Turkey-Future Aviation Capable Ships

Argh! Yes, you are right, of course it should be the -56.

Thanks for the reply.

Should that be DE 1160/SQS-56 instead of SQS-26?

Any idea on the sonar(s) to be fitted to the MILGEM?

The sonar is being developed by TUBITAK (Turkiye Bilimsel ve Teknik Arastirmalar Kurumu; Turkish Scientific and Technological Research Association) and Turkish Navy R&D Center. It’s a derivative of US-made AN/SQS-26 already in use by Yavuz (MEKO 200TN I), Barbaros (MEKO 200TN II) and Gabya (FFG-7) classes. The last time I checked, tests were being made, I think it will be ready for installation on the first ship late this year or eraly 2009.

Any idea on the sonar(s) to be fitted to the MILGEM?

How about “spare parts” for the maintenance of the German-designed vessels that are currently being operated by the Turkish Navy and will remain in TN service for quite some time?

When I was talking about the “unrealism” regarding the “current situation”, I wasn’t referring to the MILGEM project, but to the MEKO frigates, Type 209 submarines, Lürssen-designed FACs and minehunters, etc. that are currently being operated by the Turkish Navy. These vessels won’t be retired too soon, and require maintenance and spare parts (not all spare parts are produced in Turkey.)

Contracts my friend… When you sign a contract, you have to provide support and spare parts etc for a given period of time, that’s your obligation.

PLUS

For maintenance and spare parts, manufacturers of the related systems are involved, not the shipbuilders. It seems you do not know the meaning of “shipbuilder”. Dragut; MTU is not a shipbuilder for example. For the maintenance of a MTU engine, we don’t need anything from B+V. Please do your homework.

The first MILGEM class warship (TCG Heybeliada) is expected to enter service in 2011, so MILGEM is not exactly part of the “current situation”, is it?

What are you trying to accomplish? No German shipbuild is involved in MilGem project and you still take it into the equation.

From the very beginning all I have been saying is that German shipbuilders have very little, if none, chance in Turkish naval projects.

They have lost a lot of credibility by their unreliable commercial and technical behavior, their “under-the-belt” efforts and pressures for harming or undermining the MilGem project. Because the succesfull execution of MilGem project will mark the virtual withdrawal of German shipbuilders from Turkish naval market.

Irrelevant. If Turkey doesn’t purchase anymore German ship designs, how possibly can this effect current fleet?

How about “spare parts” for the maintenance of the German-designed vessels that are currently being operated by the Turkish Navy and will remain in TN service for quite some time?

Since no German shipbuilder is involved in MilGem project, this assumption is automatically false.

When I was talking about the “unrealism” regarding the “current situation”, I wasn’t referring to the MILGEM project, but to the MEKO frigates, Type 209 submarines, Lürssen-designed FACs and minehunters, etc. that are “currently” being operated by the Turkish Navy. These vessels won’t be retired too soon, and require maintenance and spare parts (not all spare parts are produced in Turkey.)

The first MILGEM class warship (TCG Heybeliada) is expected to enter service in 2011, so MILGEM is not exactly part of the “current situation”, is it?

But this is also a major problem for the TN, since most of its platforms are German-designed (ships by Blohm + Voss and Lürssen, submarines by HDW.)

Irrelevant. If Turkey doesn’t purchase anymore German ship designs, how possibly can this effect current fleet?

MILGEM marks a new beginning for indigenously-designed vessels, but it’s still too soon to completely scrap the traditional Turkish-German partnership in the field of naval equipment. Too “unrealistic” for the current situation.

Since no German shipbuilder is involved in MilGem project, this assumption is automatically false.

And in Turkey, German naval firms in many many occasions have proven that they are unreliable. TN’s emotions are a by-product of their behavior and they should bear it.

But this is also a major problem for the TN, since most of its platforms are German-designed (ships by Blohm + Voss and Lürssen, submarines by HDW.)

In terms of “fighting vessels”, only the Perry and Knox class frigates (American), and Aviso class corvettes (French) of the Turkish Navy are not German-designed.

MILGEM marks a new beginning for indigenously-designed vessels, but it’s still too soon to completely scrap the traditional Turkish-German partnership in the field of naval equipment. Too “unrealistic” for the current situation.

You can always ask the Netherlands for some Zeven Provincien class ships. They are practically the same as the Sachsen class, only build by a Dutch yard (Royal Schelde, part of Damen Shipyards) in the Netherlands.

An official from Royal Schelde whom I talked to said that they were not interested in Turkey anymore because of some regulations and requirements regarding guarantees, technology transfer etc. He was talking about the LPD project but I think it would probably be the case for a possible cooperation on FFG’s too.

You can always ask the Netherlands for some Zeven Provincien class ships. They are practically the same as the Sachsen class, only build by a Dutch yard (Royal Schelde, part of Damen Shipyards) in the Netherlands.

Reelpolitik is important, but it does not justify working with a proven unreliable partner.

The “emotion towards Germany” was an example on how the TN was looking at German firms. If you pay attention, I also gave examples on how German firms have done business by trying to undermine the MilGem project. There are tons of such examples in naval projects with German firms.

Sachsen is of course a good candidate from a technical perspective. But it has a lot of dimensions. Even if it’s the most capable ship of the world, it cannot be produced with an unreliable partner.

And in Turkey, German naval firms in many many occasions have proven that they are unreliable. TN’s emotions are a by-product of their behavior and they should bear it.

A German based solution is -though not impossible- almost out of the table, as is the case with AIP submarine and after MilGem, corvette and FAC-based solutions. The German shipyards have lost a lot of credibility here in Turkey by their behaviour during the Type 209 project, and their efforts to undermine the MilGem project. I can summarize at least TN submarine personnel’s emotions towards the Germans by the word “hate”. So, a Sachsen based solution, if not zero, has very very little chance.

Such important decisions should be made with a cool and objective mind, and not according to emotions.

“Realpolitik” dictates that Turkey can’t continue to have cold relations with EU member states, particularly the strong ones like Germany and France (and vice-versa, hence the recent decision by the French Parliament to cancel the plan of “making a nationwide referendum for Turkey’s membership to the EU”, which was an election promise by Sarkozy. Realpolitik has, in the end, weighed heavier in France as well.) The recent launching of the new Turksat satellite to Space (designed in France and put to orbit from the French Guyana) two weeks ago is another good example. Turkey must have good relations even with the weak EU member states like Cyprus in the long run; therefore the Cyprus Dispute will also have to be resolved as long as Turkey wants to join the EU (which, I believe, will happen between 2015 and 2020.)

“Logic” also dictates that the Sachsen class (MEKO family warship) AAW frigate (effectively a destroyer) would be one of the ideal solutions for the Turkish Navy.

Let’s also bear in mind that the Type 209 submarines are built by HDW, while the MEKO type warships are built by Blohm + Voss (even though both firms are subsidiaries of ThyssenKrupp AG, they are not exactly the same company.)

But most of the armaments (launchers and missiles) on the FREMM (including the Italian versions) are French, so how are we going to by-pass this problem?

Mate an “X-based solution” does not necessarily mean using all the weapons and sensors system of that ship.

The French engine of the Eurocopter Tiger, alone, was enough of a problem during the ATAK tender, even though it’s effectively a Franco-German helicopter.

There was no such problem, since the Tiger was eliminated at the very first stage of the tender because of performance and design parameters set by the Army. If you are referring to the Rooivalk issue, there was also no such problem.

Even the Type 45 destroyer of the Royal Navy (formerly a part of the Horizon program) uses a French missile launcher (SYLVER) and French AAW missiles (MBDA Aster 15 and Aster 30); therefore a “U.K. collaboration” also doesn’t make sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_45_destroyer

The most politically problem-free solutions are the Sachsen and De Zeven Provinciën class frigates, or the Alvaro de Bazan and King Sejong the Great class destroyers (the latter one is huge though (165.9m), almost a cruiser and perhaps too large for the Aegean) as long as the U.S. gives Turkey the go-ahead to use the Aegis system and SM-2; which are no longer “exclusive” systems as they used to be a few years ago.

By the way, the KDX-III (King Sejong the Great) class destroyer (or light cruiser – a larger version of Arleigh Burke) has a formidable armament:

Mk 41 VLS 80 cells (Fwd)
Mk 41 VLS 48 cells (Aft)
Mk 41 VLS 128 cells (Total)
—————————
* SM-2 Block IIIB
* K-ASROC (Korean ASROC)
* Hyunmoo IIIC (similar to Tomahawk)
* 4 x 4 (16) Hae Sung (similar to Harpoon)
* 1 x 21 RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM)

1 x Dokdo class LPX
4 x KDX-III class destroyers

would be an awesome solution, but I don’t know how realistic that would be, both in terms of budget and in terms of practicality 🙂

But most of the armaments (launchers and missiles) on the FREMM (including the Italian versions) are French, so how are we going to by-pass this problem?

The French engine of the Eurocopter Tiger, alone, was enough of a problem during the ATAK tender, even though it’s effectively a Franco-German helicopter.

In fact, FREMM solution is not absolutely impossible.

FREMM project is a joint venture of Armaris (which itself is owned by DCNS) and Orizzonte Sistemi Navali, which is a joint venture between Fincantieri and Finmeccanica. So, if Turkey wants to develop a solution based on FREMM, it is very much possible to make it through a partnership with Orizzonte Sistemi Navali, without interfering with DCNS (France).

Let us not forget that Sachsen also has a twin sister: The Dutch “De Zeven Provinciën” class frigate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_class_frigate

These two frigates are almost identical in terms of the systems that are used on them (the most essential system on both ships, the “SMART-L” radar (APAR) is Dutch anyway).

For me, the Sachsen or De Zeven Provinciën class frigates are the best European solutions for the Turkish Navy and will also be highly compatible with the MEKO frigates.

FREMM is almost impossible due to the Franco-Turkish relations (which suck far more than German-Turkish relations) while the Horizon class destroyers are meaninglessly expensive.

“Aegis-based” alternatives might be the Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers of Spain or the King Sejong the Great class destroyers of South Korea, both of which can be defined as derivatives of the Arleigh Burke class destroyers of the USN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81lvaro_de_Baz%C3%A1n_class_frigate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Sejong_the_Great_class_destroyer

The TF-100 project is still in conceptual phase and no design parameter was set except being a multi-role frigate to replace the Yavuz class (MEKO 200TN Track I) and to be commissioned by 2023-2024, hence the “100” in the name denoting the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the Republic.

It has not bee decided yet whether it will be a modified MilGem design or not.

It is also still not designed whether the +4 option in the MilGem project which covers one prototype (TCG F-511 Heybeliada) and 7 ships will be diverted to TF-100 project or the latter will be held seperately.

As for the TF-2000 project, it is known that SSM (Savunma Sanayii Mustesarligi – Undersecretariat for Defense Industries) was interested in FREMM for some time, though the Fincantieri officials whom I talked to during IDEF 2007 were almost sure Turkey will not procure or co-develop a FREMM based solution.

A German based solution is -though not impossible- almost out of the table, as is the case with AIP submarine and after MilGem, corvette and FAC-based solutions. The German shipyards have lost a lot of credibility here in Turkey by their behaviour during the Type 209 project, and their efforts to undermine the MilGem project. I can summarize at least TN submarine personnel’s emotions towards the Germans by the word “hate”. So, a Sachsen based solution, if not zero, has very very little chance.

By the way, I heard that Fincantieri offered a lighter version of the 15,000t concept, but have no further details.

The Gabya Class (FFG-7) ships which are to be equipped with the Mk41 VLS+ESSM will be the last four ones. In addition, Turkey is going to procure two additional FFG-7’s from US (FFG-12 and FFG-14). It was rumored that they were going to be commissioned this summer, but don’t know the latest situation. Whether 8 or 10, the Gabya fleet will remain in service until around 2015-2020. Currently 3 Gabya class ships were modernized under GENESIS and the works on the fourth is underway. The first two modernized ships participated in a series of international exercises to test their new C&C equipment.

In terms of combat persistence I’d imagine it would demand something like an APAR-equipped Burke – TF-2000 is going to have to be really something!

Given the large amount of MEKO family frigates that are currently being used by the Turkish Navy, I’m expecting the TF-2000 to be very similar to the Sachsen class AAW frigates of the German Navy (which are also part of the MEKO family of warships designed by Blohm+Voss), or at least be partially similar to them in terms of the components and systems (if Turkey decides to design indigenous platforms rather than using the readily-available designs that are offered by Blohm+Voss.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen_class_frigate

Also, the last batch of Turkey’s MEKO frigates (MEKO 200TN II-B) were built with the Mk.41 VLS, while the previous batches will now be fitted with the Mk.41 VLS, along with 4 of the Perry class frigates of the Turkish Navy:

http://www.deagel.com/news/FMS-Turkey-Requests-MK-41-Vertical-Launch-Systems_n000004036.aspx

FMS: Turkey Requests MK 41 Vertical Launch Systems

WASHINGTON, April 8, 2008

On April 4, 2008, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Turkey of MK 41 Vertical Launch Systems as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $227 million.

The Government of Turkey has requested a possible sale of six MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS) Baseline VII tactical modules and two sets of MK 41 VLS upgrade kits to modernize two MEKO Track IIA frigates, four ex-Perry Class FFG Frigates and to upgrade two MEKO Track IIB MK-41 VLS from baseline IV to baseline VII configuration. Included with the MK 41 VLS are the ship’s fire control system upgrades to allow for Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile capability, installation and testing, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, equipment operation and maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, launch system software development and maintenance and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $227 million.

In addition, the last four of the twelve MILGEM class warships will be named the “F-100 class frigates” and will also be equipped with the Mk.41 VLS.

Therefore:

4 x TF-2000 class AAW frigates
4 x MEKO 200TN II-A/B frigates
4 x Oliver Hazard Perry frigates
4 x TF-100 (MILGEM) frigates

of the Turkish Navy will be equipped with the Mk.41 VLS.

In addition:

4 (+2) x Oliver Hazard Perry frigates will maintain the Mk.13 launcher for SM-1MR and “might” also be upgraded with the Mk.41 VLS
4 x MEKO 200TN I-A/B frigates will maintain the Sea Sparrow capability and “might” also be upgraded with the Mk.41 VLS

These platforms will be capable enough to defend a Turkish LPD, perhaps even more so than other similarly-sized fleets of the Mediterranean.

Let us also not forget that Turkey operates more submarines (14 x Type 209 submarines, 8 of them with Sub-Harpoon) than any other Mediterranean fleet.

8 x Type 209/1400 (with Sub-Harpoon)
6 x Type 209/1200

The 6 new AIP submarines (probably “Type 212” or “Type 214” by HDW, or “S80” by Navantia and Lockheed Martin, all of which are likewise capable of firing Sub-Harpoon missiles) will further enhance this major advantage, bringing the total number of submarines to 20. The Turkish Navy also decided to upgrade its six Type 209/1200 submarines.

Well, the larger model would offer alot more flexibility………..and you could of course operate F-35B’s!:diablo: