Titanic – 100th

Conspiracy theory = Sell Books…
I love a good conspiracy theory myself but I actually believe very few of them 🙂

rgds baz

I think a lot of the recent conspiracy theories regarding the Titanic / Olympic swap stem from the 1998 book ‘Titanic: the Ship that Never Sank’ by Robin Gardiner; a book that introduces all manner of highly questionable elements into the swap theory including the suggestion that Titanic (really Olympic) didn’t hit an iceberg at all but actually rammed a mystery ship sent to rescue the passengers.

Another source of confusion is the frequent misidentification of the ships in photographs; it is very seductive to think that we’ve uncovered some great ancient secret by spotting some anomaly in the riveting or portholes in a photograph of Titanic or Olympic but often the truth is more mundane – it is a wrongly captioned photograph, not a vast conspiracy.

It’s very possible. Certainly makes sense to me.

I think the entire swap theory comes from the act of the Olympic being put in the same Dry-Dock an incomplete Titanic was in, the latter having to be towed out of said dock and presumably stored someplace.

To the layman who was just observing goings on without knowledge of what they were witnessing, it might well have looked suspicious and could have been misunderstood as some sort of swap. This false observation entered the grape vine and was brought up right after the Titanic sank and has refused to go away ever since.

I think you’ve very much hit the nail on the head there. I don’t believe they were swapped, secretly or otherwise. My reference to events that happened referred to work on completing Titanic being postponed to repair the damage to Olympic. Titanic was originally scheduled to sail from Southampton in March 1912, but Olympic’s collision delayed this. As you say, the work to swap the ships to the point where not only Olympic looked like Titanic, but also Titanic looked like Olympic would have been impossible in the timescale, never mind actually doing so without arousing suspicion.

The theory would appear to ignore the fact that White Star obviously weren’t as concerned about Titanic being completed in time for her maiden voyage as is the basis of the theory. In fact, they postponed her sailing to allow for the repair of Olympic – this would suggest to me that the emphasis was actually on getting Olympic back in service rather than Titanic. There is also the fact that to swap the ships to pass each off as the other would involve astronomical cost that would serve absolutely no conceivable purpose – it would be like committing financial suicide for a company which had already invested considerable sums in the creation of the Olympic class steamers.

That’s why I agree with you that the swa.p could not have happened

The swap theory…..although this did actually happen, it merely delayed Titanic’s maiden voyage by about one month.

So are you saying that the identities of Titanic and Olympic were swapped?

I understand that ships, even ocean liners, often change their names; and I agree that it would have been possible to ‘swap’ the names of Titanic and Olympic for some legitimate commercial reason…

…but the moment it becomes a secret swap the idea becomes ludicrous!

The conspiracy theorist will have you believe that Titanic and Olympic were ‘virtually identical’ but that is a very misleading phrase; although they were very similar there are some rather obvious differences that couldn’t just be changed by a few people in the middle of the night. Any realistic attempt to pass Olympic off as Titanic and vice versa would have involved hundreds of skilled shipyard workers, riveters, carpenters, and so on, working for weeks on end; the fact that this work wasn’t known and reported at the time can only mean one thing – it didn’t happen.

Any suggestion that the two ships could have their identities changed, and to a degree that even the crews that operated them wouldn’t notice, ignores the reality of the work involved plus it relies on a massive conspiracy involving not only those at the very top of the White Star Line and Harland & Wolff but also the perfect silence of the hundreds of workers necessary to pass-off such a secret swap. That would be virtually impossible in normal circumstances but to expect such a conspiracy to hold-water under the scrutiny following the most famous maritime disaster in history is beyond belief.

I like to keep an open mind on these things but could someone explain in simple terms what would have been the point of doing it if it did happen!

The swap theory suggests that after Olympic was damaged by her collision with Hawke, a financially strained White Star Line decided that it would be quicker and cheaper to repair Olympic than it would have been to complete Titanic, but it should be noted by anyone passing by (excuse the pun) that although this did actually happen, it merely delayed Titanic’s maiden voyage by about one month. There would be no conceivable gain in swapping the two ships for the sake of one month.

That said, it is not uncommon for the names of vessels to be changed (I recently changed the name of my boat), but what is, in my honest opinion, the key fact in all of this is that whether or not she is the original Titanic is immaterial – she bore the name Titanic on that voyage and still bears the name Titanic some 100 years later. I think that whatever her true identity, she is the only Titanic we’ve ever known. She’s the Titanic that fascinates and grips us and will hopefully continue to do so for many years to come.

Lightoller was second officer, Murdoch was first officer. Both were demoted with the transferring aboard of Chief Officer Wilde 🙂

One of the biggest problems with the switch theory is that it ignores the biggest reason why it could not have happened ;)…
That reason is most peoples complete inability to keep their mouths shut :)…are we really expected to believe that hundreds if not thousands of dockyard workers etc would not talk about it ?????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

from one of the many websites…

Or just sold your story to the highest bidder LOL

rgds baz

I could not have put this any better had I tried. With wages the way they were back then and the scale of such a story should it have been true, any whistle blower would have been made quite well off had they sold the story. I don’t imagine that Irish shipbuilders could have been pressured into keeping quiet or resist the temptation to make a substantial sum to feed their families.

That said, there’s also every possibility that many would have, as is the case today, feared for their livelihoods should they tell all – not such an issue today but back then there wasn’t a benefit system to fall back on.

Plus, with the size of the ships, which could be seen for miles, someone else would likely have seen a potential switch in progress. Whichever ship went down however, it was undoubtedly the single most important disaster in maritime history. Without it, we would not have the ice patrols, lifeboats for full capacity, 24 hour radio watches, lifeboat drills within 24 hours (I still think that this should be done before sailing – perhaps they could take a leaf out of aviation’s book – perhaps the Concordia inquiry might recommend this) and should this not have happened, with ships becoming constantly larger, maybe the disaster that taught us those lessons might have cost many more lives.

It is tragic that they died, but at least it wasn’t in vain and their memory lives on, as do the lessons that they taught us.

Let’s not forget Violet Jessop…

Yes, Violet Jessop served on both Titanic and Olympic as did many, many other members of Titanic’s crew; I’m certain she would be able to tell the ships apart as all the ships, apparently, had their own character.

I’ve read her book (or rather the book of her memoires); it is rather good but the most interesting part concerns her early life before she went to sea. It is all too easy to judge those involved in the Titanic tragedy from the caricatures we see in films but these people led lives far harder than most of us can even imagine.

First Officer Lightoller, for example, went to sea when he was thirteen, survived one shipwreck, had sat seaman’s examinations (in India), had survived malaria in West Africa and a smallpox epidemic (and a revolution) in South America, had survived a cargo of coal catching-fire on a sailing-ship, had left the sea for gold prospecting in the Klondike Gold Rush, had been a cowboy in Canada, and had worked his way home (penniless) as a cattle-wrangler on a cattle-ship…..all by the time he was twenty-five!

Not forgetting, of course, that he took his own yacht to Dunkirk in 1940 and rescued about one-hundred-and-twenty men of the BEF from the beaches with only his own son and an eighteen-year-old Sea Scout for crew…..he was sixty-six at the time!

Other notable crew who had served on the Olympic were, of course, Captain Smith and Chief Officer Wilde, who both died…

…are the ‘Titanic/Olympic Swap’ theorists really suggesting that every crewmember that had served on Titanic or Olympic, or both ships, would fail to spot that they had been switched…

…or were they all ‘in on it’? :rolleyes:

Let’s not forget Violet Jessop…. She served on the Olympic when it was involved in the collision but made it to port, after repairs she carried on serving on it before transferring to the Titanic, ordered into a lifeboat to show they were safe a baby was thrust into her hands, after her service on Titanic she trained as a nurse and during the war was On the Brittanic that hit a mine and she once again a survivor as another ship sank from under her. Later She rejoined the Olympic…

So she survived 2 sinkings and one collision on all 3 of the series.

http://expertscolumn.com/content/violet-jessop-woman-board-olympic-titanic-and-britannic

I shot a Troll, that was passingby about an hour ago,with a 50cal,:D now, I wonder if……………………………………………………..Jim.
Lincoln .7

I think that “passingby” has indeed passed by. Slightly disappointed to be honest. 🙂

One of the biggest problems with the switch theory is that it ignores the biggest reason why it could not have happened ;)…
That reason is most peoples complete inability to keep their mouths shut :)…are we really expected to believe that hundreds if not thousands of dockyard workers etc would not talk about it ?????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
rgds baz

Can our new friend “pasingby” address this simple point, please?

I think we’re wasting our time CD.
I was going to write a long post about how and why he is wrong but I feel it would have been a waste of time.
Perhaps his user name is a clue as to how we should treat him; if we wait a little while he’ll be gone……

A,P. Methinks there is a Troll about?.:eek:
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I think White Star had a cunning plan , quite possibly involving a turnip !

RMS Olympic collided with HMS Hawke on Wednesday 20th September 1911 near the Isle-of-Wight. The collision took place while the Olympic was doing about eleven knots and damage was done to the stern starboard quarter of the liner; two major watertight compartments were flooded but Olympic made it back to Southampton unassisted.

After undergoing temporary repairs Olympic returned, under her own steam, to Belfast where she arrived on 5th October 1911. Olympic was immediately placed in the Thompson (dry) Dock from which the incomplete Titanic had been removed. Apparently the repairs took just six weeks and during these Titanic’s starboard propeller shaft (and propeller?) were used to repair Olympic.

RMS Olympic returned to commercial service on 29th November 1911 operation a three-week turnaround with a seven-day voyage from Southampton to Cherbourg, Queenstown and New York (three and half days stop-over) followed by a seven-day return voyage to Plymouth, Cherbourg and home to Southampton (for another three and half days stop-over).

I don’t have any information on how many Atlantic crossings Olympic made after that (but surely if she hadn’t made any it would have been widely reported at the time) however on 24th February 1912 Olympic lost a propeller blade (which one?) after running over some uncharted obstruction on the Grand Banks off the Newfoundland coast. At the time Olympic was heading east across the Atlantic so she must have made it to New York at least once more before this accident.

Does this sound like Olympic was ‘a virtual write-off’?

Or is the conspiracy theory that she had already been swapped with the incomplete Titanic before 29th November 1911?

One other interesting fact in examining the ‘Titanic/Olympic Swap’ conspiracy theory is that following the Titanic disaster the Olympic (or actually the Titanic according to the theorists) was taken out of service after the summer of 1912 and taken in hand for major modification.

The modifications to Olympic were intended to prevent a repeat of the Titanic tragedy and involved removing all of the ship’s twenty-nine boilers and her four funnels. The modifications also included extending the double-bottom upwards along the hull until it was above the waterline and also increasing the height of the watertight bulkheads. Apparently the work cost $1,215,000 plus, of course, the loss of revenue for the ship until she returned to service on 2nd April 1913.

Does that sound like a good return for a shipping line operating an elaborate insurance scam?

Which bunker was it? If it was an empty or half empty bunker then when the ship went down and the boiler fire doors split open then an explosion of coal dust could have happened…

There is also the minor matter of the Titanic crashing into the seabed after sinking; the ‘bursting out’ plates are also in an area of the hull that was severely damaged in the impact with the seabed. Estimates vary but Titanic probably hit the seabed moving forward at about thirty miles-per-hour; the front of the hull is badly, badly bent and there is no justification for saying that any ‘burst out’ plates happened before the hull hit the seabed.

I think we’re wasting our time…

Yes, I agree, we’re almost certainly wasting our time but I never want to leave these conspiracy theorists unanswered because to do so gives weight to their theories. Possibly he spends his time joining forum after forum, spreading his theory all over the internet, and most probably few can be bothered to really examine his claims and even fewer to check any of his ‘facts’ which is a shame…

…because I’m sure they don’t really stack-up as well as he claims!

But, hey, through a combination of general paranoia and laziness these conspiracy theories blossom into fact!

But pictures from the explorations suggest that there had been an explosion in one of the coal bunkers, as that particular part of the hull is not caving in, but bursting out.

This old Norfolk boy is a bit dim on technical bits and pieces. But as the Titanic was at full steam ahead, so the boilers were at full pressure.
Surely this pressure had to escape somewhere?

Coal can be a real problem when stored in bulk.
http://www.hss.energy.gov/publications/esh_bulletins/BULL0094.html

Which bunker was it?
If it was an empty or half empty bunker then when the ship went down and the boiler fire doors split open then an explosion of coal dust could have happened.

It is known that bunker no 6 was already on fire.

A Lesson Learned from the Titanic

Deep-seated coal fires are not a new problem. J. Dilley, survivor of the
sinking of the TITANIC, reported to following:

The TITANIC sailed from Southhampton on Wednesday, April 10, 1912,
at noon. I was assigned to the TITANIC from the OCEANIC, where I
served as a fireman. From the day we sailed the TITANIC was on
fire, and my sole duty, together with eleven other men, had been to
fight that fire. We had made no headway against it.

The fire started in bunker No. 6. There were hundreds of tons of
coal stored there. The coal on top of the bunker was wet, as all
the coal should have been, but down at the bottom of the bunker, the
coal had been permitted to get dry.

Two men from each watch of stokers were told off, sir, to fight that
fire. The stokers, you know, sir, work four hours at a time, so
twelve of us was fighting flames from the day we put out of
Southhampton until we hit the iceberg.

No sir, we didn’t get that fire out, and among the stokers there was
talk, sir, that we’d have to empty the big coal bunkers after we’d
put our passengers off in New York and then call on the fireboats
there to help us put out the fire. But we didn’t need such help.
It was right under bunker No. 6 that the iceberg tore the biggest
hole in the TITANIC, and the floor of water that came through, sir,
put out the fire that our tons and tons of water had not been able
to get rid of.