Timewatch – Sat 21 March – 8pm

Sorry to bump this up again….

However, I understand that over on the Great War Forum there will be live “chat” at 8pm this evening involving a number of those involved in making the programme.

Not sure if I am allowed to mention another forum?

Apologies if not and I am sure a Mod will deal with this post if that is indeed the case.

Why..thank you kind sir.

The cheque is in the post!!

My wife and I were spellbound. Andy – delighted to see you feature. You’re worth more than you realise:)

Anybody can use the research / archive facility at Hendon, just phone to make an appointment; thankfully the pseudo academic snobbery that predominates this forum, does not apply there, and the staff are very helpfull.

At least there are a few of us with crayons at the ready !!

Anybody can use the research / archive facility at Hendon, just phone to make an appointment; thankfully the pseudo academic snobbery that predominates this forum, does not apply there, and the staff are very helpfull.

Thanks for that Stuart,I’ll check them out.

[QUOTE=

Someone mentioned Alexandra Churchill, its very refreshing to see a young aviation historian perpetuating the memory of the World War pilots.

And such an atractrive one too!!:D

No one ever says the same about me! :p

[QUOTE=

Someone mentioned Alexandra Churchill, its very refreshing to see a young aviation historian perpetuating the memory of the World War pilots.

And such an atractrive one too!!:D

Its interesting what you say there, when I was growing up, I was solely interested in modern military aircraft, especially the USAF.
When many of the USAFE bases closed and there were fewer airshows, I branched out as it were.
Now I love WWI aviation, WWII aviation especially the BoB and the activities of the USAAF’s 8th Air Force, Vietnam…….the list goes on.
The only area of aviation holding zilch interest is the airliner world.

Someone mentioned Alexandra Churchill, its very refreshing to see a young aviation historian perpetuating the memory of the World War pilots.

It was fascinating to see the original notes for Flying Fury, can anyone book an appointment with ‘DoRIS’ at Hendon, or do you have to be an historian researching for a book to view the archives?

Anybody can use the research / archive facility at Hendon, just phone to make an appointment; thankfully the pseudo academic snobbery that predominates this forum, does not apply there, and the staff are very helpfull.

I hope you guys won’t mind me mentioning this. Last week I went to a preview of a new documentary made for BBC4. Now, it’s not aviation, it’s motor racing, but I thought I would give you a brief ‘heads-up’ on it, as the WWI programme was so well made, this programme is too. It’s subject is Formula 1 World Champion Jim Clark. Titled ‘Jim Clark-The Quiet Champion’, it runs for an hour and will probably transmit on BBC4 on Easter Monday evening, with a possible repeat on BBC2 later in the year. It’s very well made, and indeed it was produced by Mark Stewart Productions (Mark is the son of Jackie Stewart).
OK advert over, I do hope the mods will be OK with me posting this here.
All the best!

BSG-75 I’m a tad late as I’ve only just seen it. I thought it was excellent, while (obviously) an aviation enthusiast, WW1 era is outside of my main area, in fact I don’t think I own a WW1 book, model etc

Its interesting what you say there, when I was growing up, I was solely interested in modern military aircraft, especially the USAF.
When many of the USAFE bases closed and there were fewer airshows, I branched out as it were.
Now I love WWI aviation, WWII aviation especially the BoB and the activities of the USAAF’s 8th Air Force, Vietnam…….the list goes on.
The only area of aviation holding zilch interest is the airliner world.

Someone mentioned Alexandra Churchill, its very refreshing to see a young aviation historian perpetuating the memory of the World War pilots.

It was fascinating to see the original notes for Flying Fury, can anyone book an appointment with ‘DoRIS’ at Hendon, or do you have to be an historian researching for a book to view the archives?

DNA not possible for lots of reasons and, in any case, CWGC would not allow it.

🙂 For anyone wishing to see it 🙂
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jj523/Timewatch_2008_2009_WWI_Aces_Falling better if you click the pop up button next to the full screen button as you can pause it if you want to,the main page kept restarting from beginning if you paused it.:)
Can a DNA test be done on the unknown airman or is that unethical?

very good

I’m a tad late as I’ve only just seen it. I thought it was excellent, while (obviously) an aviation enthusiast, WW1 era is outside of my main area, in fact I don’t think I own a WW1 book, model etc. I thought it was well researched, stayed away from any sensationalism at all and told a sad story, with a twist with regard to the missing grave.

No issues with the CGI, only meant to be a representation, the programme is aimed also at a wider audience, I’ll try and read on a little more.

I say well done BBC…… pyramids next week, I’ll stay tuned, last weeks was very good as well.

But to answer your question – yes the RFC did have NCO pilots and I think it would be fair to say that most countries did…

Thanks for that. I’ve been doing a bit of Googling too and it seems that James McCudden was a sergeant pilot with 29 Squadron, also, according to Wikipedia:

“Using his knowledge as a mechanic, he effectively supercharged his aircraft to give it an additional 4,000ft altitude ceiling.”

While he may have used his mechanical knowledge to good effect, I doubt very much that he supercharged any of his aircraft!

Very good programme. Mannock is still remembered at Wellingborough . There is a picture of Mannock on the entrance to the public library. The local No. 378 ATC Squadron is called Mannock,and his house where he lived in Mill Road ,I believe has a Heritage plaque. Andy, can you comment on the latest from official sources to prove the new resting place for Mannock ?

something in the back of my mind about a VC prompted a bit of googling.

Flight Sergeant Thomas Mottershead VC DCM
Was awarded the VC posthumously for managing to land his burning FE2D thereby saving his observer (jan 1917)! Unfortunately TM was pinned by the engine and died a few days later.

link to painting of him

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO26398&SE=1921&RN=12&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=allResults&EF=&DF=allDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=190582&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

regards baz

Were there NCO aircrew (or even pilots) flying with the RFC during the First World War and would officer status initially only be a question of ‘class’? I seem to remember seeing a photograph of James McCudden wearing sergeant’s stripes; was this when he was a mechanic or when flying as an observer?

Yes there were ‘erk’ pilots… in ‘Flight Path’ Frank T Courtney describes being given his RFC wings whilst only being an AM2 (air mechanic 2nd class) and also despite being a spectacle wearer and not having any military flying training (he was a prewar civil pilot).There was I think one other ‘erk’ pilot but as FTC gleefully says in the book ”but he was an AM1”.
But to answer your question – yes the RFC did have NCO pilots and I think it would be fair to say that most countries did,FTC eventually went to france as a sgt pilot but later was commissioned.

cheers baz

Were there NCO aircrew (or even pilots) flying with the RFC during the First World War and would officer status initially only be a question of ‘class’? I seem to remember seeing a photograph of James McCudden wearing sergeant’s stripes; was this when he was a mechanic or when flying as an observer?

Thanks for that,

Have now ordered the book from the library.;)

I thought it was a reasonable program. There wasn’t much new information there, but it was about as much detail as you could get in a mainstream program.

I’m curious as to what Alexandra Churchill’s interest is in McCudden, he was clearly her interest. Is she writing a book about him? I think he is due another biography.

I’d be interested to hear if anyone has more details about the Mannock in Laventie theory, I’ve googled it and it looks like it is not universally agreed. Years ago there was a video called “Where they flew and where they fell” that contained a longer examination of the facts that are known, but IIRC, there were other suggested candidates for the grave.

There was a full examination of the case in a recent edition of Aeroplane Monthly. And it is also in the recent Grub Street book “Mannock VC”. Sorry about the plug…but the subject was raised!

No, the case for Laventie is not universally agreed and the “other cadidates” (Pell and Hollick) are examined in the book. Whilst they came down in the general area there is no evidence to tie them to this specific location – whilst there is documentary evidence that places Mannock down in about the right place. It is a complex case, and one that is impossible to summarise here. The sources mentioned are worth a look for anyone interested, but even since both were published certain other information has also come to light. The TV documentary was only able to scratch the surface of that specific area which could easily fill one whole programme.

The answer may yet lie in the recently “discovered” Red Cross Records in Geneva.