Tracing WW2 RAF Personnel, Does anyone have the UK Electoral Register on CD?

Whitley’s

Thanks HP57

Elliott hasn’t emailed me for some time, shame there was no Merlin X’s found though.

I should like to get aboard a rebuilt Whitley V. But that seems a huge project and probably some time in the distant future.

Regards

Mark

Did you recover all of the Whitley and engines?

There is a project to rebuild a Whitley in the UK and he is always on the lookout for Whitley parts.

__________________________________________________

Hi Mark,

N1521 exploded in mid-air and the debris fell onto the frozen surface of the lake below. The Germans didn’t bother to clear away the parts and used handgrenades to make holes in the ice into which they shoved everything that was still lying on the lakes surface. When we investigated the site we found masses of small parts from the cockpit among other things as well as a large section of wingundersurface.

Elliott knows all about this as he was present with me during 2002 to re-visit the site and some of the wreckage of N1521 was donated to his project. A lot of wreckage was taken away during the fifties for scrap. We did find an engine-plate from one of the Merlin X-engines but that was all we found from the engines.

Cheers

Cees

Whitley N1521

Thanks for that information about Whitley N1521 at

http://www.a1.nl/nfla/N1521.html

http://www.arg1940-1945.nl/pages/inhoudsopgave-uk.htm
Click for Recovery Page, then click on ‘A.W. Whitley’. Next click on ‘2e EXPEDITIE’ and ‘4e EXPEDITIE’ for photographs. Found It!!

Its strange to think that my grandfather flew in that aircraft during July 1940. Its been underwater, recovered and now its in a museum.

Did you recover all of the Whitley and engines?

There is a project to rebuild a Whitley in the UK and he is always on the lookout for Whitley parts.

Best wishes

Mark (Observer)

Ahum, the chapter on our recovery of Whitley N1521 is in-operative on our site. Check

www.nfla.nl

then go to the recoveriesindex and look for Whitley N1521.

Cees

Whitley N1521

Although I cannot help you with information regarding photographs of the crew etc. but I can tell you that our museum recovered the remains of Whitley N1521 from the Zwanenwater in Holland during 1995 and 1998. It had crashed on January 15th,1941 after having been shot down by a nightfighter.

Some pics of the recovery can be found at:

www.arg1940-1945.nl

Cheers

Cees

Mark,

I wouldn’t have thoguht that WWII personnel records would ever include photographs. Photos would be held seperately.

If you want to find any official photos of your grandfather it is best to look at his personnel records and see if there are any course numbers. It will definately have the date and place where he trained in various courses. Supply all that info to the RAF Museum, along with his service number, date of birth etc. and also dates he served on various squadrons and OTU’s. If the RAFM cannot supply course-related photos they should be able to tell you where they are held within the MOD. They must be held somewhere I think because look how many books have this type of photo where the author has sourced group photos.

I guess it will be more difficult to find out when Sgt H. Davies was on any courses, unless you source his records. But he may be in Sqn photos and you have a fair idea of when he was with your grandfather. If this was their first tour they may have trained at the same OTU as a crew too.

Here in NZ the system is much better. If the person is alive, no-one can source their personnel record except themselves. If they are dead, anyone can, so long as you produce evidence that they are indeed dead – such as a photocopy of a death notice from a newspaper, or if you have it, a death cert. No next of kin permission is needed. You can get up to two free per year, and after that they cost $25.00. So great for family research if you have one or two people to look up. Not so great if you want to look up 200 people like me.

Dave

Thanks, I am going to try the 77 Association again as I mentioned before. I am a Member of several other related Associations and Societies and am also in the process of following up some other leads, but its quite time consuming. Quite often you get an acknowledgement or thats interesting reply and that’s the last one hears from them. So some repeat letters may be in order.

Regarding Photographs, they did not have any official photographs on my grandfathers Personnel File, apparently the Personnel Archives retained only essential information as to keeping a historical record, mainly of the Units he served at, next of kin details, childs name, how much pension was paid for my grandmother, her son (dependent child) and that she received a War Gratuity. That my grandfather was ‘M.B.K’. (Missing Believed Killed) with confirmation of the ‘Killed in Action’ date (being the same as M.B.K.). The Personnel files of this era have apparently been slashed to just two sides of a very large pink card – very, very disappointing for the £25.00 I forked out.

There are a collection of photographs at the RAF Museum and the Imperial War Museum. To be honest I’m not sure whether it is that easy to trace an individual as there is several million, but they may have some indexed by Squadron (I shall have to inquire). Private news companies, Hulton Getty and Keele University, some are on loan from Keele I believe, to the German Government to trace potential undisturbed WW2 unexploded bomb sites.

Frequently local German infrastructure is brought to a standstill, when a WW2 bomb is discovered in a Marshalling Yard, near a main railway or town etc.

Despite Germany being our friends now, they are still being disrupted by the work of Bomber Command about 60 years ago! So they are attempting to locate the bomb sites apparently from Aerial Bomber Command photographs in some places, before they discover them by accident or on construction sites.

Thanks for your ideas

Mark

Originally posted by Observer
Dave
What I was trying to say is that the town/place details of the next of kin, that the CWGC show in both their Index of Cemeteries and Graves Volumes and also their online Debt of Honour Register, may have been their last contact address when they did their survey after the War to check relatives details and not necessarily the address of his parents when he died.

Yes, I see what you mean now. Tricky.

Does the RAF have a Central Photographic Establishment that holds all the official photos? If you cannot trace a photo through other means, the RAF may still hold official course group photos from the courses he’d done in the RAF. They always took photos. There were probably ones from when he enlisted, when he trained as a gunner and maybe even on the squadron/s.

Perhaps you’ll be lucky that his official photos were kept. I’m told that in the RNZAF CPE the majority of such photos from here were kept, though not all.

Have you also tried to contact other squadron members? Does 77 Sqn have an association? Maybe photos would arise that way. And biographical details.

I know these seem like obvious questions and you’ve probably already taken these routes, but perhaps if I persist in churning over the options I might think of something that can assist.

Mark, send me an e-mail to archierafATyahoo.co.uk (replacing the AT with @)

Archieraf and Dave

Archieraf
Please can you email me that complete list of Postcodes direct. If F/O B. F. Burbridge is alive and has a B.T. Telephone account and is not ex-directory, he may well show up.

Thanks Mark

Dave
What I was trying to say is that the town/place details of the next of kin, that the CWGC show in both their Index of Cemeteries and Graves Volumes and also their online Debt of Honour Register, may have been their last contact address when they did their survey after the War to check relatives details and not necessarily the address of his parents when he died.

(Also, I am not saying this is an error, but there are also some occasional errors in the Register and the CWGC are looking into these as they arise)

His next of kin details will be at RAF Innsworth, Gloucester, The Personnel and Management Agency of the Royal Air Force and you need written consent of the immediate next of kin to get details (so that’s tricky when you are tracing their home place/next of kin details). Their Archives seem to hold the Record Cards that would have been held by Records at Royal Air Force Ruislip in 1940.

I have my grandfathers Record Card from RAF Innsworth (colour photocopy) and I note my grandmother lived near the Base at Driffield, Yorks, despite them owning a house at Leicester. They would amend this when notified by the Airman as you suggest.

The A.H.B. (M.O.D.) should be able to confirm to me where his (parents) next of kin lived at the time of his death, as it should be on the Casualty File as you also suggest. I expect a reply any day now on that one.

All I want to do is trace a photograph of him and his Obituary in the Local Press, or School Newsletter (if one was printed).

Thanks

Mark

Mark, I have a Word document with a list of all (?) UK postcodes. I have used this in the past in conjunction with the BT online directory to methodically go through the country looking for former aircrew or relatives. It is time consuming, but I’ve had luck with some searches, particularly when the name is not too common. I can send you the list if it would be of any help although you may be able to find it online somewhere too as this is where I will have originally got it from. Best of luck.

Interesting. The MOD must have had a next of kin address when he died though. It is up to the individual airman/soldier/sailor to update thr next of kin address, especially in wartime. He would surely have known if his folks had shifted to another town (often happened due to war work, bombing, etc) because he’d probably have written to them and telephoned them maybe, and gone there when on leave. He should have updated the next of kin on his own files, it is a military requirement. The MOD must have also sent a telegram somewhere when he was killed. They’d probably have it on record?

Here in NZ the gazetting in newspapers of those who were missing/killed/wounded would list the name and town of next of kin. I’m sure it was the same in the UK. Find a daily paper that ran these gazzetes and they may reveal where his folks were.

Also, I’d give Geoff Davies a call anyway, he may be a cousin or something.

Are you guys planning to create a memorial or something? Best of luck anyway.

Hello Dave and Ian

Thanks for your responses.

It would be worth trying current Davies in the area.

Regarding CWGC for Harold Davies, I have done the same search on the Debt of Honour Register and come up with Bridgtown, Cannock.

I have already searched the Staffs County Street Directory (which covers all of Staffs including Bridgtown and Cannock for his father. I found a match and checked the Electoral Register for that address but his mothers details did not match up with the women listed at that address, so they could not have lived at Bridgtown when he died. There is no Obituary in any of the papers either (Local or County).

However, there is a Sgt H. Davies on the War Memorial at Stafford outside the Courthouse (but it could be another H. Davies). I have tried the Council, but nobody seemed to know whether there was an Inventory for the War Memorial. I have also had a request published in 3 West Midlands Newspapers, but nothing turned up.

I have looked at every name in every street in the 1940 Bridgtown Street Directory and conclude that the family did not live in Bridgtown, (or possibly even Staffs) at the time of his death.

Apparently, the CWGC sent out a questionaire, I believe after the War (1950’s) to the last known next of kin address to check details. Not everyone replied, most likely because they had moved house since the death, or were too distressed to respond.

Therefore it could be possible in the case of Harold Davies that at the time of the CWGC questionaire, the resident living at the ex home of Sgt Davies’s parents, forwarded the correspondence onto his parents. Therefore the place given on the CWGC Register might be the later address of his parents or next of kin when the CWGC conducted the survey. Nothing shows up in the 1940 Bridgtown/Cannock local press, street indexes, or Electoral Register.

One final point regarding the crash near EASTLEIGH, Hants is that a balloon did finally bring the aircraft down AFTER the aircraft had already lost height. But I have discovered that the circumstances before the crash are not what they seem, despite the crew being blamed for their own loss and that of the Whitley because of being off track. They ought to be cleared in light of what I have found.

Thanks

Mark

Hi Dave I’ve used 192.com before now to search just on a name in the UK, without geographical location.

Hi Mark,

A search on CWGC gave me Harold Davies, died 15th Aug 1940 in 77 Sqn. I assume this is the chap. CWGC lists his parents as being from Bridgtown, Cannock, Staffordshire

A google on Davies in Bridgtown, brought up this name:

Geoff Davies Transport Unit 5, New St Bridgtown Cannock Staffordshire WS11 3DD Tel: 01543 573140

I don’t know how big the town is, but he may well be a relative, or he may know of other Davies’s in the town if he’s not a relative. I don’t know if it will, but I hope this helps. Good luck.

Copyright Public Record Office AIR 27 & AIR 28

Crown Copyright Public Record Office AIR 27 and AIR 28