Turks/Greeks…the saga continues

Locked. No need for such old stuff to come out of their well deserved rest. 😉

When I was on holiday (1999) in Samos – Greece Turkish airplanes F16 violated the Greek space almost everyday, the funiest thing was that everytime the Turkish airplanes desapered in they territory the Greeks send out they own aircrafts, just to make the local popullation happy I thing. Personaly I thing Greece will always be in the shadow of Turks in the military terms.

j

Seems like someone is a bit chauvenistic here. 😀 Roman history a story of betrayel and military succes. I agree with the second part, but betrayel ? Actually, Rome almost never `declared` war, it has always been challenged by a foreign power, like the Chartagians, the Persians or the Macedonians. The reason why Rome became big was not imperialism. Imperialism is something which originates from the 18th century. Rome had a defence policy, I would call it.

Originally posted by Icarus
Rhodes teacher shoots tourist resort burglar

A teacher of English at a seaside holiday resort on Rhodes was arrested yesterday for shooting and wounding an Albanian national he caught trying to burgle his house.

Doesnt a man have the right to defend his own home and guests.I admit it is a little extreme but consider this that if I could pass sentence I would have the Albanian burglar dragged through the street by his Bal*s and then slung in jail just for his troubles. I just have to think back with my conversation with the English guy and think how much trouble other nationalities are making for the Greek nationals that live and work in Rhodes and Greece in general.

Just a little quote from someone in the USA I think Robin Williams said this and at the time it was quite funny and seems like it kinda fits with this story.

***We live in a world where we have the right to bears arms and the right to arm bears.***

I cant help it if I find the guy funny.

Originally posted by Icarus
Merlin, of course the THK a/c were not cleared. What business would Turkish a/c have over a Greek island? None is the answer.

Hey Icarus,

Ever heard of sarcasm. Thats what I meant by Quote**I have to wonder were they cleared by ATC. I dont think so**Unquote.

Dont like political discussions but I had something to add to this discussion but now I dont as I dont realy know much on the whole historical who came from where typed thing.

All I know is they got great sun there, good people and company. Like to work hard to please their customers and let you drink all night if you want.

What better place to be than Greece.

s

Somehwhat off topic, but since it was brought up…..

Rhodes teacher shoots tourist resort burglar

A teacher of English at a seaside holiday resort on Rhodes was arrested yesterday for shooting and wounding an Albanian national he caught trying to burgle his house.

The 36-year-old alleged burglar, whose name was not made public, was hospitalized out of danger with a shotgun wound to the groin. Another two suspected accomplices in the 4 a.m. effort to enter Emmanouil Koufalis’s house at Faliraki, some 7 km (4.5 miles) south of the island capital, through a ground-floor window, managed to escape.

Koufalis, 37, who apart from his teaching job runs a rental accommodation business next to his home, told police he had decided to take action after a spate of minor thefts over the past few days from tourists using his rooms. He bought a shotgun for this purpose and hid in the garden of his house to catch the thieves. Faliraki lacks a police station.

Koufalis will be charged on Monday.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100016_21/06/2003_31017

And I do know Demosthenes was an oppenent of Philippus, and not of Alexander.
Didn`t know Aristotle was Macedonian. Anyway, the areas of Thessalia, Achaeia and Boeitia were not democratic, I never said that. They were known as `ethnos`, countries without a rural capital. Thebai became the centre of Beoitia later though.

Demosthenese as an Athenian ruler was an opponent of ANYONE, Greek or not, who would seek to challenge Athens. That’s the point. Calling a Greek a “barbarian” was the ultimate insult.

Nevertheless, I take it with a grain of salt the utterings of modern, or ancient politicians as historical fact. Unless Clinton really is Bozo. I suggest you do the same.

To be honest. I find Roman history more interesting. Probably because I`m more inspired by the idea of a huge `imperium`. Alexanders imperium was not well organised, therefor it wouldn`t make a chance to survive. The Roman empire was well structured on the other hand.

In Alexander’s defence, the man never had time to organize his Empire after the many years it took for him to conquer it. With his death, it was fractured and each ruler ruled in a slightly different way, depending on his subjects.

Rome was the then epitome of a united (by force of arms) and long lived empire in the truest sense. Though for my liking I find Roman history as simple tails of betrayal, madness and military issues for the most part.

To each his own though…

I do not subscribe to this word “colony” when speaking of ancientr Greece. Calling modern Marseilles a “colony” for instance is wrong in the context of ancient Greece Geforce. The founders of Amphipolis happend to come from Athens (mostly….not all), but it was it’s own city of course.

Aristotle was a man born into a land called Macedonia. Of course who could say he wasn’t any more Macedonian than the Doric (or Aeolic?) speaking Macedonians? The bottom line is that Amphipolis was a city in Macedonia.

Be aware though that the Macedonian Kingdom took sides in the Pelopponesian war with their Doric brothers (the Lakonians). Of course Phillip was right to turn to a man such as Aristotle to educate his son whom he held large dreams for. Wouldn’t you?

You said Amphipolis. Well, than Aristotle was Athenian after all. Amphipolis was a colony created by Athens after the Persian War to controll the region of Macedonia and Thracia. This `apoika` was set up under the leadership of Clisthenes.

Deja Vu. 😀 😀

You alright Geforce?

Well, I didn`t fail. That`s for sure. 😀

And I do know Demosthenes was an oppenent of Philippus, and not of Alexander.
Didn`t know Aristotle was Macedonian. Anyway, the areas of Thessalia, Achaeia and Boeitia were not democratic, I never said that. They were known as `ethnos`, countries without a rural capital. Thebai became the centre of Beoitia later though.

To be honest. I find Roman history more interesting. Probably because I`m more inspired by the idea of a huge `imperium`. Alexanders imperium was not well organised, therefor it wouldn`t make a chance to survive. The Roman empire was well structured on the other hand.

Merlin, of course the THK a/c were not cleared. What business would Turkish a/c have over a Greek island? None is the answer. But Greece has lived with such actions for a long time now. Our irresponsible neighbour has done many times over what you stated, endangering civilian lives.

@WACHENR0DER, the name of the tribe escapes me but I will try to find some information on them. I don’t think they are Tajiks though. From what I remember, they were/are a very small tribe withing Afghanistan which bear some very ‘un-Afghani’ physical traits to this day.

To bring this post back to modern day Greece. I was in Rhodes in May and had a great time on holiday but before I went while searching on the internet for things to see and do I came across a report of 2 Turk F-16’s doing a low fast pass over the main runway at the airport. I have to wonder were they cleared by ATC. I dont think so. It is this kind of act that endangers the innocent public and I believe they should keep to the military arguments and target and not involve the public.

I am sure that when we were in Rhodes there were a few unauthorised flypasts.

Also while talking to an Englishman that lives in Falaraki he said that the town look something like a scene from The Deerstalker with everyone walking around with their guns slung over their shoulder during the winter.

This does not sound like a stable part of the world to me.

There are still Greek speaking peoples in modern Afghanistan (!) who claim descendance from his troops believe it or not.

You must be thinking of the Tajiks (one of the Northern Alliance members) who are also found in Tajikstan. I also heard they claim descent from Alexander’s troops but their language is basically an older form of Persian. (whether Persian and Greek share many similarities I don’t know, although I do know Lithuanian has many similarities with Greek).

The Trojan war is NOT a historical fact. It was Titus Livius who created the myth around the city of Troje, mainly because of Augustus` whish to create a national story which would relate the destruction of Troje in 1183 AD, the foundation of the city of Rome in 753 AD and the transition from monarchy to republic in 509 AD. The `Ad urbe condita` is full of historical mistakes, so we can not just use this as a fact.

I take it you mean the Roman myth of being descendants of Aeneas’ adventures across the Med? If so, you’re right, there seems to be no hard evidence to link the Romans or the Etruscans to the Trojans.

There are multiple waves of colonialism. The first one indeed started in 1200 AD, Ionians, Arcadians and Dorians moved to Asia Minor. Halicarnassus and Cnidos were Dorian cities, not Ionian.

The Dorians would have arrived somewhat later than the date you gave. Not much, but alittle later yes.

And if Alexander was considered to be a Greek, then why did Demosthenos, one of Athen`s political leaders, called him a barbarian ?

If you just took an ancient history exam, I am thinking you might fail my friend.

Demosthenese (which was a politician….ie politically motivated) called Phillip a “barbarian” and not Alexander.

Another side of the politically motivated comments would be like those of another Athenian Isocrates, which pleaded with Phillip to set up a Pan Hellenic crusade against the Persian, in stark contrast to Demosthenese’s contemtp for him.

“…How could they (the Macedonians) prove themselves more philellines with what they did so as the rest (the other Greeks) would not be occupied…”
Isocratis Panigirikos, 96
Orator, 436-338BC

“…It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race…”
Isocratis To Philippos, 127
Orator, 436-338BC

The ancient Greek political dynamic is a hard thing to grasp.

Greece was never `united`, but most of the poleis felt very related (especially after the Persian War). Even the archrivals Athens and Sparta admired one others achievements. But Macedonia was ruled by a king, not by a democratic or aristocratic regime. Macedonians were not considered as Greeks, but Philippus wanted to change that. Therefor he invited many Greeks to his palace, including Aristotle, who was appointed to educate Alexander. Strange, however, Alexander did about all the opposite things Aristotle wrote about in his `politica`.

My friend, all of Greece was not a democracy. The Thessalians for instance stood in contrast to their ‘southern’ neigbours. Democracy was not a part of ever state’s structure, and thus, of course state’s that held on to Monarchies were thought sort of ‘barbaric’ and uncivlized in nature by the others.

Similarly, again I reiterate that it was Phillip who was called a “barbarian” by Demosthenese, and not “all” Macedonians. Also, Aristotle WAS a Macedonian dear, from Amphipolis, and not “invited” by anyone.

“I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily, in peace. All mortals from now on will live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country, a country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions. I do not separate people, as many narrow minded others do, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is a barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, then you must not resolve them by taking to arms, you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I will act as your negotiator.

You must not think of God as an authoritarian ruler, but you should consider him as a common father, so that your conduct resembles the uniform behaviour of brothers who belong to the same family. For my part, I consider all, whether they be white or black, equal. And I would like you to be not only subject of my common-wealth, but also participants and partners. You should regard the Oath we have taken tonight as a Symbol of Love.”
Alexander III (the Great) – Opis (324 BC)
Pseudokallisthenis

And Alexander did not export the Greek culture to Asia.

My friend, there is a reason why the BNew Testament was written in Greek, for the period after Alexander’s conquests is known as the ‘Hellenistic age’ for the express reason that he spread Greek culture/language and even religion to the whole of the areas he conquered. There are still Greek speaking peoples in modern Afghanistan (!) who claim descendance from his troops believe it or not.

http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=alexander+spread+greek+culture&ei=UTF-8

Otherwise he would not call himself the new Persian King.

He was named Pharoah in Egypt. Such is the life of an all conquering King I guess.

Most Greeks didn`t like Alexander, because of this. Alexander had to kill many opponents who didn`t want this Persian King. Alexander felt more Persian than Greek, one of the reasons why he married a Persian, and forced his soldiers to do the same.

Alexander advocated a ‘mixing’ and ‘fusion’ of his culture (Greek) with Eastern ones (read Persian) and practiced as such. Similarly, most Greeks (read other Greeks) didn’t like whoever held hegemony over Hellas, be they Athenian, Theban or Macedonian.

Hi, well, right on. But give me some time to explain a few things.

AD means `Ante Domine` in Latin. Do you think English has a monopoly on history ? AD is the right term used in archeology and history.

The Trojan war is NOT a historical fact. It was Titus Livius who created the myth around the city of Troje, mainly because of Augustus` whish to create a national story which would relate the destruction of Troje in 1183 AD, the foundation of the city of Rome in 753 AD and the transition from monarchy to republic in 509 AD. The `Ad urbe condita` is full of historical mistakes, so we can not just use this as a fact.

There are multiple waves of colonialism. The first one indeed started in 1200 AD, Ionians, Arcadians and Dorians moved to Asia Minor. Halicarnassus and Cnidos were Dorian cities, not Ionian.

Well, the Greekness of the cities. The first Persian war (490 AD) was meant to seperate the cities of Asia Minor from Europe. Darius I thought this would probably put a halt to the chaos in the Greek cities (Ionians destroyed the city of Sardus). But after the Peloppenesian war, which Sparta won, the Persians took over most of the cities in Asia Minor. Sparta had no international ambitions, unlike Athens, so they did not give any support to these cities, mainly because it was thanks to the Persian Fleet they won the war.

And if Alexander was considered to be a Greek, then why did Demosthenos, one of Athen`s political leaders, called him a barbarian ? Greece was never `united`, but most of the poleis felt very related (especially after the Persian War). Even the archrivals Athens and Sparta admired one others achievements. But Macedonia was ruled by a king, not by a democratic or aristocratic regime. Macedonians were not considered as Greeks, but Philippus wanted to change that. Therefor he invited many Greeks to his palace, including Aristotle, who was appointed to educate Alexander. Strange, however, Alexander did about all the opposite things Aristotle wrote about in his `politica`.

And Alexander did not export the Greek culture to Asia. Otherwise he would not call himself the new Persian King. In fact, the Leucides ruled much like the Persians, and the Ptolemaeic dynasty looked a lot like the farao`s of old `old` days. Most Greeks didn`t like Alexander, because of this. Alexander had to kill many opponents who didn`t want this Persian King. Alexander felt more Persian than Greek, one of the reasons why he married a Persian, and forced his soldiers to do the same.

And yes, the Romas conquered most of the Hellenistic states in weeks. OK, they didn`t conquer it, since Egypt only became a province after the struggle between Antonius and Octavianus. But after the `Battle of Pydna`, in 168, the Romans defeated the Macedonian King Perseus. When the Syrian King Antiochus III wanted to take over Egypt from Ptolemaeus VI, the senat gave the former a warning that if he would do that, Rome would respond `manu militari`. So he gave up his plans, which meant that in just a couple of days, Rome became the one and only superpower in the Mediterranian, making Syria, Egypt and Macedonia look weak. The Romans already defeated Carthago 40 years earlier during the second Punic War.

The reason why the Ptolemaeic dynasty was able to rule for another 150 years was very simple. Rome had no ambitions to colonise it at that time, but the real decissions were already made in Rome, and not in Alexandria. This explains why Cleopatra wanted to save her kingdom through a relationship, first with Caeser, later with Antonius. When August became emperor, he installed the `provincia Aegypta`.

greeks

i have lived with greek people on the island of rodos, and i would like to put one or two things in order,
the majority of rodian greeks hate the turkish people, mind you they hate everybody , the only thing they love is money.
last year i witnessed several incursion into greek airspace by turkish f16,s, directly over the beach at tholos in the path of airliners taking off from paradisi, this as to be the most stupidest thing anybody can do,.
it is time somebody banged there heads together and told them to catch up with the rest of the world.
john:(

“christianity isnt exactly an exclusively european religion…..”

Yes it was, but not anymore. After the break-up of the Roman Empire in 476, Christianity and Europe meant the same. And this lastet for another 1000 years. This explains the crusades.