Turkey issues RfI for its new "domestic" AAW frigate

Here is a recent story in English. The pic provided is of a German F-125 class, so the writer must be assuming that the end product will resemple one? Anyway:

TF-2000 Frigate Moves Forward

ANKARA – Turkey has received responses to its January request for information from several foreign and domestic companies seeking to help build six anti-air frigates to a local design.

Turkey’s defense procurement agency, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), obtained information on directed infrared countermeasures, electric generation and distribution systems, heating-ventilating-air conditioning, integrated platform management systems, laser directed/kinetic energy weapons, main propulsion systems and the naval gun system.

Officials declined to identify the companies that responded to the SSM’s request.

The program is dubbed the TF-2000, or Turkish Frigate for the 21st Century. Officials expect the program to cost Ankara about $3 billion in today’s prices; it will be completed in 10 to 12 years. The first ship is to enter service in 2018, one defense analyst said.

The program, originally planned in the late 1990s and shelved during the 2001 economic crisis, was resuscitated in 2006 by Turkey’s top procurement body, the Defense Industry Executive Committee. The program was trimmed to six frigates from the proposed eight.

Officials now say the program has solid financing available.

The Navy’s Turkish Naval Institute is working on the design, the country’s first homegrown plan for a frigate. The program aims to bolster the Navy’s air defense and operational capabilities using mostly domestic assets.

Turkey’s Tuzla military shipyard in the country’s northwest will build the six vessels, which will be equipped with state-of-the-art anti-missile and anti-aircraft air defense missile systems as well as other weapons.

Heavy foreign involvement and a large amount of technology transfer is expected in the program.

Naval warfare helicopters and UAVs also are planned to be deployed on the TF-2000s, which will displace more than 6,000 tons.

The Turkish Navy now operates 19 frigates, including U.S. Oliver Hazard Perry- and Knox-class and German Meko-class warships. Some of the older Knox-class frigates will be retired soon.

Turkey – expected to spend slightly more than $4 billion for defense procurement in 2010 – in recent years has focused on Navy programs, particularly their local design and development wherever possible.

Other top Navy projects include joint manufacture with Germany of six modern submarines and mostly local development and production of up to 12 corvettes.

The first ship in the Milgem-type corvette program, the TCG Heybeliada, was put to sea in late 2008 and is planned to be commissioned in 2011. Milgem, as a national naval development program, is seen as a precursor of the TF-2000.

Source: http://trdefence.com/?p=135

Here’s the link (requires Acrobat plugin).

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/hizli/duyurular/projectAnnouncements/Sayfalar/2010tf2000rfi.aspx

It’s not exactly breaking news. I have been hearing for this project since at least the previous century. Now it seems to move on, though its evolution will depend directly on the evolution and lessons learnt from the designing and development of the milgem class corvette.

So this announcement is no big deal. It has happened before. It could mean everything but it could also mean nothing. Still, it seems that something is moving.

The TF-2000 project was started in late-90’s with the aim of procuring an AAW & C2 frigate. The initial number was 8. RfQ was sent to several companies in 1998 for 6 frigates with AEGIS + SM-2. Then came budget problems, 1999 Earthquake, and 2001 economic crisis. Project was shelved for several years and all concentration was focused on MilGem, which covers the local design and development of a corvette.

TF-2000 project officially re-started in 2007 and covers now 4 ships (+2 option). The project is in now conceptual design phase and it is said that it will be in the area of 6,500t – 7,000t class.

Yes probably

Ideally for the turkish navy, the F2000 would to be build “indeginously” by turkish industry

But if this “internal” program experienced too many problem, the foreign option is possible:

– French (Horizon or AAW F400 design), NO, I doubt, because the french is already in talk with greece navy for FREMM frigate….

– German (MEDO D or others design), yes, very probably the first “foreign option”

– Spanish (Alvaro de Bazan AAW frigate), possible, probably the second “foreign option”

Even though the project approach has not been decided yet, it most probably will be a local design, with external support for several subsystems (such as radar and C4ISR systemsi missiles etc)

I too give very slim chances. It could be a miracle. The Cougars are the most notable exception in french-turkish relations. The Eryx if i recall, was cancelled, after the french voted in favour of the recognition of the armenian genocide. I am pretty sure i remember there was political clash before the Turks anounced that they were defective.

Cougar’s were procured (first 20 direct, follow up 30 produced at TAI facilities) in the time of US embargo in 90’s. Operations against seperatist PKK was at maximum and there was urgent requirement for high capacity utility helicopters.

Turkey considered purchasing Mirage 2000 in early stages of Peace Onyx I F-16 production project as a supplement. Another candidate was Tornado, which almost got a contract but literally at the last minute lost due to administrative and legislative problems. Mirage offer turned down because of disagreement on offset deal, which covered extensive modernization of Konya Air Base.

France and Turkey were on the brink of signing of a kind of strategic partnership aggreement in mid-90’s. This relationship included as selection of long range precision guided missiles for F-4E’s (read SCALP) as well as modern C4ISR systems. Everything went down in late 90’s after Armenian legislation passed in French parliament.

Ah, the memoirs you just stirred… OK brother, this one is specially dedicated for you, though you probably have already seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Lcys6nYuw (It’s in Greek sorry, but the pictures speak for themselves 😎 )

Yes, i know the video. I posted it too (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1521376&postcount=241)

I remember one article of some defence magazine saying that ladders for the M2000 in Tanagra were barely high enough for the Russian pilots be climb to their cockpit! 😀

We won’t be seeing Sus in Greece for the next 4 years (and probably 8) with our PM, that’s for sure.

Back in the eighties, a Turk air force general visited France and he was granted the honour of a free flight with a Mirage 2K. Greece had just bought M2Ks, so everyone was eager to hear his thoughts. He said it was a nice bird but Turkey had by then got into the F-16 philosophy and infrastructure lines and could not possibly afford another type, though they would seriously consider it if Dassault would make a nice offer.

True.

So, that’s pretty much the only case the Turks will ever buy serious French hardware: Both the presence of a friendly government, as well a “nice offers”. While the first is not unlikely, the second is IMHO.

It just can’t work. Recall also the case with ERYX missiles.

I too give very slim chances. It could be a miracle. The Cougars are the most notable exception in french-turkish relations. The Eryx if i recall, was cancelled, after the french voted in favour of the recognition of the armenian genocide. I am pretty sure i remember there was political clash before the Turks anounced that they were defective.

It would take a miracle.

Sure it would give the… Bulgarians a big scare. 😀 Even the visit of Su27s and 30s at Tanagra had provoked unrest to the Bulgarians 😉 For a moment they thought they ‘d actually may have had to face them over the Aegean. I think to recall that there were even diplomatic protests to us and to NATO from our neighbour.

Ah, the memoirs you just stirred… OK brother, this one is specially dedicated for you, though you probably have already seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Lcys6nYuw (It’s in Greek sorry, but the pictures speak for themselves 😎 )

I agree, but in politics, “never” is a big word. It’s even bigger when there is a change in power. If France was to transform in fervent supporter of turkish entry in EU, it would be worth a frigate contract for example. Unlikely given the turkish mistrust and antipathy towards France, even with Sarkozy out of the way, but i always leave a window open in such cases.

Back in the eighties, a Turk air force general visited France and he was granted the honour of a free flight with a Mirage 2K. Greece had just bought M2Ks, so everyone was eager to hear his thoughts. He said it was a nice bird but Turkey had by then got into the F-16 philosophy and infrastructure lines and could not possibly afford another type, though they would seriously consider it if Dassault would make a nice offer.

So, that’s pretty much the only case the Turks will ever buy serious French hardware: Both the presence of a friendly government, as well a “nice offers”. While the first is not unlikely, the second is IMHO.

It just can’t work. Recall also the case with ERYX missiles.

how’s Greco-Russian relations these days? it’d be nice to see a pak-fa in HAF colors 😉 it’d give the Bulgarians a big scare!

I ‘ve replied in length about that eventuality in the main forum. Short answer: No way Greece will buy russian aircraft. And certainly not with this PM anyway! My opinion is that relations are better than most other EU countries, but have certainly lost momentum and with this PM could possibly cool further. The fate of the Burgas-Alexandroupolis pipeline will be one interesting thing to see how relations will go. Right now it faces risks, after the change of the Bulgarian (the real one) goverment, which is pro-USA. Our PM is pro-USA too, but he can’t back off from that. But if the Bulgarians “burn” it, it will cool further greek-russian relations, because that pipeline was mutually beneficial.

Sure it would give the… Bulgarians a big scare. 😀 Even the visit of Su27s and 30s at Tanagra had provoked unrest to the Bulgarians 😉 For a moment they thought they ‘d actually may have had to face them over the Aegean. I think to recall that there were even diplomatic protests to us and to NATO from our neighbour.

Anyway, even if Segolen actually rises to power, I doubt that France will ever, ever, get involved to any serious arms deal with Turkey, so many reasons for that. Which in turn indeed leaves only German and American options available. But the Turks want to design and build the ship themselves, so the foreigners’ involvement will probably be restricted to subsystems alone.

I agree, but in politics, “never” is a big word. It’s even bigger when there is a change in power. If France was to transform in fervent supporter of turkish entry in EU, it would be worth a frigate contract for example. Unlikely given the turkish mistrust and antipathy towards France, even with Sarkozy out of the way, but i always leave a window open in such cases.

Yes, he reminded us about his grandfather in his speech in the greek parliament, he seems fond of him. But his policy towards Turkey has nothing to do with sentiment. It has to do with French interests and possibly with the way he sees the future of EU. If his grandfather’s memory was so influential to his politics, he ‘d probably offer to upgrade us for free or almost free the 20 non upgraded Mirage. Instead he wants 28 mln a piece. 😀 Or if he can’t convince Dassault, he could send 20 Rafale to help us to daily interceptions. Free trainning!

His latest knickname in Greece is Salonikios as well as Sarkozidis though, and I doubt that’s a coincidence, rather it is representative of how seriously he is perceived.

Anyway, even if Segolen actually rises to power, I doubt that France will ever, ever, get involved to any serious arms deal with Turkey, so many reasons for that. Which in turn indeed leaves only German and American options available. But the Turks want to design and build the ship themselves, so the foreigners’ involvement will probably be restricted to subsystems alone.

Even so, I think they are overoptimistic, or don’t seriously expect to introduce them in service any time sooner than 15 years timeframe. They even asked information for laser based weapons, as if they’re going to fight a Klingon mothership…

how’s Greco-Russian relations these days? it’d be nice to see a pak-fa in HAF colors 😉 it’d give the Bulgarians a big scare!

As bad as it gets, there is even word that the deal for 415 BMP-3 IFVs will be canceled. Current PM is a well known american fanboy, unlike his father.

Yes, he reminded us about his grandfather in his speech in the greek parliament, he seems fond of him. But his policy towards Turkey has nothing to do with sentiment. It has to do with French interests and possibly with the way he sees the future of EU. If his grandfather’s memory was so influential to his politics, he ‘d probably offer to upgrade us for free or almost free the 20 non upgraded Mirage. Instead he wants 28 mln a piece. 😀 Or if he can’t convince Dassault, he could send 20 Rafale to help us to daily interceptions. Free trainning!

how’s Greco-Russian relations these days? it’d be nice to see a pak-fa in HAF colors 😉 it’d give the Bulgarians a big scare!

Well . . . Sarkozy’s grandfather was born in the Ottoman Empire – but when he was 21 (& living in France) his home city became part of the Greek state. Sarkozy’s great-grandfather died in Greece.

Yes, he reminded us about his grandfather in his speech in the greek parliament, he seems fond of him. But his policy towards Turkey has nothing to do with sentiment. It has to do with French interests and possibly with the way he sees the future of EU. If his grandfather’s memory was so influential to his politics, he ‘d probably offer to upgrade us for free or almost free the 20 non upgraded Mirage. Instead he wants 28 mln a piece. 😀 Or if he can’t convince Dassault, he could send 20 Rafale to help us to daily interceptions. Free trainning!

As long as Sarkozy is in power in France and as long as he maintains his not so friendly policy towards Turkey, you can forget a french frigate for Turkey. …

Well . . . Sarkozy’s grandfather was born in the Ottoman Empire – but when he was 21 (& living in France) his home city became part of the Greek state. Sarkozy’s great-grandfather died in Greece.

Both Greece and Turkey have MEKO 200 frigates 😉

As long as Sarkozy is in power in France and as long as he maintains his not so friendly policy towards Turkey, you can forget a french frigate for Turkey. It’s too important equipment. It could happen only if relations with Sarkozy changed dramatically. Or if the socialists take power in France.

Anything german or american is the obvious path.

– French (Horizon or AAW F400 design), NO, I doubt, because the french is already in talk with greece navy for FREMM frigate….

– German (MEDO D or others design), yes, very probably the first “foreign option”

Both Greece and Turkey have MEKO 200 frigates 😉

how about a german meko ship? is it an option for the turkish navy?

Yes probably

Ideally for the turkish navy, the F2000 would to be build “indeginously” by turkish industry

But if this “internal” program experienced too many problem, the foreign option is possible:

– French (Horizon or AAW F400 design), NO, I doubt, because the french is already in talk with greece navy for FREMM frigate….

– German (MEDO D or others design), yes, very probably the first “foreign option”

– Spanish (Alvaro de Bazan AAW frigate), possible, probably the second “foreign option”

how about a german meko ship? is it an option for the turkish navy?

Agreed, but I ‘m not very optimistic with the greek procurement program. I estimate that the first HN FREMM would be operational no sooner than 2022-23. If this program is actually materialised. Hopefully it will, but with current government… you never know.

Well, our PM said he wants to make us “Denmark of the south”. Denmark has 6 frigates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vessels_in_the_Danish_Navy

So, we will be more or less on target! 😀 Seriously, i don’t expect any defence procurements like those we knew anymore.

Anyway, we still don’t know the exact specifications of the FREMMs. It will be a matter of debate for years to come, I’m afraid…

I think i read somewhere (defencenet?) that we ll probably sign for the FREMM by the end of this year? Of course first the fate of Skaramanga must be agreed, because otherwise, it’s all uncertain about where they will be built.

There is very little known about new Turkis AAW ship, because it has officaly started in 2007. Last information I heard that they are working on project model. But I think the project will be similar to MILGEM corvette. Simply: designed by Navy/private design offices; first ship will be build in Navy Shipyard then remaining will be built by private shipyards.

First ship is due to delivered in 2018, according to first views. The ship will be about 6000t.

For core sensors, Navy may want AEIGS system as an option. But it may change there are European option also. But I think the AAW ship will carry at least one ASELSAN radar. Engines for the ship will be probably German origin again.

Other Turkish components: Turkish Batlle Managment System (like GENESIS); navigation/communication/identification systems, new generation ASELFLIR system, new generation EW system, Sonar suite and torpedo defence system. etc.

i would see them going for the F100 Bazan before the Arleigh Burke

I have to agree with this. They like buying American tech and the F100 is one of the best ships out there.

Any view of this futur turkish F2000 AAW destroyers
(real or fan boys draw) ?

Agreed, but I ‘m not very optimistic with the greek procurement program. I estimate that the first HN FREMM would be operational no sooner than 2022-23. If this program is actually materialised. Hopefully it will, but with current government… you never know.

Anyway, we still don’t know the exact specifications of the FREMMs. It will be a matter of debate for years to come, I’m afraid…

So this announcement is no big deal. It has happened before. It could mean everything but it could also mean nothing. Still, it seems that something is moving.

No, this time it’s for real. It’s their reply to the greek FREMMs. They can’t let it without answer.

When it says domestic are we just talking about the hull being built in Turkey and then most likely fitted out with say AEGIS system and standard and sea sparrow missiles? It would be very interesting news if it was to be a domestic in hull building and the major and majority of systems. Turkey seems to have large armed forces so maybe the development costs are an investment due to the numbers built, other applications etc.
From looking at the current Turkish fleet and it’s AAW requirement on Wiki it appears these will be interesting ships. There is certainly a requirement for more than 4 ships as the Knox class and perry class and Meko require replacement. The dates these ships were brought into service is quite recent but these are mostly used ships so will maybe not last more than 20 years. I’m not sure of the utilization of these ships and how hard worked they are so they maybe will last longer.
One big question not just relating to the Turkish navy is will the US start to sell it Burke’s. This will be an interesting development and whether Turkey would meet it’s needs with some of these i don’t know. There is not to much on the AAW used market without requiring major system upgrade so Turkey is probably as well to put these systems on new domestic hulls rather than used ones(more perry’s for example)
Does anyone consider Turkey building AAW ships to be a big jump into the unknown or more a big step in a path of development.
One last consideration is the export potential these ships could hold for Turkey. Is there any?

The truth is nobody knows the answers to these otherwise obvious questions, not even the Turks themselves. They have been overambitious with this program, since they first projected the need for those frigates back in the nineties. A major projection was as much domestic involvement and IMHO that was a significant drawback by itself. This article is I think highly relevant, eventhough it discusses another case.

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Disgracefully indeed, buying a hugely more powerful Arleigh Burke type ship would have actually been a lot cheaper than Type 45; and we could still have handed out a bit of good news to politically-important UK shipyards. South Korea’s KDX-IIIs, essentially Arleigh Burkes in locally built hulls, are estimated (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/kdx-3.htm) to cost 1.2 trillion won apiece. That’s less than half the price of a Type 45 at today’s rates, for a hugely better ship. And the Korean shipyards got lots of lovely government work on KDX-III, just as Clydeside did with Type 45.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/23/type_45_cpac_slammage/print.html

For the time being, they only seem to investigate options.