Trying to identify Lancaster wreck

David was good to have a look at your site “wallyswar” Coincidentally my father was also Walter, and likewise referred to as Wally!

You have obviously put a lot more work and effort into your research than I have – well done, it makes interesting reading. How I wish I had my fathers log book it would make things considerably easier for me. Also wish I had shown more interest in all this whilst he was still alive.

All the best Ross.

[QUOTE=David Layne;2037562]

Not that it adds to this thread but I did find the wreckage of my father’s aircraft, you can read about it here. http://wallyswar.wordpress.com/crash-site-research/

Congratulations on finding the site and thanks for sharing your findings with us.

[QUOTE=David Layne;1350985]

JA977 was lost near Metz between 23 and 24 september 1943, during a raid on Mannheim.

Interestingly, my father’s aircraft Lancaster JA 708 was lost on that same raid. I have no knowledge of where JA 708 crashed.

Not that it adds to this thread but I did find the wreckage of my father’s aircraft, you can read about it here. http://wallyswar.wordpress.com/crash-site-research/

Hi all,

I now have a slight doubt about the pictures being of JA858 – the pictures show 9 bombs painted on the side of the fuselage indicating this was the 10th mission ? Looking on the 156 Squadron website JA858 appears to have only done seven prior to being shot down (Hamburg, Turin, Genoa, Peenemunde, Berlin, Nurnburg, Berlin and the final Mannheim 05/09/1943 when it was shot down by night fighter/s). Am I missing something ?

Hi Schalabeer / everyone investigating the pictures of the crashed Lancaster

This thread has been very interesting to me as my father was Sgt Walter Friend who was the wireless operator on JA858 GT-Y. He managed to bale out but was soon captured and became a prisoner of war until the end of the war spending most of this time in Stalag IVB (Muhlberg).

You do not know how much it means to me to have stumbled across the photo’s of JA858 and to have found out where it actually came down. Thanks to all of you for all your work in identifying the aircraft and all the interesting posts. Looking at the pictures and reading the posts has proved very moving / emotional !.

Schalabeer – I would love to get in touch with you if at all possible but realise that four years have past after your post !

Hello!

We’ve found out, that the Lancaster is the JA858 GT-Y, which crashed on 5/6th september 1943.
JA858 was lost on its 10th mission.
How could I find out, if someone of the crew is still alive?
Many thanks!

Kindest regards

Schalabeer

Do someone have more informations or pictures from the Lancaster ED625?

schalabeer

Hello!

I’m the owner of the pictures. I’ve recieved an Email today. I wrote the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to find out where the 2 crew-members of the Lancaster JA858 were buried before they were reburied in Choloy War Cemetery. They were buried in the War Cemetery of St. Louis les Bitch, which was 25 km away from the crash-site. But JA858 had flown only 3 Missions before the crash and there are 9 bomb-marks on the photos.
Sorry for my bad english.

Kind regards

Schalabeer

Hi everybody,

First: many thanks to all for taking part in this. There are no further pictures of the wreck and I don’t know if the owner has contacted any local newspaper or cemetary or anything like that.

I believe that the devil would be looking towards the nose of the aircraft (the direction the aircraft is flying). If this is correct than it would be from the port side. If this were the starboard side then he would be looking towards the tailplane which I find unlikely. Also the bomb-log would then be in front of the nose-art, usually, I think, the bomb log would be behind the nose-art. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Another point is: is this the complete nose-art? It might as well have been two devils heralding some shield or the like and the rest was seperated from this piece. Just an idea.

Peter

I see it as a trident too.

Best way forward is to flick through every Lancaster picture we can find…and find that devil.

Yes, you’re both right 😮

I see it as a trident too.

Best way forward is to flick through every Lancaster picture we can find…and find that devil.

Looks more like the prongs of the devil’s trident to me.

Just to add my own two penn’orth…

Is that the end of a name to the left of the devil figure? Ending in an R, or a stylised N perhaps? Circled in green below:

Peter G

I thought the nose art was from the stbd side of the nose when I ffirst looked at the picture. Now that I have zoomed in on it, there is no evidence of a canopy or its mounting at all. You can cleearly see the camoflage demarcation line. Were there any other pictures of this wreck?

I have been looking through the Luftwaffe claims list for September 1943 and did not find any Lancaster claims for the Lorraine region. This does not mean much, as there are unidentified aircraft among the claims (and unidentified locations too). Furthermore, the aircraft could have been downed by flak, or have been trying to make it home with damage.

However, I noted that Luftwaffe have a number of Lancaster claims for France in August 1943. Maybe we should go through the lost bomber list for august.

The bomb count/mission tally was for the aircraft – not the crew!

Just look through the Ton-Up-Lancs and see the number of crew changes – but the mission tally continued to rise…

In my day job I work for a company in nearby Alsace and there are a couple of interlopers from Lorraine working there- so if you have any questions on French I may be able to assist.

As remains of SBCs were still in the bomb-bay I guess this is unlikely. I might suggest that the known dates might be mistaken. I have asked the owner of these images to recheck the dates. I think ED 883 was indeed lost on its tenth operation, but on Sept. 23/24 on a raid to Mannheim which could have made it cross that area.

Peter

Have you tried to contact a local news paper, or historical society?

Its very possible that they know something. My French is not good enough (I can order a beer), but maybe there are French forumites.

ED883 was lost on the same operation, that saw the loss of JA977 in the Lorraine region. Its therefore its very possible that ED883 also crossed the same area.

However, ED883 was on its first operation with 100 Sqdn and its 9 operations where with No156 Sqdn. Would the aircraft keep the mission markings after changing sqdn?

Is it not the crew history, rather than the AC history, that is marked?

If so, its still possible that the crew transfered with the AC.

Could the AC have been flying drops for SOE, or some other operation outside Bomber Command and thus not listed as a bomber command loss?

As remains of SBCs were still in the bomb-bay I guess this is unlikely. I might suggest that the known dates might be mistaken. I have asked the owner of these images to recheck the dates. I think ED 883 was indeed lost on its tenth operation, but on Sept. 23/24 on a raid to Mannheim which could have made it cross that area.

Peter

Peter,
what tells you that the nose-art is on the staboard side and not the port?

Does anyone here have “Bomber Command Losses”? Surely it must be noted in there which Lancasters were lost around, or shortly before September 19th 43. Like Mondariz said: Perhaps the wreckage was there for a few days before it was photographed.

Peter

There is a bomber command losses website, where you can access a very detailed database:

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/

The problem is, that some of the have an unknown crash site. As fas as I can see, only JA977 is known to have been lost in the Lorraine region in September 1943. However, this AC was on its first mission (the one depicted had 9 missions, according to the markings).

Could the AC have been flying drops for SOE, or some other operation outside Bomber Command and thus not listed as a bomber command loss?