To commercial pilots, do you get to choose?

Originally posted by EGNM
Jeanski, when you say crews could start on the ARJ how did this work? As far as i knew DAT were a seperate company entirely to Sabena and hence crews would be hired seperatly? I’m just curious as to how close there two companies actually were and if DAT were so close to SABENA howcome they didn’t get dragged down into the same financial ruin that SABENA did? Were they a subsidery company, or as Schriner did, operate under the SABENA banner (DHC-8s of Schriner operated into many UK airfields under the SABENA banner).

They were some sort of subsidairy company Like you have KLM Cityhopper, but focused on routes up to 2.5 hours of flying. Sabena started them with two or three BAE 146’s and then ARJ85/100. If Fokker weren’t in trouble, it could have been F70/100’s. A few days after the bankruptcy of Sabena, DAT flew again, later renamed SN Brussels Airlines. Sabena took care of the crews and all the aircraft. Crews were also trained in the Sabena Flight Academy.
I don’t know that much about it either. I’d want to, but it’s difficult to find information about it. I might read another of the many Sabena Bankruptcy books. I’ll read the one with many numbers in it again.

I always wanted to show you all this nostalgic poster.

Originally posted by EGNM
Jeanski, when you say crews could start on the ARJ how did this work? As far as i knew DAT were a seperate company entirely to Sabena and hence crews would be hired seperatly? I’m just curious as to how close there two companies actually were and if DAT were so close to SABENA howcome they didn’t get dragged down into the same financial ruin that SABENA did? Were they a subsidery company, or as Schriner did, operate under the SABENA banner (DHC-8s of Schriner operated into many UK airfields under the SABENA banner).

Sabena operated a couple of ARJ’s themselves, although most of the fleet was operated on their behalf by dat.

In Cathay Pacific you usually go on to the aircraft which needs the pilots. I was lucky and got a choice between the B747-400 or the A340.

If your interested, here’s a US perspective:

Once you’re hired at a company you’re obviously the most junior pilot at the company. What fleet type you will be trained to fly depends on what has openings. If there are only openings for 737 First Officers then that is what you get. If there are numerous openings in several different fleets then those are assigned based on seniority to the new hires. The most senior person in a new hire class (the oldest pilot) gets to pick first and they go down the list until the most junior person gets whatever is left.

Another factor is base openings. A pilot doesn’t bid for just 737 First Officer, they bid for LAX 737 First Officer. Open slots at a company are base and fleet specific. If you want to fly the 757 then you will bid for what ever base has an opening. If you want to be based in LAX then you bid for what ever fleet type has an opening in that base.

So for a class of 30 new hires they will be given a list of openings that would look something like this:

5 IAH 737 FO
2 EWR 737 FO
10 CLE 737 FO
13 CLE MD80 FO

Everyone in that class would put their bid which would rank those 4 options from their first to last choice. The most senior pilot in the class would get to choose first, the next pilot gets to choose from what is left after that first pilot chooses and so on down the list.

Then about every 6 months the company runs another bid that would show any new openings throughout the company. Everything from EWR 777 Captain to CLE 737 FO. Then every pilot can bid for whatever he wants. He might not get it as it’s assigned in seniority order.

There are no requirements to go from right seat to left seat or from A320 to 777. If your seniority can hold the position then you will be trained to fly it. We had pilots go from Beech 1900D FO to ERJ Captain.

Getting hired is another whole issue. To get on with an operator who flies turboprops takes about 1500 hours total, 200 multiengine. Small jet operators (CRJ and ERJ) are hiring pilots with about 3000 hours total time and 1000 multi. Large jet operators (737 to 777) if they are hiring at all are looking at pilots with about 8000-10000 hours total time. The market is flooded with furloughed pilots right now which is one reason why the competative minimums are so high.

Jeanski, when you say crews could start on the ARJ how did this work? As far as i knew DAT were a seperate company entirely to Sabena and hence crews would be hired seperatly? I’m just curious as to how close there two companies actually were and if DAT were so close to SABENA howcome they didn’t get dragged down into the same financial ruin that SABENA did? Were they a subsidery company, or as Schriner did, operate under the SABENA banner (DHC-8s of Schriner operated into many UK airfields under the SABENA banner).

Good question Minidoh. In the UK and Europe it depends on the airline and their needs.

I joined Aurigny when they first got the Saab 340. I hadn’t applied to them until I heard they were getting the Saabs because I wasn’t prepared to move overseas to fly a Shorts 360 and definitely wanted to aim higher than the piston engined single crew Trislander. I was interviewed specifically for one of the 6 available FO positions on the Saab. There were 2 girls interviewed who didn’t make the Saab cut but were good enough to be offered positions on the Shorts 360. I guess I could have asked for the Shorts or the Trislander (as there was always vacancies on that fleet) but I would have been mad to chose those types over the Saab. As it happens I wouldn’t have been allowed to go onto the Trislander at the time because they needed 2000 hours total and 500 hours multi-engine for insurance purposes which I didn’t have then.

When I was told that I had been successful with the JMC interview I was asked to have a think about whether I wanted to fly the B757 or A320 and give them a call the next day with my decision. I chose the A320 because it at the time the only UK 757 operators were the main charter airlines and BA whereas there were many A320 operators doing more varied work. If JMC went bust there was much more likelihood of me getting work with a bus rating than a 757 rating. Also, if I wanted to go back to Virgin it would only require a 1 week conversion to fly the A340 whereas the 757 would give me no credit for any other Virgin type. However when I phoned back the next day they said there were now only 757 courses available but I could hold on if I wanted. If I had decided to wait for an A320 course I would have still been waiting 3 1/2 years later!

Now, waiting for Virgin, I am led to believe that their preference is to keep existing Boeing pilots on Virgins Boeing type and existing Airbus pilots on Virgins Airbus types. This is only a general guideline and if there are only the other type available when your time comes up you grab it with open arms. As you get further into your career the type of aircraft you fly becomes less important when compared to the lifestyle it will give you.

Hope that helps.

Correction… With Sabena, you had to start as a copilot an ARJ or A320 (20 years old). Next step is Captain on this fleet (28 years old), next is copilot on longhaul (36) and if your around 45 years old (with luck) you can become a captain on the longhaul fleet. Salaries increase with every step, and many pilots retire at the age of 55 because they’re done (enough money earned, no need to continue working). That last thing is of course only with well-paying airlines.
The ages i said where not exactly that age; i think it depends on flying hours and available vancancies.

I’m no pilot, but…
When CHOOSING a training at Sabena Flight Academy, you normaly finish your study and are added to a waiting list. When Sabena went bankrupt, this list was around 55, with only 2 vacancies per month. Most people on that list are now in deep financial trouble, because most licences were only for use on Belgian-registered aircraft. These licences have to be renewed every 6 months, and without sufficient money, it’s hard to do so.
Meanwhile, most of these unemployed pilots moved to other countries to gain a license for the whole of Europe (for the ones that were not in financial trouble). Others just gave up their pilot license and started a new carreer.
Some of the ex-Sabena pilots which were licensed for the A320 found a job with Thomas Cook. Those pilots saw their salary decreasing to 1/3d of what Sabena payd them; so you know a Sabena pilot was a rich pilot.