetings I’ve been in with colleagues across the country where the words of spokespersons for various Muslim and Arab causes are being parsed,” Rosenthal said. “We look at words and decide which side of the line you are on.”
Dershowitz and Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, rejected the notion that Lewin should be elbowed out of communal life. They argued that his proposal represented a legitimate attempt to forge a policy for stopping terrorism. Foxman declined to take a stand on the actual proposal, citing his policy of deferring to Jerusalem on Israeli security issues.
Though they declined to endorse the controversial proposal, top officials at the O.U. and Agudath Israel of America, for whom Lewin has done legal work, expressed sympathy for Lewin’s efforts to curb what they described as an unprecedented wave of suicide attacks in Israel. “[Lewin] is not a Kahanist; he is not a nut,” said Richard Stone, chair of the O.U.’s Institute of Public Affairs. Stone noted that Lewin, a member of the institute’s executive committee, was not advocating the mass deportation of Arabs, rather a limited method of fighting terrorists.
Rabbi William Altshul, headmaster of the Melvin J. Berman Hebrew Academy, a Modern Orthodox Jewish day school in Washington, D.C., told the Forward that he did not regret the decision to honor Lewin this week at the school’s annual dinner. “I haven’t read the article,” Altshul said. “But Nat has always been known for his outspoken opinions, and I respect him for it.”
Even as several observers rejected the notion of blackballing Lewin, they offered substantive critiques of his argument. Dershowitz, author of “Why Terrorism Works” (Yale University Press, 2002), and terrorism researcher Steven Emerson, who both favor the limited use of torture to extract information about an impending terrorist attack, said that they balked at the execution of innocent civilians. Still, Emerson added, “all bets are off” if terrorists were to target thousands of people with non-conventional weapons.
Dershowitz argued that the same level of deterrence could be achieved by leveling the villages of suicide bombers after the residents had been given a chance to evacuate (an idea Lewin disparagingly likened to “using aspirin to treat brain cancer”).
Rabbi Steven Pruzansky of Orthodox Congregation Bnai Yeshurun in Teaneck, N.J., a trained lawyer known for hawkish views on Israeli security issues, argued that a policy of mass deportations, rather than executions, could serve as an effective, but less deadly, deterrent against future attacks.
Several observers defended Lewin by noting that the United States killed tens of thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But Yoffie warned against such parallels.
“If we are going to start looking for historical justifications for us to kill innocent people, then we are destroying the moral basis of our argument, which is ultimately our most effective weapon,” the Reform leader said. “Don’t go down that road because it is wrong, self-defeating and dangerous for Israel.”
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.06.07/news1.html
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I hope we all agree that this is not a solution …
By: skythe - 3rd July 2002 at 21:53
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
“Race and ethnicity are actually the same thing. “
I disagree. The very concept of race is defined by genetics alone. As I’ve said, ethnicity is beyond genetics; it is also about will and choice and, indeed, culture. This is where we differ. You see ethnicity as a purely scientific concept, while I believe it is a much more abstract idea that does encompass more than mere skin color.
“You know that much yourself as you later say “who sought to formulate ethnicity or race through physical stereotypes”.”
I was talking about the Nazis. They, we can agree, were wrong on a whole load of issues.
“If you think that Judaism is not a race then you are agreeing with what I have been saying… it is not a race… it may be a culture but it is not a race.”
OK, so now there’s something we both seem to agree upon. Judaism is not merely a religion but something more. You call it culture, but I think it extends beyond that. Ethiopian Jews were completely different from American or Israeli Jews, and their rituals are a world apart from the rest of world Jewry. Yet Israel did what it did for them out of belief that it is not merely responsible for those acting according to certain articles of faith or culture.
At the end of the day, Garry, it does not really matter if anyone does not think that Jews are a nation. It matters what the Jews think, and if the majority of them seem to think so, then it is. That’s the way Nationalism works, there’s no authority that decides whether a certain group of people has met the criteria. An excellent example is the Palestinians. The very term “Palestinian People” was born a century ago, and until that time there was no Palestinians identity, Palestine was merely the name of a Province in the Ottoman Empire whose inhabitants were Arabs. Palestinian Nationalism emerged with the advent of Zionism, when local Arabs rose to resist a threat that was local to them and irrelevant to neighboring regions. The Palestinian People exist because they will it so, not by genetic decree. And so do the Jewish People.
“Culture is all about the way we speak, how we communicate, the way we do things and why we do it.”
Exactly, since world Jewry does not speak one single language, and does not do things the same way or for the same reason, Judaism in nor merely a religion and not merely a culture.
“What part of the history of Judaism makes it any different from any other religion?”
Excellent question – quite a lot actually. Historically, when you look at its origins, Judaism was not a religion in the current sense of the word. It was rather a set of beliefs that belonged to a very specific group of people, the Hebrews, a people who had political institutions as well. Judaism was no less national identity than a religion. Since the Hebrew state was wiped out by the Roman Empire, Judaism’s ethnic and national aspects were diminished relative to the religious perspective. Diminished, but not cancelled, and one facet of Zionism is the reemergence of those long-hidden dimensions. Now, I have no way of knowing whether I am a pure descendant of the Hebrews (Although genetic studies have shown similarities between different Jewish communities around the world and even the Palestinians), but I am a Jew, and as such they are my ancestors. I certainly don’t know of any other.
Furthermore, unlike Christianity or Islam, Judaism never aspired (and still doesn’t) to be universal – there’s no such thing as a Jewish missionary, nor does the religion seek converts. That is why it also maintains a national aspect, exactly because it is not merely a religion but also a national identity that bonds a certain group of people together.
“Are the Rotary Club and Masonic Lodge seperate ethnic groups too?
Is there no Christian nation?
The Amish work together are they a nation too?”
It’s really up to them.
“Israel exists not by Virtue or by right but by force and for no other reason than that.”
That’s quite right, a very realistic approach. But you are aware that numerous countries on Earth were born this way? The name New Zealand doesn’t really sound Maori … My previous comment, that the question of whether we “deserve” a state or not is both arrogant and irrelevant, still stands.
“If a thief robs a house …”
Oh yes, Israelis are thieves who stole the land from the poor Palestinians. But if you’re going to ignore history and actual events, why stop there? You can make sound whole lot sexier by describing Israelis as some kind of aliens that landed out of space one day and simply took over the place in one single crushing offensive. Never mind the facts when you can tell a nice simplistic story.
“Why do I get the feeling you are dying to say he becomes one of Gods chosen people?”
I don’t know, why do you? The thought never crossed my mind. Why do I suddenly get the feeling you were dying for me to say that?
“If it is abstract and without formula how is it identified?”
“How do you know it is even there in the first place?”
By choice, by decision, by will. It’s a very democratic process, wouldn’t you say?
“How do you know no other religions have it?”
I don’t. I never claimed to be speaking on behalf of anyone but myself. Others may have it, I really don’t know. It’s up to them.
“That is unfair. You asked me what I’d do if a schoolbus with my child on it was fire bombed. You said nothing about it being in Germany under Hitlers rule.”
The remark stands nonetheless. It still applies in other times and in other places, and is just as relevant for one person as it is for entire populations. It is very easy to talk of steadfastness, but neither you nor I have ever seriously had the lives of our family members directly threatened. There are chances no one will be willing to take.
“Ahh, so you get a bad history in Europe and you think the world hates you?
Do I hate Jews?
Does the US hate Jews?
Does New Zealand or Australia hate Jews?”
You misunderstand me. As I said before, I do not think the world is Anti-Semitic. By “unable to shake” I was talking about a phenomenon that still persists through time and around the world. I never said that the entire world is afflicted, that every single person and nation is effected, but that it exists practically everywhere.
“Running away and hiding in your own country is your solution?”
Yes! Got a better one? (Besides the one in the following paragraph, you’ll see I didn’t like it much)
“Perhaps staying where they were and showing those around them that they are not as they are portrayed by those who don’t like them or those who don’t understand them was considered a better option.”
That’s a noble idea Garry, but it has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Indians Americans were decimated! European Jewry tried integrating into society for centuries. What good did it do them? So today they’re OK, but at what cost? I wouldn’t be here today if my grandfather had decided to stay put and “show those around them that they are not as they are portrayed”. No, he “run away” and was all that survived of his family.
“Yes perhaps the fact that they refused an offer of half the land they thought was theirs and the fact they have been fighting for 50 years to get it back means they don’t deserve to have their own country too”
They do deserve a country of their own, but it would get here a lot faster if they did not seek it through the destruction of Israel. They could have had a state in 1947. They could have had one in the territories captured by Jordan and Egypt in 1948 and held until 1967. They could have had one in 2000. And yet, they don’t. Not because of some fundamental refusal, but because they seem unable to grasp the idea that as long as their road to independence goes through the glorification of killing and violence, it will lead them nowhere.
“Are you suggesting that the rest of the world should have gone into Europe and rounded up a million or two to drag off to the rest of the world? The fact is they were not turned away because they were jewish. This suggests that it wasn’t the case that the whole world hated jews”
My point is that while taking care of Jewish orphans was a very noble act, it nonetheless pales in comparison with the needs of thousands and thousands of European Jews in desperate need. Many were not welcome is their home countries (some Polish Jews returning to reclaim their property were murdered); others had no desire to return. I don’t think people were turned away because they were Jews, I am fully aware that no nation was faring all that well at the time. But the problem did exist, and there was a dire need for a solution. It is Israel that ultimately became the answer for many of these people.
“Their home nation would be obligated to.”
In concept yes, but you’re once again ignoring reality. What if they don’t want them? What if it were the country that expelled them in the first place? Who would take thousands of Jews expelled from, let’s say, Tunisia?
“Many of the White farmers in Zimbabwe and South Africa are choosing to come here and to Australia. We take them in with no questions about their religion”
Don’t tell me New Zealand or Australia take anyone who simply wishes to immigrate. You need only watch the news to know that’s not exactly true. Israel has defined itself as a refuge for any Jew who wishes to immigrate for any possible reason, for the exact reason that is can never tell whether the will come a time when Jews are not always welcome in their home nations. That does not mean that non-Jews cannot immigrate, there’s also a very large community of foreign workers in Israel, mostly Africans. But Israel, as a Jewish homeland, will take in those Jews in need, no questions asked.
“This wonderful state that does not oppress Jews and does not oppress anyone else sounds very interesting… and you accuse me of being idealistic?”
I never said we were perfect, on the contrary, I admitted we are not on more than one occasion.
“To answer your questions with your own arguments Yes the Japanese state must oppress Jews because by definition all states except a jewish one oppresses jews … that is of course why you needed your Jewish state in the first place isn’t it?”
But those are not my arguments. I did not say that foreign states necessarily oppress Jews, I said they might and that Israel exists so that Jews don’t have to take that chance, that they can always find refuge here. Just as Japan doesn’t necessarily oppress minorities, the existence of Israel does not mean non-Jews are necessarily oppressed.
“And if there is discrimination inside Israel today and the discrimination is against a minority how can the state solve the problem when the state is the problem?”
But you’re the one saying the state is the problem! I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but discrimination exists almost everywhere. Does that mean that every afflicted state should be dismantled?
“It is not common sense that a Jew and a Palestinian shouldn’t marry. Love does not abide by politics.”
They don’t marry not because they are forbidden but because the reality of the matter, the real tragedy I was trying to explain, is that the two populations have grown apart. Jews frequent Arab towns less than they did before, less Arabs settle in predominantly Jewish cities, because suspicion and fear are wreaking havoc inside Israel, not only with the Palestinians. Of course mixed marriages still take place, but they’re less common than they used to.
“yet you admit Israel blew up their airport because they were bringing in weapons.”
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there’s a war going on. Plenty of nations had their airports and airfields destroyed in war, you only to look at it in the context of the war, not in some great evil master plan to deny them their independence. When Israel destroyed airfields in Egypt in 1967, it wasn’t some move to deny them the benefits of aviation, nor a first step in the installment of a new regime!
“We are walling up our neighbours”
Walling them up, indeed. All that’s going on is the building of a fence to prevent those neighbors from sending human bombs into our cities, on board our buses, into our restaurants. How dare we protect ourselves the same way other nations do? Or should the fence between Israel and Lebanon be pulled down too, so that the four Israelis kidnapped by the Hizbullah should be joined by a few more of their friends?
“He can have as many weapons as we let him”
As many weapons and of as many types as specified in the agreements they had signed, nothing more, nothing less. In fact, the irony is that many of the weapons now turned against Israel are the same weapons Israel has provided the Palestinian Authority with!
“They’ve only suffered for 50 years”
Oh yes, and that’s entirely our fault. They’ve tried to destroy us on a number of occasions, refused any compromise on many others, de-legitimize our very existence to this day, but amnesia seems like the order of the day so we’ll forget about all those …
“950 to go before they can whine like we do”
Not really, but it also up to them.
“the whole world hates us.”
I never said that. Please stop putting words in my mouth, it is getting rather boring
“How often does Austria get their airports destroyed for importing arms?”
“Importing”, that’s nice Garry. Nations who smuggle illegal weapons (illegal by the same accords they have signed) and then turn them against another nation, are very likely to get their airports blown away.
“I was actually thinking of ghettos within states where there is no work, lots of crime, and lots of people with lots of time and nothing to do and no legal form of income.”
As I said, that’s primarily up to them. Prosperity does not depend on landmass, but rather on personal freedoms, effective legislation, a supportive government, free enterprise and loads of other factors. Palestinians are among the best educated in the Arab World, and they’ve also got ahead start with the entire world’s support behind them. Israel can and should do a lot to forward that vision, but its strength does not mean it will necessarily overshadow an independent Palestine.
“Except there is no way out because this ghetto is also a state within a state”
Besides Israel, Palestine will also border Egypt and Jordan. It is not landlocked by Israel alone. Besides, I brought up Austria and Switzerland because they too are landlocked, and yet they aren’t doing too badly …
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: Rosco - 1st July 2002 at 16:43
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
[i] Running away and hiding in your own country is your solution? [/i]
Spoken like one who does not belong to a despised minority and therefore does not have to walk a gauntlet of disapproval throughout each day of his life. In such a case you don’t any points for being “brave” and continuing to subject yourself to this, the idea of a separate state of your own kind begins to look very appealing after you come to grips with this fact.
By: Arabella-Cox - 1st July 2002 at 10:44
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
“I would like, however, to point out that I did not say Jews were a race (I don’t even know what a ‘race’ is) but rather an ethnic group. There’s a big difference between the two, at least from my point of view. As I’ve already mentioned, I don’t think ethnicity is physical alone. “
Race and ethnicity are actually the same thing.
You know that much yourself as you later say “who sought to formulate ethnicity or race through physical stereotypes”.
If you think that Judiasm is not a race then you are agreeing with what I have been saying… it is not a race… it may be a culture but it is not a race.
Race is now politically incorrect.
The meaning of race has changed and ethnicity is used to mean what was previously meant by race.
Instead of talking about different races we now talk about ethnic groups.
There is only one race of Humans…ie the Human Race… this is a political change.
The things that make us different are ethnicity and culture. Culture can change… ethnicity cannot.
Culture is all about the way we speak, how we communicate, the way we do things and why we do it.
Physically it means traditions like circumcision or piercings of lips, noses, eyebrows, bellybuttons, etc etc.
Ethnicity is features passed on from ancestors.
It is a genetic thing and has nothing to do with the beliefs of the individual, nor of any rituals they take part in nor the holidays they choose to honour.
“but to label Judaism as merely a religion lacks historical perspective.”
What part of the history of Judaism makes it any different from any other religion?
“He is now not only all he was before but also a part of the Jewish nation.”
But if he joined the Rotary club or the Masons couldn’t you say the same thing… ie everything he was before but now he’s a Mason?
Are the Rotary Club and Masonic Lodge seperate ethnic groups too?
Is there no Christian nation?
The Amish work together are they a nation too?
The Jehovahs Witness’s also tend to band together and could be a nation but then they don’t believe in countries do they?
“Excuse me; you wonder if we “deserve” it? Israel exists not by virtue but by right, we do not have to justify our existence. We “deserve” it, as much as any other state “deserves” to exist. Have you ever wondered if Germany “deserves” to exist or if Brazil “deserves” so? That’s quite an arrogant statement, Garry, wouldn’t you say? In fact, I would go as far as to say that such sentiment is exactly why we deserve it!”
First of all:
“Excuse me; you wonder if we “deserve” it? Israel exists not by virtue but by right, we do not have to justify our existence. “
Israel exists not by Virtue or by right but by force and for no other reason than that.
I think you misunderstood me. If a thief robs a house and does not get caught the thief keeps what he stole. Does the thief have a right to keep what he has stolen… of course, as long as he does not get caught, he probably will keep it or sell it but does he really deserve to gain from his misdeed? Would you really feel sympathy for the thief if he lost what he had stolen and even something that he owned as well?
“What I’m saying is that the man has just gained another facet to an already multi-faceted personality (as anyone is), which is beyond his mere religious beliefs. He is now not only all he was before but also a part of the Jewish nation. “
You mean he becomes “Super Jew”…. }>
What is this extra facet and why doesn’t he receive it if he becomes a Mormon, or a Christian?
Why do I get the feeling you are dying to say he becomes one of Gods chosen people?
“As I said, this is an abstract notion, not one for which a formula exists.”
If it is abstract and without formula how is it identified?
How do you know no other religions have it?
How do you know it is even there in the first place?
###########
“I certainly wouldn’t run away from the problem.”
That’s a simplistic, if not chauvinistic, sentiment, not one by which millions of people can lead their lives. Do you think that all Jews should have opted to stay put in Europe just to avoid losing face? You do what you have to do, and if that calls for independence, then so be it.
############
That is unfair. You asked me what I’d do if a schoolbus with my child on it was fire bombed. You said nothing about it being in Germany under Hitlers rule.
“Anti-Semitism is a hatred the world is simply unable to shake”
Ahh, so you get a bad history in Europe and you think the world hates you?
Do I hate Jews?
Does the US hate Jews?
Does New Zealand or Australia hate Jews?
I admit I don’t like it much when people wear things like crusifixes and constantly want to talk about god… for me Religion is personal and if you need to pedal it then you might as well be selling soap or encyclopeadias. Anyone who changes religion simply from a 10 minute chat about god in my view is a bit simple. Maybe I am just cynical, but I have never judged people for their religion. I have judged… and executed a few for trying to force it on me… (execution in this case means been rude to… ie Told them to F’ off… not actually kill them).
“Unlike you, I can’t dismiss it as mere stupidity, but rather as such an ancient, lasting and sometimes lethal phenomenon as to bring about the definition of Judaism as more than a religion. “
Running away and hiding in your own country is your solution?
Dentists are often the most feared profession. (Lawyers are probably the most hated profession). Perhaps there is this extra facet for them too? Perhaps the real reason they are hated is not because they inflict pain or screw you in court respectively, but because they are a seperate ethnic group from anyone else. Obviously I am not suggesting that Jews inflict pain or screw people in court rooms. Equally with modern anestetics dentists don’t inflict anywhere near the pain they used to inflict anymore, though they are very deadly to your wallet. I make no appology for any negative connotations regarding Lawyers however… 🙂
“Just because Native Americans don’t have a state of their own do not deny any other group this right.”
Perhaps staying where they were and showing those around them that they are not as they are portrayed by those who don’t like them or those who don’t understand them was considered a better option.
“There are grievances on both sides of the conflict, you know, and oversimplifying it will hardly move us towards resolution. “
Yes perhaps the fact that they refused an offer of half the land they thought was theirs and the fact they have been fighting for 50 years to get it back means they don’t deserve to have their own country too… maybe in 1,000 years you’ll let them…. if they’re good…
“Yes it did, but that a small detail in a much bigger picture. Israel, who was 600,000 strong upon its formation, took in over one million people in the years following its creation. Not really on the same scale, I think.”
Not really sure what you are getting at here. After WWII orphaned Jewish children that needed a family were taken in by many countries. Are you suggesting that the rest of the world should have gone into Europe and rounded up a million or two to drag off to the rest of the world? The fact is they were not turned away because they were jewish. This suggests that it wasn’t the case that the whole world hated jews.
“What country in Europe would accept entire Jewish populations now wishing to leave. let’s say, Tunisia? They’d hardly even take individuals without the hassles of current immigration, but thousands of people? Only one nation would …”
Their home nation would be obligated to. If they were from France then France would take them in, if Britain then Britain would be responsible.
Many of the White farmers in Zimbabwe and South Africa are choosing to come here and to Australia. We take them in with no questions about their religion.
“One has nothing to do with the other. Almost all countries of the world are nation states to one degree or another. Does the existance of a Japanese state automatically suggest any other minorities are oppressed? The fact that discrimination exists in Israel today does not necessarily mean it should be dealt with outside the framework of an Israeli state, does it?”
You are creating a state of your own specifically for Jews because you don’t think any other state would not oppress you. This wonderful state that does not oppress Jews and does not oppress anyone else sounds very interesting… and you accuse me of being idealistic?
To answer your questions with your own arguments Yes the Japanese state must oppress Jews because by definition all states except a jewish one oppresses jews… that is of course why you needed your Jewish state in the first place isn’t it?
And if there is discrimination inside Israel today and the discrimination is against a minority how can the state solve the problem when the state is the problem?
“War is a bitch, Garry, it spoils a lot more than mixed marriages. The Arab Israeli town of Taibe is a 10 minutes drive from my home. My parents used to go shopping there once in a while. They don’t anymore, they’re afraid. It does not make them racist, you know, and it says absolutely nothing about my “new country”.”
I am sorry to hear about your situation but chosing not to go into a dangerous area to shop is common sense. It is not common sense that a Jew and a Palestinian shouldn’t marry. Love does not abide by politics.
“On the contrary. Most Argentinean and Russian Jews are secular, many Russians didn’t even know a thing about the Jewish rituals or festivals when they came here. Judaism, in it’s purely religious form, had practically nothing to do with it. There must be something more. Could it be a relation that transcends mere heavenly beliefs?”
Sounds more cultural than ethnic to me. The fact that their geographical isolation meant that their “dialect” is different is not really a surprise, in fact it is to be expected. Any two groups that are seperated will develop differently based on their environments and many other aspects of their lives. (For example a muslim in an arctic region may only be able to pray 2 times a day due to shortened daylight hours and the need to hunt etc etc. In an area where food is plentiful then more time and more complicated rituals can be developed and performed.)
The fact that they are both Jewish is their bond. If they were both catholic or agnostic or aviation enthusiasts then they would have a bond too.
“OK, now you’re whining. Oh, the horror. Those Israelis, how dare they build an affluent nation, they are strong, and therefore they must be exploiters, collectively responsible for plight of their suffering “victims”. Spoken like a true liberal, Garry. I can see that even when peace does arrives, some things will never change – whatever is wrong with Palestine will always be Israel’s fault.”
So what you are saying is that Israel will not interfere with a Palestinian state… yet you admit Israel blew up their airport because they were bringing in weapons.
No we aren’t the bad guys and you are whining. We are walling up our neighbours and destroying his airports. He can have as many weapons as we let him… no we aren’t bullies. They’ve only suffered for 50 years… 950 to go before they can whine like we do…. the whole world hates us.
“Palestine can be as much a Ghetto as Austria, Singapore or Switzerland are. It’s really up to them.”
How often does Austria get their airports destroyed for importing arms?
I was actually thinking of ghettos within states where there is no work, lots of crime, and lots of people with lots of time and nothing to do and no legal form of income. It could be in NY or Germany. Except there is no way out because this ghetto is also a state within a state. Indeed they could leave and become refugees but the world hates suicide bombers now more than they hate jews… talk about history repeating…
By: skythe - 1st July 2002 at 07:12
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-07-02 AT 07:23 AM (GMT)]”It is nothing to do with modern Europe that persecution arose. The faults lay with a far older generation “
So what? No one’s talking about fault, no one’s looking for compensation. This is about learning from past history, from events that still take place today and things that may yet happen in the future. The actual source of Anti-semitism is not of importance to this discussion. The fact that it exists is.
“I am doubtful that Jews do suffer more than other groups.”
Right now, no, but this is of little relevance. This whole thread is not about who suffered more or less, but about the fact that certain persecution has existed long enough to create the need for a separate state. Jewish rights do not compete with the rights of other people, no matter whether their suffering is larger or smaller.
“Indians and Pakistanis could do the same about Hindus and Muslims.”
Exactly. And should the need arise they could always return to India and Pakistan. Muslims alone have over 60 independent states, many of which clearly define themselves as Islamic republics (Iran, Afghanistan) or Islamic kingdoms (Morocco, Saudi Arabia). But a Jewish state? Heaven forbid …
“I do not accept that Jews faced more discrimination than blacks. Simple as that. I don’t feel the need to prove this point, as it is defensive. Your counter argument ought to be proven first – what studies can you point to?”
Then we’ll agree to disagree. I can’t point to any studies, what I can is point to 2000 years of history culminating in the destruction of a third of the world’s Jewish population. That and the fact that the nations of Africa are a given fact while a Jewish state is someting that the world has not yet come to grips with.
“So why can’t there be a black homeland?”
What exactly would you call the nations of Africa? Blacks have chosen to define themselves by criteria that extend beyond skin color (there you go again, ethnicity is beyonf the physical) and as such no single black nation exists. Should that change and they decide that blacks are one people then you could see a black homeland.
“Well, there isn’t and rightly so. Nor should there be a Jewish one. Or, for that matter, a muslim one either.”
That’s a very nice sentiment. Yes, we should all live in a united Earth with no discrimination at all. But reality dictates otherwise.
Furthermore, as you yourself said, Mongu, you live in a Christian state. Yes, I know, Britain is a great democracy where all religions are completely equal, with complete separation of church and state etc. but those are ideals that don’t really exist in full in any nation on Earth. Your head of state is also the head of the Anglican church, Oxford Street is decorated with Christmas trees every December, and your schools and media celebrate Christian holidays. No, it is not a religious authocracy, it is a very free society, but even you cannot deny it’s Christianity. Yes, others religions abound, but they also do in Israel, so why can’t it define itself as Jewish?
“come on, you can’t compare Israel to the UK. One is a mature state which has heavily influenced the modern world”
“I am trying to highlight the absurd notion that the UK could be stripped of soveriegnty; whereas this is maybe a little more feasible with Israel”
What is absurd is the notion held by the nationals of certain countries that their countries have more rights, more “maturity” or are more important or senior than any other states in the world, that their people deserve indepedence while others apparently don’t. The very notion stinks of arrogance anchored centuries in the past, back in the days of colonialism, back in the days when Europeans thought they were doing the “savages” some favour by endouring them with their culture and influence. Britain is not more nor less important that Israel, or Syria, or Nepal, or East Timor, or Japan, or Peru, or Bolivia, or Liberia, or Eritrea. Wake up, Mongu, Britannia no longer rules the waves!
Besides, do you think you’re the only one who can play that game? You want to talk about maturity? We Jews had our culture and indepedence when your people were still sun-worshiping cave-dwellers. Our culture is the basis for the beliefs of billions of people around the world. Maybe we should begin taking royalties for the use of the Bible! And what about the Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Egyptians and many others, are those mature enough that they deserve (thanks Garry) sovreignty, or should they be stripped of their indepedence? What is the criteria?
Frankly, I’m surprised. I had always thought that such sentiment, whereby certain people are more important or deserve certain rights while others don’t, is a thing of the past. Maybe we Israelis should be grateful for enlightened European interest in our affairs! You undoubtedly know what’s good for us!
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: serendib - 1st July 2002 at 00:37
good arguments Garry and Mongu.
For once I agree with mongu. I wish I could get involved in this banter, but I think Skythe has his hands full with Garry and mongu.
Sam.
By: Sauron - 30th June 2002 at 12:06
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
Why can’t there be a black homeland? Thats rich! Liberia maybe? Then again maybe a good part of the African continent. Just the place for those 20+ million black Americans that want to return to their roots.
Regards
By: skythe - 29th June 2002 at 22:14
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
Wow, replying to two such prolific posters at the same time is quite daunting. I’ll be getting back to Mongu at a later date. This one’s for Garry.
“I compared your opinion that Jews were a seperate race … not to damage your genitalia.”
Garry, my reply about equating Israel to the Nazis was intended for Seahawk and was in relation to a recent event in Germany. If you read his response you will see he understood my intention clearly enough. It was not related to our discussion.
I would like, however, to point out that I did not say Jews were a race (I don’t even know what a ‘race’ is) but rather an ethnic group. There’s a big difference between the two, at least from my point of view. As I’ve already mentioned, I don’t think ethnicity is physical alone.
“persist in suggesting that a religion and an ethnic group are the same thing”
But I did not say that! I wasn’t talking about religion in general, but specifically about Judaism, and I have quite clearly explained why. Of course religion is not the same as ethnicity, but to label Judaism as merely a religion lacks historical perspective.
“I see Palestinian homes being demolished for another Jewish settlement”
Settlements are indeed built and Palestinians homes are indeed demolished but the two events have very little in relation to one another. That’s a common misconception, that’s simply not the way settlements are built. But that’s an entirely different subject to the one at hand …
“I wonder if the way things have been done in the last 50 years whether you deserve it.”
Excuse me; you wonder if we “deserve” it? Israel exists not by virtue but by right, we do not have to justify our existence. We “deserve” it, as much as any other state “deserves” to exist. Have you ever wondered if Germany “deserves” to exist or if Brazil “deserves” so? That’s quite an arrogant statement, Garry, wouldn’t you say? In fact, I would go as far as to say that such sentiment is exactly why we deserve it!
“If Jewish people were a seperate ethnic group then Hitler would not have needed the help of early IBM machines to create a census… they could have just walked down the street pointing out all the jews.”
IF ethnicity was physical alone, yes, but that’s not the case, it’s far more abstract than that. It was exactly the Nazis who sought to formulate ethnicity or race through physical stereotypes and such pseudo-scientific notions as racial Darwinism.
Our problem, Garry, is that you seem to think that I claim that the moment a man converts to Judaism he suddenly drops out of the local collective and into another one, as if he undergoes some deep transformation, as if his DNA is somehow changed! You misunderstand me; I don’t think so at all. What I’m saying is that the man has just gained another facet to an already multi-faceted personality (as anyone is), which is beyond his mere religious beliefs. He is now not only all he was before but also a part of the Jewish nation. This may be insignificant at many moments of his life, and will certainly be so in current Western society, but there may come a time when it will be more than that, and not necessarily by the man’s choice. As I said, this is an abstract notion, not one for which a formula exists.
“I certainly wouldn’t run away from the problem.”
That’s a simplistic, if not chauvinistic, sentiment, not one by which millions of people can lead their lives. Do you think that all Jews should have opted to stay put in Europe just to avoid losing face? You do what you have to do, and if that calls for independence, then so be it.
“this stupidity can be based on ethnic hatred or religious hatred and therefore is not evidence that the Jewish people are an ethnic group.”
I disagree. Anti-Semitism is a hatred the world is simply unable to shake, just look at the length of time it has persisted (The story of Jews using young boys’ blood for Passover rituals was born in Britain sometime around the 12th century. You can still find it repeated to this day, the latest was in a Saudi newspaper only a few weeks ago). It may be small scale in certain parts of the world, but in others it is not. Unlike you, I can’t dismiss it as mere stupidity, but rather as such an ancient, lasting and sometimes lethal phenomenon as to bring about the definition of Judaism as more than a religion.
“The Gypsies have a similar history and some could say that the American Indians have had and continue to have a raw deal, yet they do not try to separate themselves from the rest of the world “
Because they’ve either not wished it so or because they were never given the choice or chance to do so. Besides, the point is irrelevant. Just because Native Americans don’t have a state of their own do not deny any other group this right.
“You have refused the PA the same so far.”
Oh please, as if that is what the whole Mid-East conflict is about, Israelis denying Palestinians their self-determination. Yes, let us all forget about the 1947 Palestine Partition Plan that the Palestinians rejected, or consecutive attempts to destroy Israel, or the still persistent incitement against the very existence of Israel, or 50 years of terrorism and de-legitimization. There are grievances on both sides of the conflict, you know, and oversimplifying it will hardly move us towards resolution.
“Did the world not take in Jewish orphans after WWII?”
Yes it did, but that a small detail in a much bigger picture. Israel, who was 600,000 strong upon its formation, took in over one million people in the years following its creation. Not really on the same scale, I think.
“(Growl… we are an evil anti semetic world…)”
I don’t really think so, but at least I know there’s one place in the world which I am sure is free of that sickness …
“That must be the US… or has their support been of no help at all?”
Actually, it has been of immense use, and that’s only one reason why we appreciate it so much. A country that actually translates values into deeds, unlike other who dispense unhelpful quasi-moral diatribe from behind their fortress walls, n’est pas? }>
“It is a shame you choose to make a joke of what happened in South Africa.”
No I didn’t, lighten up.
“Sorry for my ignorance but can some English posters on this forum please post some pictures from Heathrow airport where any Jews who try to sneak into Britain are taken aside and shot. Perhaps a few Belgian posters can show pictures of the pits where they put all of the Jews who try to enter Europe by sea are burned?”
Yes, let’s be extreme instead of actually dealing with facts. White settlers in Zimbabwe are descended from Europeans and are culturally almost the same. European nations would take them in without a second thought. What country in Europe would accept entire Jewish populations now wishing to leave. let’s say, Tunisia? They’d hardly even take individuals without the hassles of current immigration, but thousands of people? Only one nation would …
“What I am trying to point out is that in trying to create your own state to avoid oppression of jews you are creating another state that oppresses minorities”
One has nothing to do with the other. Almost all countries of the world are nation states to one degree or another. Does the existance of a Japanese state automatically suggest any other minorities are oppressed? The fact that discrimination exists in Israel today does not necessarily mean it should be dealt with outside the framework of an Israeli state, does it?
“I mean it is not even OK to marry palestinians!!! What does this say about your new country.”
The fact that such events don’t often take place is because of the tragic events underway around us. It does not mean it’s not OK by definition or that it has not happened before or will not happen again. War is a bitch, Garry, it spoils a lot more than mixed marriages. The Arab Israeli town of Taibe is a 10 minutes drive from my home. My parents used to go shopping there once in a while. They don’t anymore, they’re afraid. It does not make them racist, you know, and it says absolutely nothing about my “new country”.
“I don’t know how you could possibly suggest they are not religionist.”
On the contrary. Most Argentinean and Russian Jews are secular, many Russians didn’t even know a thing about the Jewish rituals or festivals when they came here. Judaism, in it’s purely religious form, had practically nothing to do with it. There must be something more. Could it be a relation that transcends mere heavenly beliefs?
“Racism doesn’t apply as Judism is not a race… it may have been at one time but your talk of Russian, Argentine, European, Ethiopian etc etc means it is now just a religion”
No it just means what I said before, that it’s an abstract notion, an identity that augments, not replaces other ones.
“How many with political power (ie all departments from military to education etc etc) are not Jewish? If not is there any room in the government for non Jews?
If there is are there any restrictions to which posts they can hold?”
Israeli Arabs and other minorities are represented in all parts of Israeli government. Off the top of my head, the commander of the Givati infantry brigade is a Druze (bear in mind we only have four regular infantry brigades), and he is not even the highest ranking non-Jew in the military. One has only recently been appointed Major-General (don’t remember the post), the second highest rank in the IDF. Despite what you may believe Garry, being Jewish is not a criteria for holding a post in Israel. Israeli Arabs have held Israeli diplomatic posts, including ambassadorships.
Not that there is no room for improvement. Arab Israelis, for instance, are underrepresented in Parliament. Those are problems we all have to deal with, but they exist for a number of reasons and are certainly not ingrained in law.
“My point is that if you allow people of any religion to hold office …”
Too bad that ‘if’ does not apply …
“Any restrictions on the religion of those in office …”
restriction which don’t exist …
“one Jewish and one Palestinian then I can’t see the latter getting a fair go”
Please define “a fair go”. At least the armies of 5 neighbors won’t invade them when their state is established. This is really verging on whining.
“Looking at the land where the Palestinians are to be given for their state they will not have much chance to prosper…”
Why not? Look at Hong Kong or Singapore, or Israel for that matter. Ultimately, it is the people, not the land that would make the difference.
“The Palestinians have been told by Israel in the past that they will not be allowed their own port, or airport”
Simply not true. They could have both and they were never told they could have neither. You’re coming to wrong conclusions from events you barely understand. Israel destroyed Dahania airport because it was being used to smuggle weapons, not because of some fundamental refusal to allow a Palestinian airport. It was a punitive action, taken in the prospective of the current fighting. You’re really looking too much into it.
“I doubt that any plans for power stations involving the use of the atom would get very far either.”
No, it won’t. If only because no one is his right mind is going that way these days. Of course, imagine that Israelis should be worried about nuclear proliferation among those who still preach for their destruction!
“Even with their own state their powerful neighbour will keep them small and weak… A ready source of cheap labour nice and close to Israel that can be closed up if it starts to get too big for its boots”
OK, now you’re whining. Oh, the horror. Those Israelis, how dare they build an affluent nation, they are strong, and therefore they must be exploiters, collectively responsible for plight of their suffering “victims”. Spoken like a true liberal, Garry. I can see that even when peace does arrives, some things will never change – whatever is wrong with Palestine will always be Israel’s fault.
“like a big open concentration camp or ghetto.”
Indeed. Like the Warsaw Ghetto, you must mean. You know, the one where 20 people survived out of a population of 500,000 at the start of the war. I’m glad we can keep the discussion at a reasonable and factual level.
Palestine can be as much a Ghetto as Austria, Singapore or Switzerland are. It’s really up to them.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: mongu - 26th June 2002 at 21:48
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
Of course Jews can “forget” what happened. It is nothing to do with modern Europe that persecution arose. The faults lay with a far older generation.
The point about Judaism being an individual mix of religion and ethnicity sounds very theological. To what extent does the same apply to all religions? I would suggest, as has been pointed out, that the word “cultural” is possibly more appropriate than “ethnic”.
Furthermore, I am doubtful that Jews do suffer more than other groups. You included a list of news reports highlighting discrimination against Jews.
But, I could do the same exercise and place the emphasis on blacks, or asians or homosexuals. Indians and Pakistanis could do the same about Hindus and Muslims.
I do not accept that Jews faced more discrimination than blacks. Simple as that. I don’t feel the need to prove this point, as it is defensive. Your counter argument ought to be proven first – what studies can you point to?
So why can’t there be a black homeland?
Well, there isn’t and rightly so. Nor should there be a Jewish one. Or, for that matter, a muslim one either.
Lastly…come on, you can’t compare Israel to the UK. One is a mature state which has heavily influenced the modern world and even gave us the language we use for this debate. Britain is supposedly a Christian (neither Catholic nor Protestant, despite a slightly Protestant emphasis) nation, but other religions abound too.
Israel can claim none of these. If you’re talking pragmatism, the UK is the 4th wealthiest of the industrialised countries.
My point is not to pour scorn on Israel, because some of that countries’ achievements have been remarkable. Rather, I am trying to highlight the absurd notion that the UK could be stripped of soveriegnty; whereas this is maybe a little more feasible with Israel.
By: Arabella-Cox - 26th June 2002 at 09:48
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
“You can critisize Israel, the question is how. Someone who compares Israel to the Nazis is simply taking a shot below the belt, rather than tackling the facts head on”
I compared your opinion that Jews were a seperate race with the Nazi attempts to do the same with science to point out that you were wrong… not to damage your genitalia.
You say yourself you don’t want to forget history… one of the ways to prevent mistakes is to learn from history, but if you would like to persist in suggesting that a religion and an ethnic group are the same thing then I will bring up evidence from history… human history that is which includes nazi history as well… that refutes your claims.
“It shows a dire need for perspective and a little more knowldege of history.”
Don’t take it so personally. During the height of the cold war the Good and right and fair US often accused the evil bad and plainly wrong Soviets of doing many things that they were doing themselves.
Recognition of this was always much easier away from the coal face of what was the cold war. When I point out these errors many US born people don’t recognise it and claim I am Anti-US.
When I do the same regarding Israel some may think I am anti Semetic.
Well I am not a gifted enough debater to change 16-30 years of immersion in propaganda.
Do I hate the US… No though I do dislike some of the things that they have done.
Do I hate Nazis… Absolutely and I do so while recognising that not all germans were nazis and that not all nazis were german.
Do I hate Communists… not really, there is too much room for corruption for it to work as a system of government any time soon if ever but sometimes democracy doesn’t work either. Also unlike Nazism there was no real overt racism involved though of course I am not naive enough to think there was no racism perpetrated in the name of communism but then why should communism not be used the same way most religions have been used.
“After all Garry, you would not deny the Jews the same thing you support for the Palestinians, would you?”
I think everyone deserves a place to call home. I understand a little of what you mean when you say the Jewish people need the same but when I see Palestinian homes being demolished for another Jewish settlement I wonder if the way things have been done in the last 50 years whether you deserve it.
“If you’re singled out, if you are repeatedly considered different simply because you belong to a certain group of people, then you got something to think about. “
So teenagers are an ethnic group?
A jewish person is singled out as you say for the simple reason that they are jewish. Their choice of religion. It doesn’t matter what colour their skin is or what language they speak. How tall they are or how many children they have had is not the criteria for Pogroms… it is “…are you Jewish?”.
If Jewish people were a seperate ethnic group then Hitler would not have needed the help of early IBM machines to create a census… they could have just walked down the street pointing out all the jews.
“But the above comment is beautiful is a sense. If you wish, I could provide you with a similar comment made by a German Jew a century ago”
I am a cynical Athiest bordering on Agnosticism… and happy to remain so, but thank you for the offer 🙂 .
“It has to do with everything. As I said, when you’re singled out, when you are made different, then you’ve got a thing to think about. “
I am different.
I have been singled out from the age of about 14 for my size. I never considered travelling 15,000km and creating a new country for big people. We had several children of “different” religons in my classes. 7th day adventests, Lutherens, Jehovahs Witnesses. I don’t think I ever heard any teasing because of religion all the time I was at school. I was often teased about my size… though often in a friendly way… perhaps out of fear.
“You wouldn’t dismiss such things so easily if it were your child’s school bus that was firebombed.”
I certainly wouldn’t run away from the problem.
What I meant was that you were talking about the Jewish religion being more than a religion and seemed to back that up by suggesting that firebombing buses and desecration of graves was evidence of it. I would suggest that these are indeed examples of stupidity but that this stupidity can be based on ethnic hatred or religious hatred and therefore is not evidence that the Jewish people are an ethnic group.
“I agree, but when that stupidity has lasted as long as it has, you can’t really ignore it, can you? You’d draw the obvious conclusion that you would do best on your own.”
The Gypsies have a similar history and some could say that the American Indians have had and continue to have a raw deal, yet they do not try to seperate themselves from the rest of the world.
You talk about the need for self determination and self government and I can certainly understand that… but you now have that.
Obviously the quality of the state you have created is compromised by the way it was created and of course idiots on both sides who think the solution is to kill all of the guys on the other side… by LGB or Human Guided Suicide Bomb.
You have refused the PA the same so far.
“But there are more than enough places that would take in fleeing Christians, “
Not Australia… }>
Did the world not take in Jewish orphans after WWII?
I remember quite a few came here and to Australia and the US… but of course we butchered them didn’t we… ’cause no one likes a jew. (Growl… we are an evil anti semetic world…)
“There is only one state that looks out for world Jewry.”
That must be the US… or has their support been of no help at all?
“Three cheers for South Africa. But what if it had been different, like in Zimbabwe? White South Africans will always be accepted in Europe. Wish I could say the same about Jews.”
It is a shame you choose to make a joke of what happened in South Africa.
You make fun of one country where both sides made huge compromises for the prospect of peaceful future relations and peace for the country as a whole.
The Situation in Zimbabwe is very much like the situation in Israel… we are in charge we make the rules move those white people out and put black settlers in there…
“Wish I could say the same about Jews.”
Sorry for my ignorance but can some English posters on this forum please post some pictures from Heathrow airport where any Jews who try to sneak into Britain are taken aside and shot. Perhaps a few Belgian posters can show pictures of the pits where they put all of the Jews who try to enter Europe by sea are burned?
I can’t speak for the rest of the world but religion is not even criteria for coming to live in NZ.
“Today, as things are (again, that annoying thing, Reality), no you cannot be both Jewish and Palestinian. If Judaism were merely a religion then you could, but a Jewish-Palestinian is something that simply does not exist!”
Funny that reality thing. The other day CNN showed a report where a Palestinian and a Jew were married in a Jewish ceremony. Both were initially ostricised by their families, but eventually both accepted the union (mainly because they had no choice in the matter). Friends and neighbours were a different story.
The fact that it was on TV suggests that it was not a normal occurance. The fact that it wasn’t normal is probably the real problem in the ME.
“But I can see what you’re striving at Garry. Yes, Israel is a terrible country because it has the audacity to take in people based on their religious beliefs alone. “
I am not striving to prove that Israel is good or bad.
What I am trying to point out is that in trying to create your own state to avoid oppression of jews you are creating another state that oppresses minorities… I mean it is not even OK to marry palestinians!!! What does this say about your new country. (If I call the Palestinians the “Untermention”… that are not to be married or socialised with does this clear up the parallel I was going to mention… that was so far below the belt your knee will be hurting for a week… 🙂 )
“Yes, it’s a horrible place that took in the survivors of the holocaust and built new lives for them, it took in Arab Jews expelled from the Arab world, It took in Argentinean Jews persecuted by the Peron regime, it took in Soviet Jews fleeing communism, it saved Ethiopian Jews from an unknown fate. What a terrible racist country! Israel will always be a refuge for Jews, for whatever reason they feel the need to leave their home countries. If only because no one else will.”
I agree that Israel is not Terrible for taking in “Victims”. I don’t know how you could possibly suggest they are not religionist. (Racism doesn’t apply as Judism is not a race… it may have been at one time but your talk of Russian, Argentine, European, Ethiopian etc etc means it is now just a religion).
“You’re absolutely right, Garry, but you’re talking about ideal places. A Jewish/Palestinian could in theory be democratic. In practice? Not in the foreseeable future. The question is: do you want the conflict resolved? If the answer is ‘yes’ then the two states solution is the most practicable one.”
Of course it is idealistic but isn’t that also a good goal. I would say that with all of the faction groups who don’t want any peace deal to be signed (except a peace deal they like which would involve the removal of all arabs or jews from the whole place… which is a deal that noone is going to put on the table anyway and they know it) that the idea of no peace process till there is 7 days of peace is just as idealistic and far more unrealistic.
“Yes, Israel is a country for the Jews, but not theirs alone.”
How many with political power (ie all departments from military to education etc etc) are not Jewish?
If not is there any room in the government for non Jews?
If there is are there any restrictions to which posts they can hold?
My point is that if you allow people of any religion to hold office then your dream country where jews cannot be “slaves” can only be maintained as long as the majority of the population is jewish.
Any restrictions on the religion of those in office is of course non-democratic, and while not racist… as we are talking religion and not race here it is a type of discrimination… ironically of the form you say you are trying to escape from.
“The establishment of a Palestinian state will be the first step in the right direction, following which other positive changes will also take place. The prospect of a bi-national democracy instead of Israel is an empty promise (which great Arab democracy will it look like?) that will solve nothing.”
The problem I see is that if two seperate states are created… one Jewish and one Palestinian then I can’t see the latter getting a fair go. Looking at the land where the Palestinians are to be given for their state they will not have much chance to prosper… The Palestinians have been told by Israel in the past that they will not be allowed their own port, or airport. I doubt that any plans for power stations involving the use of the atom would get very far either. Even with their own state their powerful neighbour will keep them small and weak… like a big open concentration camp or ghetto. A ready source of cheap labour nice and close to Israel that can be closed up if it starts to get too big for its boots.
“There are extremist nut-jobs like this all over the internet. You guys really don’t take him seriously, do you?”
I think we all agree that this guy is obviously at his wits end through sheer frustration. It is a shame that he has gone further away from a good solution than closer to one.
By: djcross - 25th June 2002 at 17:51
RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
There are extremist nut-jobs like this all over the internet. You guys really don’t take him seriously, do you?
By: seahawk - 25th June 2002 at 10:11
RE: examples?
That is what the member of a regional parliament named Karsai (spelling ?) said and he was criticised of that. It is ok to do that imo.
But it has hit other politicains as well. One defended the right of Mr. Karsai to speak his mind about the on goings in Israel and that from Mr. Karsai´s perspective (he is of arab origin) things must feel different to what jewish or german people feel about such a comparision.
But furthermore a former Minister Mr. Blüm said that he did not like the behavior of Israel in palestina and said they are building ghettos for the palestinians. And guess what he was attacked too.
I know that not the Jews in general are to blame but some Jewish leaders in germany are taking it too far imo. First is the right of free speech and it should be for everyone. And instead of starting a discussion on why the Israeli reaction is neccessary or what they believe it does for the Israeli people they just claim that the critics are against Jews in general and how disgusting that is in a country with germans history.
I know that the individual jew in europe or else where has nothing to do with that, but I do not like the behavior of some leaders at the moment.
By: skythe - 25th June 2002 at 09:57
RE: examples?
2. You can critisize Israel, the question is how. Someone who compares Israel to the Nazis is simply taking a shot below the belt, rather than tackling the facts head on. It shows a dire need for perspective and a little more knowldege of history.
3. I’ve got one word for you, Seahawk : Tibet.
4. You understand wrong, I never said that. Israel does reserve the right to look out for Jews wherever they are, but translating it into launching wars is really too far fetched. Israel evacuated Ethiopian Jews, it did not invade the country! You did not see Markavas roling off ships on the beaches of Eritrea!
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: skythe - 25th June 2002 at 09:41
RE: This is really disgusting …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-06-02 AT 09:46 AM (GMT)]> They shouldn’t forget the past but I think they could try to forgive it. A group of
> nutters called Nazis wanted to get rid of your religion.
> Get over it.
> Jewish people don’t have a monopoly on hardship you know.
I never claimed that Jews alone have suffered. You’re once again missing the point. I brought up the Holocaust because it is the best example of why Jews can’t simply accept a situation where they are stateless, subject to the whim and fancy of this or that administration. Jews have repeatedly suffered at the hands of one master or another and as such need an independent state of their own. After all Garry, you would not deny the Jews the same thing you support for the Palestinians, would you?
> Ethnicity is a physical thing… what you are referring to is cultural… or do you
>agree with the Nazi party that strenuously tried to seperate jews from the arian
>race by charactarising them as a seperate ethnic group with big ears and big
>noses?
Certainly not. But we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You see, I don’t think ethnicity is merely physical. If you’re singled out, if you are repeatedly considered different simply because you belong to a certain group of people, then you got something to think about. To that we add centuries of European hostility towards Jews, in all shapes and forms, no matter the time or geography, and behold, a new nation is born. Reality at work.
> I would still be a european NZer who just happened to be Jewish.
Yes you would. Right now. But should things be different one day, you’ll now also have a place that will take you in. But the above comment is beautiful is a sense. If you wish, I could provide you with a similar comment made by a German Jew a century ago. History proved otherwise.
>”How many Christian school buses or churches have been firebombed in France
>lately?”
> First of all what has this to do with anything?
It has to do with everything. As I said, when you’re singled out, when you are made different, then you’ve got a thing to think about. You wouldn’t dismiss such things so easily if it were your child’s school bus that was firebombed.
> Religious hatred only relates to ethnic hatred in the sence that is is stupid and > relies on the stupidity of those involved.
I agree, but when that stupidity has lasted as long as it has, you can’t really ignore it, can you? You’d draw the obvious conclusion that you would do best on your own.
> Second if you change location to India or many other countries where Christians
> are a minority and I’d say quite a few.
Exactly. But there are more than enough places that would take in fleeing Christians, more than enough people and nations to look out for them. There is only one state that looks out for world Jewry.
> Not forgotten… just forgiven… South African can do it and they are stuck in
> this world too. They have greatly benefitted from making this choice. Sure
> crime is high as is unemployment but these were existing problems there
> anyway.
Three cheers for South Africa. But what if it had been different, like in Zimbabwe? White South Africans will always be accepted in Europe. Wish I could say the same about Jews.
> So what you are saying is there is no room in the jewish religion for
> Palestinains?
No, you’re saying that. But that, in fact, is probably the best example of why Jews are an ethnic group. Today, as things are (again, that annoying thing, Reality), no you cannot be both Jewish and Palestinian. If Judaism were merely a religion then you could, but a Jewish-Palestinian is something that simply does not exist!
> The only thing they shared with the locals was religion. Different ethnically is
>OK for your new state but must be the same religion… is that the criteria?
No, out of a population of 6 million there are more than 1 million Christians and Muslims in Israel. But I can see what you’re striving at Garry. Yes, Israel is a terrible country because it has the audacity to take in people based on their religious beliefs alone. Yes, it’s a horrible place that took in the survivors of the holocaust and built new lives for them, it took in Arab Jews expelled from the Arab world, It took in Argentinean Jews persecuted by the Peron regime, it took in Soviet Jews fleeing communism, it saved Ethiopian Jews from an unknown fate. What a terrible racist country! Israel will always be a refuge for Jews, for whatever reason they feel the need to leave their home countries. If only because no one else will.
> Demands for your own state with self rule and nobody else telling you what to
> do suggests that it is jews who refuse to be part of the collective
Cause and effect, Garry, Jewish demands for self-determination are a direct result of European anti-Semitism. What self-determination did Jews demand of Spain when in expelled them in 1492? Alfred Dreyfus, didn’t even know what Zionism is. It berely even existed in his days!
> Hahahaha… sorry but it sounds like your safe place isn’t very safe…
Right now, no, it’s not the safest place in the world. But it could be.
>perhaps partly to do with the way it was built…
Well, the implementation was not as perfect a it was hoped, but that’s an entire subject altogether.
> What do you mean… are you saying that Israel wasn’t jewish land 1,000 years
> ago and you have just pinched it from the arabs?
My mistake. That should read : “But I do also want Israel that can be the homeland Jews didn’t have when they needed it most.” Besides, I was talking about Israel in the political sense, nothing to do with the Arab Israeli conflict.
> Could a jewish/palestinian state not be democratic. Any democracy that doesn’t > use religion as a basis should in theory be a safe secure place for all religions to > coexist
You’re absolutely right, Garry, but you’re talking about ideal places. A Jewish/Palestinian could in theory be democratic. In practice? Not in the foreseeable future. The question is: do you want the conflict resolved? If the answer is ‘yes’ then the two states solution is the most practicable one.
> It is when religion is written into law forcing all other religions to conform that
> problems occur
True, but Israel is not ruled by Jewish law. Israel does actually uphold freedom of worship. Israel’s definition as the “Jewish state” is misleading, because it implies the very state is Jewish. The very term “Jewish State” is not even used in local discourse, but rather the “Jews’ State”. Same words, a world of difference apart. Yes, Israel is a country for the Jews, but not theirs alone.
> I can of course understand that but if it takes Israel in a direction away from
> where non Jewish inhabitants want to go then don’t you see that your eutopia
> is making the arabs the “victim” jews in their own country that you fear for
> your own people.
Israel is far from perfect. I am fully aware that discrimination exists, and that there are many wrongs to be made right. The establishment of a Palestinian state will be the first step in the right direction, following which other positive changes will also take place. The prospect of a bi-national democracy instead of Israel is an empty promise (which great Arab democracy will it look like?) that will solve nothing.
> I am naive and acadmicaly minded but I’m not stupid.
Never said you were, and I apologize if I implied it (did I? Where?). I would have never spent the time discussing the matter with you had I thought as much.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: seahawk - 25th June 2002 at 08:38
RE: examples?
Some thoughts.
1st:
I believe that Jewish graveyards are not more often disicrated the other in europe. The only difference is that if it is a jewish grave it makes it to the headlines, while if it is a christian or muslim grave it is no news.
2nd : What I really do not like about some jewish politicians is that they always refer to the holocaust when they are criticised. (especially here in germany – you cannot say anything against Israel without having to defend yourself from being a Nazi)
You can criticse every country, except Israel. As long as this is the case the Jews are not integrated into the society in the same way as the others are, as they themselves demand a special position. (Kind of the moral heart of germany) If I can criticise Turkey, China or Palestina nothing is said about it (yet more arabs of palestinian origin living in germany then Jews), but if I say something against Israel I´m a Nazi. Why is that ??
3rd : I can think of many ehtnic/religous groups that could demand an own state to have a safe heaven in time of a crisis. How about buddishts and their treatment by China ?
4th : If I understand you correctly you see it as the right of Israel to attack any country if a jewish minority their is mistreated. What gives you or Israel that right ??
By: Arabella-Cox - 25th June 2002 at 07:08
examples?
here’s a very very good example, decades you said Garry on Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese? You’re very wrong. It was for as long as their history seems to indicate. Again, remember my sayings about “Romancicizing with the victims”. Nobody wants to be a victim and Skythe, why would you want someone to indicate to you more wrongs on a group of people than the JEWS? Again, nobody wants to be victim. Here’s a counterpoint to you, Korea has been invaded again and again and subjugated or remedialized by both the Chinese and Japanese for centuries. You see today that they Co-hosted the world cup. In your theory, they’re fraticizing with the enemy? Sure, Korea more often than not have bitched about the Japanese, but they both understand more and respect more toward each other today. The point here is, Korea got its soverignty, and with that comes with responsibilities and forgeting the past. How come Jews have not much problem with Germans these days? The problem in Israel/Palestine is simply greed for land. Greed for the bragging rights to the “Holy Land”. “settlements” are for words used to describe unclaimed land. Who are you joking here that of all the places on this planet, one of the oldest area of the world have unclaim lands so it can be labeled “settlements”? And being critical on the Palestinians, these suicide bombings aren’t desperation, it’s a weapon of war. That’s ok, but when you use these weapons purposely on civilians, then you just committed the most serious of the war crimes. Both seems to ignore each other’s sins (remember GREED is a SIN) except when it comes to blame so both is as guilty. In other words, i could careless if whos JEWS and whos Palestinians. there was no sincerety in the leadership. What matters is TODAY, you don’t live 50,100,1000,5000 years ago.
As to the original post, that IS disgusting. I thought that’s pretty obvious. What a moronic guy.
By: Arabella-Cox - 25th June 2002 at 02:47
RE: This is really disgusting …
They shouldn’t forget the past but I think they could try to forgive it. A group of nutters called Nazis wanted to get rid of your religion.
Get over it.
6 million were killed in a terrible way… at least 25 million Russians died too yet Germany seems to be one of their best friend in Europe now (along with France). Many other slavic people died as well.
Jewish people don’t have a monopoly on hardship you know.
It wasn’t just in Europe that suffering has taken place… in asia the Japanese were brutal too with China and Korea and many other countries suffering… many for over a decade… not just during the magic 41-45 that the soviets recognise or the 39-45 that the British see as WWII.
“True, but that’s outward appearance alone. You could actually find yourself suddenly different. “
Ethnicity is a physical thing… what you are referring to is cultural… or do you agree with the Nazi party that strenuously tried to seperate jews from the arian race by charactarising them as a seperate ethnic group with big ears and big noses?
If I converted to Judism my actions would change, my habits would change (fewer visits to strip clubs) the minor physical change of a certain cutting of a certain part of my anatomy would also have to take place. I would have to learn a lot of rituals and change my eating habits, but apart from the above mentioned minor surgery and maybe a hairstyle change I would still be a european NZer who just happened to be Jewish.
“How many Christian school buses or churches have been firebombed in France lately?”
First of all what has this to do with anything? Religious hatred only relates to ethnic hatred in the sence that is is stupid and relies on the stupidity of those involved.
Second if you change location to India or many other countries where Christians are a minority and I’d say quite a few.
“How many graveyards desicrated across Europe?”
I don’t know… I don’t live in Europe but in Christchurch several graves have been desecrated and human remains have been taken (e Skulls).
Again nothing to do with seperating religion from ethnicity.
“Ethnicity doesn’t necessarily revolve around your appearance. “
And how does desecration and bus bombs show that?
Can we agree that ethnicities are grouped… (my ethnic group is European).
What makes me European in the eyes of those around me? My voice? My accent? and My looks.
My english language, my NZ accent and my white skin make me European.
My niece is Maori. She also speaks english and has a NZ accent and has darker skin. She has fuller lips and a small wider nose than most europeans. These features I use to identify her as Maori.
Bill Cosby has very dark skin, he has an American accent but speaks English. From this I identify him as being an African American… much the same way as I am a European NZer.
To say all blacks look alike is ignorant. (If you can’t tell the difference between Will Smith and Bill Cosby then you ar a moron.)
To say black people from one ethnic group share common characteristics that identify their ethnicity is true and before DNA testing that is all we had to go on in identifying ethnicity. It is of course not infallible… expecially with mixed breeding.
There are no full blooded Maoris left …all are of mixed blood.
Some “Black” people are whiter that some white people… George Hamilton is a darkly tanned white man while Mrya(spelling) Carey looks white.
Two jews could have nothing in common except their beliefs and yet they remain Jewish. Beliefs and rituals and the number of times you pray per day and the type of building you pray in have nothing to do with where your family came from.
“Hardly, of course they can. But do you really think a century of hostility can be forgotten? Only in an idealic and altruistic world, not in the one we live in. The current, best and only solution is a two states solution, however romantic any other notion is.”
Not forgotten… just forgiven… South African can do it and they are stuck in this world too. They have greatly benefitted from making this choice. Sure crime is high as is unemployment but these were existing problems there anyway.
“Culture, language, religion, history, and more. That is what makes two ethnics groups different. Actually, a lot less does.”
So what you are saying is there is no room in the jewish religion for Palestinains?
Tell me what history, language, culture did the people of Israel share with all of the Russian Jewish immigrants? The only thing they shared with the locals was religion. Different ethnically is OK for your new state but must be the same religion… is that the criteria?
“Jews can coexist with others, but there will always be places and people who refuse to see Jews as part of the collective. “
Demands for your own state with self rule and nobody else telling you what to do suggests that it is jews who refuse to be part of the collective.
“Antisemitism is not a Jewish problem, its not the Jews’ fault, much as white supremacy is not the black man’s fault.”
Very true.
“Slavs weren’t on the point of being wiped out. “
And neither were Jews many escaped europe and were quite safe in the US.
“It is the refuge should anything catastophic happen for any reason. “
Hahahaha… sorry but it sounds like your safe place isn’t very safe… perhaps partly to do with the way it was built…
“Would anyone else have saved them?”
They could have told the US there was oil there…
“But I do also want Israel that can be the homeland Jews never had…”
What do you mean… are you saying that Israel wasn’t jewish land 1,000 years ago and you have just pinched it from the arabs?
“Where did I say that ?!?!? You’re coming to your own misguided conclusions here. What I want is a democratic, equal right Israel which is home to Jews and non-Jews alike, much the same as I wish Jewish right respected abroad. But I do also want Israel that can be the homeland Jews never had and which they can always count on for support, no matter how dark the times are. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, yes, but not necessarily theirs exclusive. “
A homeland for the Jewish people… Not wanting to share with the Palestinians. Could a jewish/palestinian state not be democratic. Any democracy that doesn’t use religion as a basis should in theory be a safe secure place for all religions to coexist. (It is when religion is written into law forcing all other religions to conform that problems occur.)
You have said you don’t want to be controlled… to have “arab masters”, you want to control your destiny. I can of course understand that but if it takes Israel in a direction away from where non Jewish inhabitants want to go then don’t you see that your eutopia is making the arabs the “victim” jews in their own country that you fear for your own people.
I am naive and acadmicaly minded but I’m not stupid.
By: skythe - 24th June 2002 at 22:21
RE: This is really disgusting …
> Why can’t you forget the past?
Really Mongu, you cannot be serious. The entire notion is ridiculous. If you don’t learn from your past how are you ever going to learn anything? Besides, do you really expect Jews to say, “that’s all in the past, it will never happen again”? Do you have fortune-telling abilities?
Anyway, I don’t even know how you can talk about the past :
Russian woman hurt in blast while removing anti-Semitic sign (27/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=169128&contr…
Explosion damages Canadian synagogue in Quebec (19/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165640&contr…
London synagogue attacked for a second time (01/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157949&contr…
Arson attack on Berlin synagogue, but no damage (29/04/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157355&contr…
Security increased around Belgian synagogue after shooting (22/04/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154689&contr…
There’s plenty more where that came from.
> In pre-WW2 Europe, Jews were no more “gotten at” than lots of other
> peoples – it’s just unusual that a religion was targeted rather
> than an ethnic group (like slavs or gipsies). That, as of itself,
> is no justification to class Jews together ethnically
I beg to differ. 2,000 years of persecution are more than enough, and are quite unparalleled, even in European history. Do you know of any other group which was expelled at one time or another from every European country?
You see Mongu, it’s not that Jews chose to be a separate nation – Europe made it so. Emanicapation was supposed to solve that question by making Jews equal citizens of their host nations. But that reality was never realised. It may be mostly true today, but it was very different until not so long ago, and who knows what tidings the future brings. Point is, Israel exists today so that Jews don’t have to take that chance.
> If I’m thinking correcrtly, Jews would be of mixed ethnicity,
> mainly because of the historical expulsion from Israel and
> subsequent scattering.
You’re taking a very literal interpretation of enthnicity, as if ethnicity is dependant on genetics. You become a part of the nation whether you’re born into it or you’re converted, you don’t have to take a blood test. It a matter of choice, not something eched in stone.
>The alternative is that Judaism is, as you say, more ethnic than
>religious. Would this make the “religon” part of Judaism
>discriminatory – Blacks, Arabs (!) or Asians couldn’t convert?
Hardly, as I said, it’s not about genetics. There are in fact, thousands of black Jews. Also, I never said it was more ethnic than religious. It is rather both, and anyone can put the emphasis where he chooses. If one so wishes, he can claim to be nothing more than a man of Jewish persuation. It does not mean he’s any worse that any other Jew in the world. I am an Israeli, but that does not make me any more Jewish than Jews living in Europe, American or Australia, even if I do live in the “Jewish State”.
Bottom line – it’s a very abstract notion, there is no single formula to define Judaism, only it is simply not merely a religion.
>How about if Israel (and Palestine) were stripped of their
>sovereignty and administered under an international mandate? Then
>both sides would have a common enemy and would miracuously get on…
No problem, right after the keys to 10 Downing St. are handed over to the UN, you can expect the Israeli delegation to be next in line…
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: mongu - 24th June 2002 at 21:37
RE: This is really disgusting …
Why can’t you forget the past?
In pre-WW2 Europe, Jews were no more “gotten at” than lots of other peoples – it’s just unusual that a religion was targeted rather than an ethnic group (like slavs or gipsies). That, as of itself, is no justification to class Jews together ethnically.
If I’m thinking correcrtly, Jews would be of mixed ethnicity, mainly because of the historical expulsion from Israel and subsequent scattering.
The alternative is that Judaism is, as you say, more ethnic than religious. Would this make the “religon” part of Judaism discriminatory – Blacks, Arabs (!) or Asians couldn’t convert?
How about if Israel (and Palestine) were stripped of their sovereignty and administered under an international mandate? Then both sides would have a common enemy and would miracuously get on…
By: skythe - 24th June 2002 at 17:34
RE: This is really disgusting …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-06-02 AT 05:38 PM (GMT)]Once again we are in disagreement, Garry. I think this is because your opinion is more idealic and academic and mine’s practical and realistic.
> I could convert to become a jew… I can’t convert to become a
> black person or an asian person
True, but that’s outward appearance alone. You could actually find yourself suddenly different. How many Christian school buses or churches have been firebombed in France lately? How many graveyards desicrated across Europe? Ethnicity doesn’t necessarily revolve around your appearance.
>what you are suggesting is that two different ethnic groups are
>incapable of living together. It is sad that you think that.
Hardly, of course they can. But do you really think a century of hostility can be forgotten? Only in an idealic and altruistic world, not in the one we live in. The current, best and only solution is a two states solution, however romantic any other notion is.
>I assume when you say that Jews and Palestinians are seperate ethnic
>groups you mean that they have different cultures. This is not the
>same thing.
Culture, language, religion, history, and more. That is what makes two ethnics groups different. Actually, a lot less does.
>So you are suggesting that Jewish people cannot coexist with
>others… Could you say why?
Jews can coexist with others, but there will always be places and people who refuse to see Jews as part of the collective. Jews are widely accepted in the Western World today, but Arab Jews don’t always have it so easy. There was a time the opposite was correct, and that time can arrive again. Who knows? Antisemitism is not a Jewish problem, its not the Jews’ fault, much as white supremacy is not the black man’s fault.
>They didn’t distinguish between slavic people either… I wouldn’t
>base my plans for the future on anything to do with the way the
>Nazis thought about anything
Slavs weren’t on the point of being wiped out. That is why Israel is so important to world Jewry. It is the refuge should anything catastophic happen for any reason. Millions would have been saved had Israel existed during World War II. In 1990 Israel airlifted thousand of Ethiopian Jews out of Addis-Abbaba as Tigrin and Eritrean forces were converging on it. Would anyone else have saved them?
>Sounds a little like aparthied to me… don’t want to have a
>government with nonjews in it, so I assume all of the Arab labour
>that is currently used in Israel would be replaced by Jewish
>labour… or is it a case of they can work and maybe live there but
>they can have no say in anything.
Where did I say that ?!?!? You’re coming to your own misguided conclusions here. What I want is a democratic, equal right Israel which is home to Jews and non-Jews alike, much the same as I wish Jewish right respected abroad. But I do also want Israel that can be the homeland Jews never had and which they can always count on for support, no matter how dark the times are. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, yes, but not necessarily theirs exclusive.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
By: Arabella-Cox - 24th June 2002 at 13:25
RE: This is really disgusting …
“Jews and Palestinians are two ethnic groups,… “
Even assuming this is true… which it isn’t (I could convert to become a jew… I can’t convert to become a black person or an asian person) what you are suggesting is that two different ethnic groups are incapable of living together.
It is sad that you think that.
I assume when you say that Jews and Palestinians are seperate ethnic groups you mean that they have different cultures.
This is not the same thing.
Ethnically I am european, culturally I am a New Zealander and quite different from most Europeans which despite EU and single currency ideas is still made up of many different cultures.
Many in Northern Ireland probably think the same as you and believe catholics and protestants could never get along either… the strange thing is that they get along when they leave. Religion is not an issue for them here in NZ.
Now I am not suggesting NZ is a trouble free paradise where everyone kisses and makes up no matter what but jewish groups and palestinian groups manage to coexist in peace here.
Our laws are basically based on the Christian religion which annoys me but in general church and governement are only mixed by a few minority groups like the “Christian Heritage Party” and other nut cases.
“…one among many that can democratically coexist with all others.”
So you are suggesting that Jewish people cannot coexist with others… Could you say why?
“- the Nazis did not distinguish between Belgian, Polish, Russian, Greek or Tunisian Jews.”
They didn’t distinguish between slavic people either… I wouldn’t base my plans for the future on anything to do with the way the Nazis thought about anything.
” – it would just turn into another Arab state where the Jews are once again at the mercy of their masters.”
Sounds a little like aparthied to me… don’t want to have a government with nonjews in it, so I assume all of the Arab labour that is currently used in Israel would be replaced by Jewish labour… or is it a case of they can work and maybe live there but they can have no say in anything.
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June 22, 2002 at 5:55 pm