TSR2… What name would it have been given?

HS681 would probably have been called “Aldershot” it appears.

Names for TSR2 just don’t seem to have any foundation. They all seem to have grown from rumours and home-grown theories. The only vaguely useful detail is the plan to name the F-111K “Merlin” which might suggest that had history been different, the same name might have first been applied to TSR2.

One other interesting snippet is that “TSR2” was never a proper name for the aircraft at all, and it was simply a phrase used by the Ministry of Supply to refer to the weapons system as a whole… and subsequently became an accepted term. Technically-speaking, the aircraft remained as the “Vickers-Supermarine Type 571” throughout its short life.

The TSR2 along with stuff on Spitfires is one of the most over discussed topics on this forum, so in keeping with the spirit of that, I thought the name “Dud” might be appropiate.

You can feel your IQ drop at the mention of TSR2

cheers

Or alternately just ignore the thread if the topic annoys you so much and let others get on with it? Perhaps a better topic is why do Proctors look so suited to being burnt on a fire dump? :dev2:;)

… or maybe we could start a “Totally Irrelevant and Pointless Comments” thread? :p

Very interesting stuff, thanks for digging this stuff out.
Definately beginning to merge back with the aircraft names thread!

The bird of prey thing really seems to have been a Hawker (company or MoS) thing though.
In one of the links (also a modelling page) posted by DaveF86, there is an admission by someone that he may have been responsible for the Eagle name being related to the TSR-2 becoming a popular myth today.

I really don’t see how it fits with the naming policy (or lack of!) of the day

Joe has been researching the TSR2 for a lot of years, and probably has seen more about it than anyone else. His ascertation of ‘Eagle’ was based on a conversation with one of the project team, and was the first time he had heard a ‘favoured’ name.

If you take Harrier as an example of how a name evolves. According to F K Mason, the name for a possible P1127 RAF was originally suggested in 1961. He put forward a list of names including Hawk, Harrier, Kestrel and Heron. Sir Sidney Camm favoured ‘Harrier’. He felt that Hawk could be confused with Seahawk and Heron had been used before on a Hawker design (as well as being a De Havilland name) – Mason says Camm evidently forgot there had been a previous Harrier. Camm also felt Kestrel was a Rolls Royce name.

In 1963, Kestrel was chosen for the Tripartite P1127 (and is probably appropriate for a hovering aeroplane). Harrier was retained as a name for the P1154.

When the P1154 was cancelled, and the P1127 (RAF) was ordered, it was given a ‘new’ name – Harrier. An apocrophal tale tells that this was deliberately not ‘Kestrel GR2’ so that HMG could claim it was a new aircraft and not have to pay any royalties to those who funded the Kestrel (Germany & the US).

Names are authorised by the then Air Council/Board from a list supplied by what would now be called the Project team.

As to post war policy, in Gordon Wainsborough-White’s book ‘Names with Wings’ he reveals that a 1951 Memo confirms the Air Council make the decison, and also states that previous traditions, including alliterative naming of fighters, was considered unneccessarily restrictive, and that in future each name should be considered on it’s own merits

‘Names with wings’ also gives some alternatives, from researched sources, for some of the aircraft discussed.

A 1952 memo notes that they should move away from town names for Bombers as town names were placid and stodgy. Avro wanted ‘Ottowa’ for the Vulcan and ‘ HP ‘London’ or ‘Hostile’ for the Victor. The Chief of the Air Staff wanted a ‘V’ class to follow on from Valiant. The Civil Service rep thought descriptive names should apply.

Other names considered included:

Avro – Andover,Argus, Arcturus, Atalanta, Arthur, Attiles
HP -London, Edinburgh, Hamilton, Hertford, harwell, Hostile

for other types:

VC10 – Victoria (Favoured by CiC Transport Command), Venture, Voyager, Viceroy, Windsor, Warwick, Winchester, Upavon, Valentia, Van Dyke (!!!!), with Vickers suggesting Weybridge. Sir Geoffrey Tuttle was the AVM who suggested ‘just calling it VC10″)

Nimrod – Plymouth, Osprey, Cormorant, Trenchard, Drake, Slessor, Albatross were all proposed. Mr Wandsborough-White reveals that he himself suggested ‘Nimrod’ to Lord Shackleton.

Andover – Abingdon, Tramp, Aden, Arab

It’s all fascinating stuff!!

I found a test flite video of TSR-2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXdJxjvQZW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5hI8LxvOx8&feature=related

I used to have a plastic model of TSR 2 at age 14 ( 32 years ago ).
Like this Airfix model: http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/malli_5199/

Looks a bit like the Mach Buster prop plane.

Eagle sounds a neat name.

The bird of prey thing really seems to have been a Hawker (company or MoS) thing though.
In one of the links (also a modelling page) posted by DaveF86, there is an admission by someone that he may have been responsible for the Eagle name being related to the TSR-2 becoming a popular myth today.

I really don’t see how it fits with the naming policy (or lack of!) of the day

Any chance we can see it, or how we can find it?
I’ve really never heard of a name being officially thought of for the TSR-2, and I really don’t see how the bird of prey scheme fits.

Model Aircraft Monthly had a string of articles going over the documentation relating to the TSR2 in 2007. Most of this was memos rather than official orders, but of what exists relating to the name, the evidence points to Eagle. The original ‘Harrier’ BTW the P1154 was definitely in the ‘fast jet’ category as a supersonic VTOL aircraft for the RAF and FAA and this was contemporary with the TSR2. As has been suggested, Merlin was mooted for the F-111, though I haven’t seen anything official relating to this. I don’t think the bird of prey theme was official policy, but does seem to have been a passing fad in the early-mid 60s. The only dissenter from this period is the Jaguar, but that was an Anglo-French design and I suspect the name derived from ECAT(Ecole de Combat et Appui Tactique) and later SEPECAT.

I liked the BOAC advert for the VC-10 outside Clapham Junction station – back in the mid sixties……

Playing on the smoothness & quietness of the design, it read …..

Try a little VC-10..derness

Ken

PS – I think the quietness applied to those inside – not outside 😮

VC-10 in an interesting one. the designation is the Vickers post war sequential one – VC-1 was the Viking, VC-2 the Viscount, VC-7 was the final form of what is also known as the V-1000, VC-9 the Vanguard.

The then chairman of Vickers later stated that, when it came to the VC-10, Vickers just got tired of finding new names.

When the RAF bought some, a number of names were suggested, but it was decided to just keep it as VC-10 on the suggestionof one of the Air Marshalls on the committee. A comment was also made that this would ‘please BOAC’.

It was given the name ‘Cancelled’-get over it!!

See what you mean

Opens ok from Post 5 and seems to be well researched.

I think the name appears to have been discussed but not become formal.

I have always known it as the TSR2

I can’t open the link TBird?
But because there have been many threads on this (and lets face it, there has) or a few websites etc, it dosen’t mean that anything was actually applied. The Canberra ‘TSR-1’ and ‘DaKoTa’ acronym which have recently being doing the rounds is proof positive of this.

Edit, just opened and read it, some interesting points in there. As a side point I do think that the TSR-2, and F-111, would have received a name, as per all RAF combat aircraft, maybe company or MoD choosing
Surely the two types would have had the same name, as one would have been used over the other design?

Pagen,

The thread mentioned in post 5 by DaveF68 gives further details

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index….c,15271.0.html

It is well worth a read as are some of the other TSR2 threads on this site

You don’t need to guess – there’s plenty of AM documentation naming the aircraft ‘Eagle’.

Any chance we can see it, or how we can find it?
I’ve really never heard of a name being officially thought of for the TSR-2, and I really don’t see how the bird of prey scheme fits.

Don’t forget even VC-10 is an actual company name for the Vickers V.1150 series.

I never knew that either – I just assumed it never allocated one by a committee etc – I do know that there was a push for the Americans to take them as part of F-111 (and other?) deals – wonder what they would have come up with?

IF the TSR2 was to enter service today but with a modern electronics/radar fit how would it compare to many current aircraft in the same role?

If I had to guess I would have said that it would have picked up the wind theme again – like the Tornado did.

You don’t need to guess – there’s plenty of AM documentation naming the aircraft ‘Eagle’.

I think Moggy is correct it would have received a proper name, probably from the manufacturer before the MoD.

Don’t forget even VC-10 is an actual company name for the Vickers V.1150 series.