Triplane air to air

That exhibition was in the Agricultural Hall in Islington in 1919. There may well hve been a Dr1 at biggin in 1919 but they were thin on the ground by the end of the war. The DVII was much more interesting.

MH

That’s really interesting and quite galling really, in that obviously what would have now been prized and priceless exhibits in the IWM or RAFM got scrapped/broken up sometime afterwards…. :confused: :rolleyes:

And after WW2 we still did it…..and are still doing it :rolleyes:

I have a photo of me asw a nipper standing in front of the old Leisure Sport DR1, if anyone’s interested! 😀

I’ve found a photo of what appears to be a Fokker D-V11 minus fabric covering with what is described as Stapenhorst’s checkered Triplane, behind it. It’s taken inside a hanger(?) behind a guardrail with what appears to be a muesum style description board in front of it. Guessing this was part of a immediate post war display of captured aircraft….?
Same book also quotes the appearance of a Triplane at Biggin Hill in 1919….I wonder what became of that….. :rolleyes: 😮

That exhibition was in the Agricultural Hall in Islington in 1919. There may well hve been a Dr1 at biggin in 1919 but they were thin on the ground by the end of the war. The DVII was much more interesting.

MH

There is evidence to suggest that the DoX was the only airframe destroyed in the raid, the others having all been moved. There were also other Dr1s in Berlin (possibly another two) including 152/17 and there was one in France that was destroyed in WW2. Many people have suggested this was in the Musee de l’Air but this is not so, I was told years ago it was in another museum that got bombed, the M de l’Air got away with it.

MH

I’ve found a photo of what appears to be a Fokker D-V11 minus fabric covering with what is described as Stapenhorst’s checkered Triplane, behind it. It’s taken inside a hanger(?) behind a guardrail with what appears to be a muesum style description board in front of it. Guessing this was part of a immediate post war display of captured aircraft….?
Same book also quotes the appearance of a Triplane at Biggin Hill in 1919….I wonder what became of that….. :rolleyes: 😮

Whose markings is the Breighton Dr1 painted in? I can’t recall off the top of my head.

Given that there were only 320 Triplanes built, I reckon there’s a good proportion of that number built and flying nowadays!

When the Memorial Flight triplane arrived in France to be completed and have the rotary fitted Eberhard Fritsch, who had made it, was asked if he had any preference for colour scheme and he said “Paint it any colour you like but if you paint it red I am taking it back to Germany!”

Eberhard also had one of the better comments on the whole Richthofen saga, he said “What does it matter who killed him, he’s still dead!”

MH

Dunno, it worked in the good ol’ BofB….!

I think the argument is over the colour of the engine cowling.
I think it all started when a well known Great War historian/author stated that it was yellow.

Yellow….. 😮
Hmmnnn…..I know the Germans had some weird ideas of colour in the Great War, but green and yellow………..doesn’t seem a wonderfully fetching, or very likely, colour combination….yuk 😀

Graham

The old Airfix Fokker was Voss’s, and it had a green cowl – I remember this ‘cos I built three or four over the years.

Andy,
Regarding the Voss Dr.1, not wanting rake up old arguments, but not knowing that this is arguements over the Voss machine, is it over what shade of green or whether it was green at all….. :confused:

Firebird
I think the argument is over the colour of the engine cowling.
I think it all started when a well known Great War historian/author stated that it was yellow.
I have no clue as to where he got that information.
Presumably someone else who can read colour into B&W prints.
Cheers
Andy

If you think Great War people get their knickers in a twist over Von R’s triplane colours you should try to get agreement on the colours of this aircraft and as for the colour of the Voss Dr.I—just don’t OK.

Andy,
Regarding the Voss Dr.1, not wanting rake up old arguments, but not knowing that this is arguements over the Voss machine, is it over what shade of green or whether it was green at all….. :confused:

As for the Siemens-Schuckert D-IV, I found this paragraph in an old WW1 reference book.
In a number of ways the type (D-IV) was superior to the redoubtable Fokker D-VII, and some pilots claimed that it was the best fighter at the front. Major K.L. Caldwell (25 victories), the New Zealand C.O. of 74 Sqn, RAF., in a combat report dated Sept 24th 1918, commented thus: ‘These E.A. appear to be very handy in manoeuvre, but their speed was less than that of an S.E. Their climb seemed much better, but their zoom not so good….very handy in dogfighting.’

Siemans Schuckert.

Hi Jim
Glad you could join us.
The Siemans Schuckert series of fighters did hold out great potential but as Melv I think said the rotary engine was at the end of it’s design lifespan and castor oil was in short supply by 1918 in Germany.
Also the Siemans Halske Sh III engine was hellish complicated and prone to cooling problems. That’s why the cowlings on the SSW series fighters were always chopped down to just that sort of spidery cowl. Originally they were close cowled but had to be withdrawn while modifications were carried out.
Also despite what has been written I think they suffered pretty badly from rotary torque problems and spun like tops.
I think the D.III got into service but the even better D.IV was just a bit too late.
The most famous SSW D.III pilot was Ernst Udet who had one marked with his ‘Lo’ insignia.
Lo was the name of his first wife I think an opera singer called Lo Zink.
If you think Great War people get their knickers in a twist over Von R’s triplane colours you should try to get agreement on the colours of this aircraft and as for the colour of the Voss Dr.I—just don’t OK.
Cheers
Andy
PS I’ve often wondered why Castor Oil was so short in Germany. Perhaps after eating all that sausage and Sauerkraut they had upset stomachs!!!
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

Any chance of scanning it, Melv, so we can see what a real Fokker looks like??

Bit up to my armpits at the moment, moving Rearwins (also Red), scanning 200plus photos for a book on hot air engines (not one of mine, a contract typesetting and design job) and trying to stay cool.

I will if I get time,

Melv

I have read in a couple of books that the Siemens-Schuckert DIV was the best fighter to acheive (limited) operational status, the contra-rotating rotary providing prodigious climbing ability as well as no change of trim in turns.

Andy-in-beds, as you can see I have moved from lurker to poster . It was nice to meet you and your wife at OW, and earlier at Duxford.

Any chance of scanning it, Melv, so we can see what a real Fokker looks like??

Melv
who actually wrote the Datafile Special??
It sounds like there may be some ‘really’ new stuff in the that.
Andy

There are a few previously unpublished photos but most of the information was previously available in other places. It was written by Ed Ferko. I don’t know if it is even still available, I have had this for ages.

I have also just looked in Paul Leaman’s DR1 book and that has a picture of the all-red 425/17 and one of 152/17, that was originally painted with red tail and red upper wing, in all red later in the war. There is also a picture of it in the Berlin Arsenal after the war, still in its wartime paint and clearly having dark undersides.

Melv

All Red…

Melv
who actually wrote the Datafile Special??
It sounds like there may be some ‘really’ new stuff in the that.
Andy

Let’s not forget that film “Von Richthofen and Brown”….

Hi

From what I understand, the red triplane in my photos is in the correct colours. His Triplane was never all red, just the fuse and upper wing surfaces.

Alex….
www.warbirdsovernewzealand.com

That depends on the triplane and, indeed, the Albatross as he flew more than one. The photo of Jasta 11 that was used as the basis for the Led Zeppelin album cover was taken in front of a red D.III. According to the Windosck special this had blue under surfaces and only had the upper wing partially painted red although a photo of the same machine is captioned as being all-red!

As for the triplanes, the Windsock lists nine that were known to have been flown by Richthofen. One of these, 161/17 is profiled and this and the photographs of the same aeroplane show it in the colours of the one in your photo. There are photos of 425/17, the Dr1 that Richthofen was flying when he was killed, and these clearly show it to be all red, at least on the upper surfaces, although a fabric cross from the lower wing in the Australian War Memorial shows this to be red too. There is also evidence this was painted at the factory and so would not have had an ‘interim’ or half red finish at any time.

It is worth getting a copy of the Windsock special as there are some good photos in there. As with ALL Richthofen stuff though you need to be careful. It seems that everyone who writes about Richthofen wants to be an expert and so few of them go back to any source material. I have been reading this stuff for years and the amount of re-hash is incredible! I had to review a book about Richthofen once and it was terrible. The guy used Richthofen’s own WW1 book as source material and this is well known to have been ghost written and was wartime propoganda. He also stated that Manfred mistreated Moritz, his Irish Wolfhound, as it was his defence mechanism against being short! With stuff like this around it gets increasingly hard to get to the true stuff.

MH

Hi

From what I understand, the red triplane in my photos is in the correct colours. His Triplane was never all red, just the fuse and upper wing surfaces.

When you see this aircraft bank with the sun on it, all you can see is a blood red aircraft. And when he pops up behind the tail of an F2b, just before you are filled with holes, the Triplane looks all red.

And I can assure you that the appearance of the Triplane from under the tail is bloody scary.

Alex….
www.warbirdsovernewzealand.com

Thanks guys. I wondered if it was only one aircraft. Something else that has been lost to history.

The Triplanes look fantastic and these photos are just stunning.
Are these aircraft really commissioned/owned by Peter Jackson?