Time Team – Series 7 Episode 3.

Having looked up the book Andy suggests, I think that’s the one – thank you. Apologies for keeping dragging your name up, Andy, but I’m afraid you are known for this topic!

Adrian

I can remember carrying a coffin which seemed very heavy. When we were discussing this afterwards we were told that it had contained mostly sand.

This pilot was known to have been recovered and buried in the local churchyard under CWGC headstone.

The site was certainly not a ‘known’ war grave although it was a crash site known to involve a fatality.

Prior to excavation it wasn’t clear what the extent of buried wreckage might be and it could have been simply an engine or propeller hub, with the bulk of wreckage and the unfortunate pilot having been retrieved in 1940. However, the possibility that remains may be extant was certainly considered in the planning process. The family were also aware, very much involved and very much supportive.

I wasn’t privy to any specific arrangements, save to say that a senior RAF Officer from the British Embassy, Paris, was present, CWGC were involved (possibly present, but I cannot now recall) and only qualified professionals dealt with the issue once it became apparent that remains were present. Mark12 may be able to throw more light than I. Like me, he was present as a guest/participant but not involved as part of the organising team per se.

I suspect the book in question is ‘Missing Believed killed’ by Stuart Hadaway, Pen & Sword

Hope that helps.

Will do. Andy might know, but I can only see his posts going back so far, and I can’t see it in there… if it was him who posted it!

Adrian

Ok, be interesting to know what it’s called Adrian, keep us posted if you find out/remember.

I’m almost certain it wasn’t – it covers crash recovery at the time, rather than more modern efforts.

Adrian

Someone has actually written a book on the activities of the “bucket squads”, which has been referred to on this forum relatively recently… but can I recall what it was called? No!

I believe a Mr Saunders, sometimes of this parish, refers to the aircraft’s remains in his book on P9374.

Adrian

Was it called ” Spitfire Hunters “, by any chance? ( Not Andy Saunder’s book )

So was this site a ‘known’ war grave containing the remains of the unfortunate pilot, prior to excavation?

I would say that it wasn’t a known war grave but a known crash site. The pilot had a grave, a burial had taken place so it could be presumed his body had been recovered. It wasn’t known or made public just how much had been buried at the time. I have researched crash sites and been granted a licence to dig and helped others to do so. You do as much as you can in the research including burial records, finding the existing grave, witness statements etc. to show there are no remains but short of digging up the known grave in the cemetery you can never be sure of what will be found. When you are granted a licence you are given information concerning dealing with relatives, which is basically don’t have them around!
Orion’s statement in post 3 has been proven to be true many times. I have been told that the grave of a certain well known bomber pilot contains little more than a foot but unless we dig him up we won’t know.

Agreed – if you read any of Andy’s “Finding the…” books, it’s obvious that very odd bits may remain at the surface in these cases – there’s one case where an ID was confirmed by a tab in a sock, I think, but the pilot concerned was never recovered. I’ll let you imagine the processes by which such things might escape the cockpit, if you don’t mind.

I don’t think there’s actually any legal standard, at least in the UK, but IIRC most coroners assume that average birth weight (about 7lb) of remains is enough to constitute a body, especially if there’s evidence of important bits such as head, spine, pelvis in there – so 7lbs of leg on its own might not constitute a body, but if you had 7lbs of leg and a kidney… I don’t know what the requirement is in France (or was in 1940) but presumably someone locally had enough remains to be worth burying, and something that provided an ID as well.

It’s not necessarily that simple – there’s at least one case in the UK where it’s likely that a pilot has two separate graves, and various cases where remains were apparently recovered at the scene but there is no record of a burial etc. The latter isn’t restricted to “the enemy” either, as I’m sure I’ve read accounts of that happening in the case of JFK’s brother in Suffolk – so there’s plenty of room for a body being in more than one place! Given the circumstances I don’t think there’s any way of knowing what happened that day in France in 1940 that could have led to Time Team being able to say one way or another what they would find beforehand, but with a gravestone standing in the churchyard it’s surely hard to describe the aircraft as a grave before you excavate and find otherwise?

Adrian

Also, I presume that considering the circumstances of the impact and the depth that the wreckage (especially the cockpit) penetrated the ground, no part of the pilots remains could’ve been recovered for burial in 1940?

I’d say that’s a very big presumption. The grave may only contain fragmentary remains, which could have been thrown clear on impact. I’ll not go into details, but imagine the damage the force of a high speed impact would do to the human body. I have read of circumstances where a coffin only contains a few extremities.

So was this site a ‘known’ war grave containing the remains of the unfortunate pilot, prior to excavation?
Also, I presume that considering the circumstances of the impact and the depth that the wreckage (especially the cockpit) penetrated the ground, no part of the pilots remains could’ve been recovered for burial in 1940?

TT were certainly very sensitive to this issue and I am sure the situation was handled correctly and with due respect – in fact when discussing the details for our Warton A-26 project, their criteria was quite definite, in that they wanted to avoid any possibility of “accidental” discovery of human remains on future aircraft themed excavations.

The process of the recovery of P9373 (and the filming) was halted when remains were uncovered and they were carefully dealt with. These remains were later re-interred in the grave of Paul Klipsch in the local churchyard which clearly only contained partial remains.

Hope that helps?

The wreck of P9373 currently resides at Duxford and is/was a pending project with Mark One Partners although probably unlikely to see fruition in the immediately foreseeable future.

I think you meant to say in, not on, that would upset the relatives.

Err … yes, sorry!

Regards

Someone has actually written a book on the activities of the “bucket squads”, which has been referred to on this forum relatively recently… but can I recall what it was called? No!

I believe a Mr Saunders, sometimes of this parish, refers to the aircraft’s remains in his book on P9374.

Adrian

Am I correct in thinking this aircraft is being offered as an airworthy project?

I think you meant to say in, not on, that would upset the relatives.

There might not be an awful lot of human remains in the coffin. It wasn’t unknown for the RAF to place a large piece of concrete on a coffin to simulate the weight of a badly disintegrated body or perhaps no body at all. A service was held, the grieving relatives were comforted and no-one would be the wiser.

Regards

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