Turing's notebook sold in New York for £701K

Jim, I wish we had a replica to ‘escort’ it down the channel!

I just hope that this French ship, on it’s way to the USA to state they will fight alongside against the States against us, meets one of OUR replicas, and gives it a Broadside of 32pounders in passing…..:D
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Meanwhile, in France:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32363884

Paul – I enjoyed reading your post and there is much with which to agree. In fact I don’t think we are far apart in what we are saying.

We agree on the meanings of the two words but part company on the application. I believe that much fine art and that includes music and literature carries a very high value regardless of its worth in the open market. Whereas the worth of an item counted in £SD – forgive the old terminology – is objective and fixed at any given moment, its value is ephemeral. Value to the nation, value to the individual, sentimental value, valuable as an artefact. All proper applications of the word but meaning different things to different people in different circumstances.

The cultural heritage of our or any nation includes the industrial tradition and that to my mind is of equal value to the artistic tradition.

The value of anything is related to the demand for it, whatever our subjective opinion of the value is.

I think your remarks about the total lack of interest in “working art” as opposed to “fine art” are true. But there should be a place for both and I disagree with those who hold a philistine view of the value of the arts in society.

Charlie

Firstly, although having used the word myself, I had to look up philistine and then culture, and then “the arts”!!

I tend to take the OED as definitive in these matter.

Whilst a good rule in life is to stop digging when the hole starts getting too deep in fact the definitions do actual underline what the difficulty is that I and others perceive.

The OED defines a philistine as

A person who is hostile or indifferent to culture and the arts:

But the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary states

a person who does not like or understand art, literature, music, etc.

culture is not included.

I am certainly not indifferent to culture nor do I dislike or not understand all art etc. Thus I was mistaken in using the word philistine. I used the word because I do dislike classic literature, most opera and the works of such people as Emin and Hirst. Oh and that pottery, Troika, ugly stuff.

So now that I think I understand properly all that I will come to the point.

Clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder and therefore subjective. Value in the area we are talking however is a different matter and I am finding the semantics difficult as they appear to cross. The actual value of an item in the arts word is, in the main fairly negligible, where I am defining the value as the costs of materials and labour. The worth of the item is what it will fetch on the open market. Sorry about this I am not commenting on how you used the words you chose but I needed to use two different words to make my point.
Thus in the terms I have used the items worth is what it can obtain on the open market. My problem with this is that markets are manipulated and created especially in the arts world. What is the real reason that Emin’s bed has sold for £2M5? She sold it to Saatchi for £150K. Mr. Saatchi is of course famous in the art world so if he bought it it must be the up and coming thing and therefore a good investment. I wonder if Mr Saatchi was aware of this and thought he may be able to turn a profit. A painting you can hang on the wall, but a bed? The new owner Count Duerckheim has the solution. He has given it to the Tate so that he doesn’t have to look after it while it’s value accrues. Fortunately the Tate couldn’t afford to buy it for the nation. I’m just waiting for the little boy to come along and say “hey the king has got no clothes on.”

So with fashion designers. Remember the Nike stripe track suits. One strip first year, two the next so everybody had to go out and buy those and then three the next. Football clubs even got criticized for repeatedly changing the design of their strips to produce more income for the club. Fashion, all change every year, what colour is it this year, what length skirt, shorts, trousers or culottes, sporty wear. Changed every year by the designers to sell more clothes. I read that bras are “out” this year, I shall have to mention that to my wife.

So the point I was making was not that there was no value in “fine art” but it’s worth was greatly inflated and of little educational value. When public money is involved considerably more of the pot should go to “working art” by which I hope you mean this countries industrial, engineering and architectural artefacts which is also educational this being a major feature when applying for any grant. So yes of course both.

Just sufficient money to save these artefacts from total loss would be a start. In many cases actual money is not needed just time by not making a sale to the highest bidder.
Long Marston is a huge opportunity lost to the developers and should have been sold to the NRM for £1. Airframes and warships for the cost of moving them out of the way. Yes they may rot away but destroying them guarantees their loss. Who ever thought we would bring the Great Britain back from the Falklands or that the Adelaide would eventually be saved despite many attempts to have her broken up. Or be recovering the stones from the canal into which they were dumped to rebuild the Euston Arch. We do not know what the future may bring but past history tells me that we will want some of what we are destroying today.

So more of the pot for creative works of art like a steam engine (look at the criticism that the NRM recives for its expenditure to bring the two A4s over from North America or what they have spent on the Flying Scotsman.), vehicles, buses, trams, cars, engineering in general, buildings, oh and of course aeroplanes, did I not mention aeroplanes.

Paul

Remember the war and the UK Governments drive on metals in which the UK’s landscape changed overnight as ornate wrought iron fences were torn down for the war effort… It was sadly just a way to get the public involved as the material was worthless for the war effort.

Btw did you know they no longer manufacture Wrought Iron, that used to day is reclaimed material.

The value of anything is related to the demand for it, whatever our subjective opinion of the value is.

I think your remarks about the total lack of interest in “working art” as opposed to “fine art” are true. But there should be a place for both and I disagree with those who hold a philistine view of the value of the arts in society.

I know what you are saying but it isn’t about the ‘scrap value’ of the artefacts, it is their perceived value…

…what is the ‘scrap value’ of a country house and estate?

How many of those have been saved? Fifty? One hundred?

Warren. In reply to the above, one must remember, regarding redundant engineering items, they are worth more given as scrap, melted down, as their upkeep would far outweigh their value. But what value to anyone would be a melted down Picasso?.
I served my apprentiship on steam rail engines, and have worked on Mallard, Flying Scotsman et al, when the change over came to diesel, many of the lesser well known engines, ie those without names, were cut up and went for scrap, our friend Mr, Beecham, completed the demise of Railways that many other Forumites here remember, when younger.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Agree with the sentiments CD, but there comes a point when the Government budget for “nice to do” items has to give way to the need to enssure we have enough cash for the “must do” items.

I would agree if it wasn’t for the fact that in 2014, the last year I checked, Britain had spent over £50billion on the ‘Media, Culture and Sport’ budget…..more than Britain spent on defence and at a time of ‘austerity’!

And I am not asking for huge sums to be spent; just a readjustment of the way the spending is directed.

£1billion, less than 10%, of the Overseas Aid annual budget could probably have funded every single industrial or engineering preservation project in the country!

Also the ‘art’ that was not funded or (God forbid!) sold would not be ‘lost’ it would just be preserved by another individual or country…

…our ‘lost’ (and unique) industrial heritage is literally destroyed forever. Imagine the outcry if some of the artwork stored for decades in a gallery basement was taken out and thrown on a bonfire!

Do not forget that tourism is Britsin’s third biggest industry; properly funded industrial heritage could bring millions of pounds worth of tourism into some of the most deprived, post-industrial, areas of Britain. Funding could also be channelled from ‘job creation’ budgets and there is no reason that apprenticeship schemes couldn’t be run within the heritage sector.

It may also change attitudes towards industry and engineering, especially in the young, and give back some of the ‘pride’ to the ordinary ‘working-class’ men and women, and their descendants, who made this country great!

Remember Britain is desperately short of engineers, now and will be even more so in the future; what message does it send if the nation seems to be almost ashamed of our industrial past?

Preservation of Engineerign/Industrial heritage

The lack of government interest in preserving historic engineering in this country makes me absolutely sick to my stomach; if it hadn’t been for dedicated volunteers hardly a single piece of our engineering or industrial heritage would have survived!

Agree with the sentiments CD, but there comes a point when the Government budget for “nice to do” items has to give way to the need to enssure we have enough cash for the “must do” items.

Preserving heritage is nice if a government can afford it, but how many people would be happy to pay extra taxes to preseve “an old battleship”…some posters on here might, but equally, how many of us on here would want to pay extra taxes to preserve some “old piece of china” or somesuch? Priorities will always be subjective, what some people view as “worth saving” others would view as “old junk”…

Beauty and, to some extent thus, “value” is very much in the eye of the beholder….

But I do agree that “engineering” and industrial heritage does always seem to come second to spending on “arty f@rty” heritage in UK, but then I’m a philisitine. I’d far rather look at an old machine (of pretty much any ilk) than look at what others tell me I should see as “a fine piece of art” :-), especially some of the modern “conceptual” art … a crack in the floor of an old powerstation, or a dirty unmade bed…nope, sorry thats not art, but a steam loco “in steam”, a preserved EE Lightning, or even an early printing press … well, they are real works of art in my eyes.

Cynics might say there is more “spare” money in the overhyped “art” sector than in the “hard graft” engineering sector, and as we all know ‘money talks’ – the movers and shakers in the art world may have more money to throw at preserving things, or more influence, and the thing they tend to “save” often take relatively little money to “maintain” for posterity, unlike most industrial heritage items/sites, that need constant “tinkering” to keep them up to scratch.

Add in the fact that UK has become a service-driven economy, so far fewer people get involved in making something “tangible” as part of their day to day job, and it is perhaps easy to see why “engineering” (and its heriatge) is not seen as important by many people. Although UK still has many Hi-Tech/Top end engineering skills and companies, they tend to employ relatively few heads unlike the past when many Brits built ships, cars, trains, or made textile products etc every working day. So, few of today’s MPs have much experience of engineering, or industrial operations, as few of them have much of it going on in their constituencies.

Thank heavens for the likes of James Dyson (though it is a shame he outsourced his manufacturing to Far east IIRC), and Pete Waterman (check out his investment in engineering apprenticeships), who do see the value of engineering, and try to ensure UK retains skills in that area!

The list of things we Brits invented, or played a crucial role in design/development of, is impressive, its a crying shame few of todays youngsters seem to know we had leading roles in things like Steam engine, railways, Computers, navigation systems (reliable timepices, concepts of latitude/longitude etc), The connected internet, Jet Engine, Mobile/Cell phone systems, Cast Iron, Powered weaving looms, genetics, etc etc – the list is long, and many of them (or their derivatives) still underpin our modern lifestyle… shame todays youngsters only seem to want to find fame (and fortune) via sporting prowess, or as a “celebrity”.

IMHO far too much public money is spent on fine art being ‘saved for the nation’ (not that the ‘bed’ by Tracy Emin falls into this category on either count); there must be billions of pounds worth of art stored in basements that hasn’t been seen by the public for decades…

…and yet HMS Plymouth, the last British warship from the Falklands conflict was towed away for scrap recently!

The lack of government interest in preserving historic engineering in this country makes me absolutely sick to my stomach; if it hadn’t been for dedicated volunteers hardly a single piece of our engineering or industrial heritage would have survived!

Her “seminal” work. How apt – well spotted Paul!!;)

I am sorry Lincoln.7 but I seem to have given you the wrong idea.

If it wasn’t for Google Bletchley Park may well have succumbed to the developers which I understand was the plan in 2011. Google stepped in with considerable amounts of money to save the place for us and the world and create the museum.

My comment was that the latest notebook auction was won by an unknown bidder and that I am hoping that winner will turn out to be Google who will hopefully donate the notebook to Bletchely Park museum.

I agree entirely about your comments about works of “art” although even a Philistine like me wouldn’t actual classify Constable as a blobs painter. I was thinking of starting a thread when Tracey Emin’s bed sold for £2.5 M. Er yes that’s over two and a half million pounds. that’s £2,540,000. Now just think what engineering heritage could be saved with that and actually have some educational value and meaning.

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/jul/01/tracey-emin-my-bed-sale-auction

Apparently this was Emin’s seminal work and I think that the Japanese customs had the right idea.

Well done Google, who have managed to get one of our Countries pieces of Historical importance to leave this green and pleasant land. If it had been a few blobs of oil paints on a canvas, by some chap named Constable, there would have been uproar, and a Lottery grant would have soon have been forked out to keep it in this Country.
Having just watched the DVD which covers Turins part in the breaking of the Enigma code, I would like to think that the “Papers” would be re united back to where they belong, Bletchly Park, or at the very least, as a gesture of goodwill by Google, donated to the National Archives, where copies could be made and put on display at Bletchly Park, for visitors to see.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Let’s hope the buyer is Google who are highly supportive of Bletchley Park.

Why is Google in Love with Bletchley Park

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15739984