Today on MSN on Airline Pilots and ATC's salaries

Deano, I have to applaud your honesty, I have wanted to ask you if the job achieved your expectations, but it has been answered now. What about the pilots who will be made redundant from the R.A.F.? Surely they will be selected first for any pilot jobs out there due to hours of flying?

To become a flight engineer will require a minor miracle as there are so few aircraft around that require them. I think that the writer of this artical had not reserched that part of his artical that well! How much does he think navigators and radio operators get?

Rgds Cking

This is Obi Wan speaking – that’s how far back….

The CAA paid for you to fly? How long ago was this?

Hi EGTC
This is Obi Wan speaking :D, that’s how far back it was. It wasn’t the CAA it was the Civil Aviation Department/Ministry in a Commonwealth Country. It was my childhood ambition to be a pilot, and then as I got older I wanted to also be good at Avionics and so careers guidance at college said why not mix the two as knowing to fly would help in a lot of Avionics study. My parents bought in to the story but I wasn’t a rich kid just had very devoted parents.
When my father died quite young I ‘arrested’ the heavy expense for CPL and night rating hours my mum would have incurred on his pension and took my first job with the manufacturers of the world’s best flight simulators.

Hand on heart it’s the way it was then. And over here in UK airlines sponsored trainee pilots through their flying training and usually there were jobs for them.

If you believe in aircraft, flying and the betterment of all those things stick at it and you’ll find your niche.;)

Brutally Honest Deano.

People just don’t want to hear these things, it gets in the way of the dream.

I would disagree with you on the cadets are solely to blame. Yes, they do share the blame. It’s a bit chicken or egg came first. If the airlines didn’t offer these schemes, cadets couldn’t pay for the it. If the cadets wouldn’t pay for it, airlines wouldn’t offer it.

Another aspect to flying is a job is that thanks to the larger number of “pilots” joining the ranks at a middle level, there is stagnation for those who are flying regional, or up in the highlands, or air ambulance, etc. These guys can’t get the natural progression that was once available as other people moved up the ladder onto bigger jets. The low-costs don’t want them, because A/ they can’t pay B/ they seem to prefer fresh cadets that they can transform into an employee number C/ [MyOpinion]these people know what flying really is about, and as Deano has hinted at – it’s not a pile of paperwork (thanks EU OPS/EASA/CAA).[/MyOpinion]

In my mind, the best flying is PPL. Any job you will eventually begin to loathe, get one that pays well and spend any excess cash bumbling about our pretty – from the air, at least – country.

I got into the industry at just the right time, at the height of the boom. Flying is all I wanted to do from an early age so I am “living the dream”. Here is another problem, future cadets look at flying aeroplanes as the coveted job that they’ve always wanted, they put the job on a pedestal and will stop at nothing to achieve it (even though 900pa never make it). I keep hearing it time and again on PPRuNe where people give out the advice to potential cadets, and that advice is “if you want it badly enough you’ll get it”. That is complete bo****x. You can want it all you want, but if there’s only 300 jobs for 1200 people then there’s going to be alot of disappointed people. But people don’t listen, they listen to the “if you want it badly enough” brigade and they still plough on with the training regardless of the economic conditions etc (see post above). These people are deluded and brain dead.

Then we move on to the job, when I was a PPL one would look up at airliners and go “wow, I’d love to do that one day”, again putting the job on a pedestal. If you were to jump straight from a PPL to the right hand seat of an airliner it would be a massive deal, but it doesn’t happen that way. Every step along the way progresses you up the ladder on the way to that job, from the CPL, to the IR, then the MCC, then the interview, Type Rating ground school, Type Rating sim sessions, base training, and then line training. It kind of prepares you for it along the way so when you actually get there it isn’t really a big deal any more.

Then we talk about the job itself. Well for me it was a complete culture shock. I thought the job was going to be something totally different to what it was. I thought we’d fly planes, look out the window, go to lovely destinations and then do the same on the way back. How wrong I was. The job is completely different to my expectations and I try to pass this on to potential cadets about putting it on a pedestal. There is so much paperwork to do per flight it is nonsensical, alot of the time you simply don’t get time to look out the window, period. Then you have the added pressures that flying brings. You are constantly being tested, you have to go into the sim every 6 months, you are line checked once a year, you have to do ARTs once a year, tech exams once a year, stay on top of your aircraft knowledge all the time. It is constant, when you have one thing out the way, along comes something else.
Forget weekends off, forget a social life, forget going out with your mates, forget saying yes to your daughters when they say “daddy can you come to my school play next week?” Forget having a constant work pattern. If you arrange something in an evening and you are on earlies you’ll go tech down route and will have to nightstop, or get delayed. If you want a random day off you can only book it 2 months in advance (so forget spur of the moment BBQs etc). You’ll spend your life positioning to other bases sat in aircraft departure lounges. You’ll constantly be worried about your job in bad economic times, you’ll get to sit next to a couple of right knobends who are out to make your working day hell, the list goes on. How many times have you got to fly past the Swiss Alps before they just become “The Swiss Alps”? Twice, that’s it.
The job is not what people expect it to be, and there is always a novelty factor. The difference is how long does your novelty factor last before it wears off? Because it will wear off, it’s just when, not if.

All that said, I still wouldn’t want to do anything else, but if it all came to an end tomorrow would it matter? Naaaa, life goes on.

I’m one of those people that considered flight training.

I looked at the costs, then the job market. Saw that there was no realistic way I could expect a job after spending what was then £75K on flight training and £20K to £25K on typerating.

What did I decide to do? Not even try. It wasn’t worth it in my opinion.
I think I made the right call.

Deano, it’s refreshing to see someone post that they refused a job on the conditions, not because of the aircraft type.
I’ve seen a lot of arrogant pilots lately posting how they refused based on type alone.

Deano, I agree with everything you have said and they are the reasons why I am starting to lose my excitement and ambition to become an airline pilot. Each time i’ve gone into my current flying school over the past 3yrs (i’ve been flying since the end of 2003 though) I dont think i’ve seen the same student twice, which dictates just how many cadets there are still doing their PPL’s, CPL’s etc I see the youngsters come in all bright eyed and bushy tailed and I think ‘I have no idea why you wanna do this’ and then I find myself thinking ‘well, why am I doing this?’ I used to answer this with ‘because its what you’ve wanted since you was 2yrs old’ Nowadays, I really dont seem to be able to answer my own question. After the cadets have been made to pay out so much, some might not even get a job which means they are forever re-validating ratings and licences just to keep their head above water incase that big break comes along, and for alot it doesnt.
This also has a big affect on ones social life. I rarely get to go out as all I have goes on hour building..but guess what? Im unemployed so i’m doing about as much flying as a lead balloon at the moment.

I agree that the cadets are to blame, especially the rich ones. It doesnt matter how much the bar is raised financially, there appears to be young cadets coming in with truck loads of money that they seem to be able to hand over at will. I have no idea where that money comes from, I mean, over £100,000 is an incredible amount to have to throw at training.

I can see why you didnt take the B757 contract! That would of been a bad idea. Its sad to see the pilot profession go that way. I suppose the future for pilots will be abit like being a courier – provide your own transport/insurance/maintenance and work via a contract with the possible prospect of it being extended depending on demand. :rolleyes:

The problems today in the way airlines recruit is born out of a few problems within the industry. Firstly, the recession. Nobody is moving seats, jobs aren’t being created and retiring pilots are not being replaced. This all leads to a stagnant job market, and this leads to airlines being very picky and choosy in the mannerism in which it recruits. There is not one airline in the UK that I can think of that is over crewed, quite the opposite infact. Airlines are running on so few crew that the ones they do have are working up to FTLs at alot of bases.
Now whilst a stagnant job market should lead to a reduction in T&Cs (and it has), it shouldn’t have a big impact (& probably doesn’t). The single most reason for a reduction in T&Cs and wages is all down to cadets. This is where my hatred of ryanair comes from. As soon as the first person ever offered to pay for their type rating came about (a couple of decades ago) airlines and their bean counters latched on to this and started coming up with hair brained schemes on how to “exploit” money out of cadets and thus the era of SSTR & P2F was born.
The reasons why these schemes work is twofold, firstly you have people who will give their right arm to fly aeroplanes, and secondly there’s never been enough jobs created per annum to cater for everyone leaving flight school. This leaves cadets with a few options. Spend money on training, but then can’t find a job, thus sign up for a SSTR or P2F scheme, don’t train in the first place, or waste the money they have spent on training and let their licenses lapse.
Every year approximately 1200 fATPLs (no such license by the way) are issued in the UK by the CAA. In good recruiting times there’s only ever between 250-300 jobs per year. Now my maths is good, but is yours? I make that to be 900 cadets will never get a job, ever. Along comes ryanair, it’s expansion and it’s beloved contract scheme. All of a sudden you have 900 cadets that have a wee light at the end of the tunnel, maybe there is a chance of a job afterall, and so it escalates. They are recruited onto crappy contracts, with low pay and conditions, and most certainly no employment rights at all (because they are self employed basically).
The P2F & contract cadet schemes are now fully charged and alot of airlines are jumping on the bandwagon. Easyjet for instance, is worse than ryanair if you ask me. They offer cadets the “chance” to buy a type rating through CTC and go onto a 6 month flexi contract. Once the 6 months is up they could potentially be out the door with an Airbus type rating and 250hrs on type. As much use as a chocolate teapot.
So why do these schemes exist? Well, we’ve already deciphered that they exist because there are desperate people out there. Who do we blame? Well lets look at that.
We are on the “good” side of the worst recession in living memory. I am no economist but even I can see that we are not out the woods yet. We have 250,000 public sector workers that will be out of a job, that has to hit the economy, there is no way it can’t. We have high unemployment as a whole, we have high inflation being driven by high commodity prices, we have poor high street performance, we have rising costs in the every day cost of living etc etc. We also have a terrible job market for the airline industry. Taking all that into the mix we still have full, yes full flight schools. Even at the start of the recession cadets are being pumped out left, right and centre. What I want to know is, who the hell is advising these people? Who the hell is doing their research for them? Why are they even training knowing there will be no jobs out there? I just don’t get it.
Then what happens is, after they have just spent £100,000 on an integrated course, they then have to spend another £30,000 on a type rating (yes, ryanair charge £30k for a £21k TR). They will never pay that money off in a million years, never ever ever. They face a lifetime of debt, a lifetime of no money and hardship. Hell, they are even sleeping in their cars in the car parks around the airports because they cannot afford accommodation. I don’t get it, no job is worth that, no job, not even flying.
Then we have the other side of the coin. Mr & Mrs Middle Class want their children to sit in a coveted job, and here comes the rich daddy scenario. What I don’t get is that there is a never ending gravy train of people with £130k to spend on flight training. It isn’t even drying up. What I don’t get is where the hell is all the money coming from? It is complete and utter madness.
I have absolutely zero respect for pilots (first officers in particular) who effectively buy their jobs. I hear them in the airways all the time and it makes me cringe. How the hell as a parent can you be proud of, and congratulate your son/daughter on their new “job” if they have bought it? I don’t get that either.
One thing I do get though (wait for it), is that the only people to blame for these schemes existing are the cadets themselves. Nobody else is to blame, not even ryanair and their sh!tty brookfield contracts, but the cadets. If they didn’t pay the money, the schemes would not exist – fact. It’s like on Valentine’s Day, why do your flowers cost you 3 x as much? Because you are prepared to pay it, it is as simple as that.
So until these little parasites of the industry stop paying for everything, the schemes will continue and airlines will be in the driving seat.
I was offered a job last November on the 757 based out of EMA. The deal was, I paid for my type rating (£19k), I took a 70% contract, I didn’t get paid until I got online (2½ months without pay). You can guess what the answer was.

Look at everyone who has recruited lately. BA – Virgin – GSS – Thomas Cook – Monarch – EasyJet – Ryanair etc. They all require a type rating as a pre-requisite. This is all born out of the SSTR debacle that is the cancer of the airline industry. This will be changing in the very near future though, just as airlines realise they cannot run their schedules on depleted crew – watch this space.

Dean

Cabin crew wasn`t the best of pay..but the perks made up for it!!!

The CAA paid for you to fly? How long ago was this?

Flying is great and I enjoy it, but I am wondering if I am enjoying it as much now as I did a few years ago. I am hour building on a PPL. I did formation flying last year, excellent fun, but I dunno, I feel like flying is fun, but the overall politics of it just ruins it overall really. The economy is volatile, the economy coughs and the airlines die, pilots out of work and its always the same circle.. then the airlines up their requirements or just make it harder with rules and regs changing.
So I may carry on with it, I might not though.

You aren’t alone but hang in there EGTC and Threespool

Hi EGTC and Threespool
What you say isn’t different to an extent to when I learnt to fly (CPL). Each flying hour was 45% paid by parent (I was still in college), the balance 55% was paid by the Civil Aviation Authority.

More recently my cousin has been paying his own money to do simulator hours to move type rating. He does have a job as a Senior First Officer.

While I spent more years than I wish to state as a near indispensable Tech in Software Industry albeit I was given mandatory corporate training courses at £1,500 a pop I paid and bought all the extra books and manuals often amounting to a few £1000s a year to keep additionally abreast of rapidly changing technology.

The rich kids syndrome is present all over not just in flying and most universities are filled with these types. They disrupt class, and in some cases have their essays and coursework done by paid third parties, and usually walk into a job post degree at £35,000 starting salary.:rolleyes:

Put all that aside and hang in there as in your cases you love flying (at least I presume that) and that will in the long run make you excellent committed pilots.

Why don’t you consider paying for flying training in the USA – it is I am told still relatively cheaper than in the UK (I stand to be corrected here) and if you can get a pal to put you up you can fairly knock up the hours.

I know a young lady who flew regularly at Elstree who did just that.

Good luck and don’t feel dis heartened.;)

ThreeSpool,
I totally agree with what you’re saying. Im 26 and currently see the amount of 18yr olds who come through my flying school with £60,000 at their disposal leaves me really speechless.
Like you say, the airlines love them because its handed to them on a plate by, as you said, the bank of mum and dad.
I’ve more recently been contemplating applying to join the police as a constable when they next have an intake, instead of continuing to fly.

It will only get worse. What is worse is those undertaking the training funded by the Bank of Parents; who clog up the system of training for other pilots. The ones that can survive on the low paying jobs in the right-hand seat of a shiney 737-800, or A319; thanks to daddy. The airlines love this, they can make money out of it.

Regarding the wages of pilots, the airlines simply have the power nowadays. Airlines no longer offer sponsorship schemes, most trainees (myself included) have to fund the training ourselves, the airlines call the shots and the trainees have to do as they are told basically and get all the ratings and hours required. The airlines can then dictate the pilots wages as they will simply see it that those who want the job bad enough will keep at it regardless because the amount of trainees outweigh the amount of jobs available.
I guess the job isn’t what it used to be really.

…..and you don’t actually need A-Levels to become an ATCO.

Would be interesting to find out where they got that salary from.

No worries but without the flight crew until UAV for civillian use are here …

Absolutely 😉 thanks for clarifying, but without getting the best recruited and retaining flight crew until UAVs for civillian use are approved and proliferate (don’t think in my lifetime for civilian use) all the other salaries will trail behind sadly.

I am the first to say that without the entire support team working god knows what shifts there would be no professional or safe airlines in the world.

So yes the salaries of all aircraft related professions must be reviewed and the best retained in employment.:D

Without my advocating militancy undercutting on the salary market has to stop to up the international standards and make aviation careers worth aspiring to, for young people coming through schools, colleges and universities.:mad:

There, corrected that for you. 😀

Starting salaries!! – some flight crew pay to work or work for peanuts in some LCCs

Starting salaries!! – some flight crew pay to work or work for peanuts in some LCCs

My personal comment was the MSN survey figures are low for the responsibility, skills and training (some at personal expense) and assessment undergone by professional pilots, engineers and ATCs.

Both EGTC and Threespool are spot on in that starting salaries (eh! what’s that in the case of some LCCs?):rolleyes: are a fraction or do not exist.

Professional pilots aren’t cheap ‘bus drivers’ but carry a very great responsibility for many peoples’ lives or for often valuable cargo/freight.

Without my advocating militancy undercutting on the salary market has to stop to up the international standards and make the careers of flight crew worth aspiring to, for young people coming through schools, colleges and universities.:mad:

Yeh, divide those figures by – at least – 4, for starting wages. 🙁

They are definitely not start off wages either.