TV-alert, BBC Horizon today at 21:00.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

I was incredibly priveleged to be able to see the Da Vinci being constructed last year, and watched in fascination as it took shape week by week. Even though it was physically being built in front of me, the sheer sense of history I felt while standing next to it in the hangar was utterly overwhelming. To see it actually fly on the programme – even though I’d already known for some time that the flight had been sucessful – was one of the most compelling sights I’ve ever seen on a tv screen.

In a similar vein, anybody see the programme where they built Leonardo da Vinci’s glider?

I didn’t see the Pilcher prog, but it seems there was a lot more knowledge and experience applied to da Vinci’s. Having said that, considering it was 500 years ago, it appears he wasn’t a mile out and could have cracked gliding if he’d worked at it.
Met the woman that flew it a couple of weeks ago, Judy Leden, and she said it hurt!

For years, I’ve visited East Fortune, and walked nonchalantly past the Hawk.
Now I’ll look at it with a new perspective.
Whether the machine shown on Horizon is close to the original concept doesn’t really matter. What does matter, is it’s put Pilcher back in the frame

We can speculate endlessly on the ‘what ifs’ of this story, but it does seem that Pilcher was a serious contender for the big prize. It is a shame he is not more widely known (on my part, I knew the name but was unaware of how close he got), but hopefully the program has redressed the balance. Anyway, I will certainly be raising a glass on the 17th to his memory and to all the other pioneers who made it possible.:)

Originally posted by DOUGHNUT
Is the original Hawk Glider on show at East Fourtune?

It is indeed the original Hawk glider that is in the collection and on display at East Fortune. Obviously, having been damaged in the crash that killed Pilcher, and then repaired in 1909, it is not 100% Pilcher original, but it’s not a replica. I’m not sure about seeing it on display, since the main hangar at EF is being cleared soon to make space for the Concorde will will be on display for the Festival of Flight on 10 July 2004. I assume the Hawk is being moved with the rest of the contents of Hangar 4 to be displayed in, I think, Hangar 3, but it may be a few months before it will be possible to see the Hawk.

“was a triplane (as opposed to Pilcher’s quadriplane)”

The original Pilcher design which the machine in the prog was based on WAS a Triplane design,Pilcher having evolved it from the quadroplane himself,rather than being a modern elaboration.
I would agree however that they did deviate quite a bit from Pilcher’s original ideas in the other areas,and I personally doubt that he would’ve been first to achieve sustained powered flight.Would he even have survived the 3:1 descent of his machine with the huge notches in the wings??I think the powerplant is also a big issue,the engine used last night was simply too light and compact for any direct comparison to be made with the possible performance of the original mahine.
Having said all that,it was still a good programme,and it was good to see that Pilcher’s design was correct in it’s basic concept.

I don’t have the article to hand but I am sure that the Wright Brothers were using gliders during the later 1890’s. Indeed the Wright Flyer was test flown as glider, or a least a scale down version was test flown the in 1902. I do not wish to degrade Pilcher’ work and his death was most untimely, be it appears he was trying to go one step too far. For examlpe why had he not considered flying a Triplane Glider?

As for the safety consideration of the modern reproduction that is prefectly understandable, but the programme makers would have left 90% of viewers (ie the non aviation viewer) with the opinion that Pilcher could have done it if he had lived.

As I am bored I shall as two further questions

1) What has happened to the aircraft since filming has finished, and does it merit inclusion in a museum

2) Did the aircraft have a CAA approval for the two short ‘hops’ if so was a civil reg applied for. Would the CAA approve of anybody just making a model airplane bigger enought to sit in and hop/glide from one end of the garden to the other. I noticed that the flying was carried out at Cranfield and the pilot made a radio call to the tower.

DOUGHNUT

Originally posted by DOUGHNUT
I saw the programme and failed to see any similarity with the proposed Pilcher Triplane and what was actually flown for the programme.

Safety is the key word here. To build an exact replica of Pilcher’s ORIGINAL design is relatively easy. To attempt to fly such a machine straight off the drawing board would have been foolhardy in the extreme.

The guys who built the replica were able to test the concept of Pilcher’s original design, and decided that it was somewhat flawed. They also have the benefit of 100 years of powered flight to draw from.

To their credit though, they did try to stay as true to Pilcher’s previous ideas and concepts as possible. There is little point in making the programme if a group is just going to say “Well, that patently isn’t going to work, so we’ll just forget it and build our own thing” That’s not the idea; the plan (as with the excellent programme last year about the Da Vinci glider) was always to test the original concept, to see whether Pilcher’s design could have flown.

I think we’ve seen that it could, but it would have been dependent on many things; would Pilcher’s original engine have provided sufficient power? Would Pilcher have been able to maintain control of the aeroplane using his original weight shifting idea? Would Pilcher have realised that he needed to increase the wing area? Would he have been able to devise a safe and effective method of controlling the aeroplane in all three axes? My guess is that he would.

Would he have survived the learning process? I have no idea. Such lessons are hard to learn, and have a horrible propensity to cost lives.

And the final questions, would Pilcher have been able to apply the lessons he learned, and would we already have celebrated the centenary of powered flight by now; not at Kittyhawk, North Carolina, but here in England…?

Is the original Hawk Glider on show at East Fourtune? If so I think that BBC research has failed yet again by not mentioning it and including it in the programme.
I saw the programme and failed to see any similarity with the proposed Pilcher Triplane and what was actually flown for the programme. I would guess the modern engine used would have produced more power and weighted less than Pilchers, as well as major differences in wing design and control system. As has been said in the magazines recently the real sucess of the Wright Brothers was their ability to master CONTROLLED flight and to then take their unstanding forward by further testing and design improvements. They also had the foresight to record their work and have a photographer at the ready on the big day.

DOUGHNUT

Originally posted by Der
Pilcher’s Hawk glider from 1896, in which he had his fatal crash, is preserved at East Fortune.

It was repaired by the Royal Aeronautical Society in 1909 and donated to the Royal Scottish Museum and later transferred to the Museum of Flight. The Hawk is, I understand, the oldest aircraft preserved in Britain and the third oldest in the world, although I don’t know what the other two are. Presumably Lillienthal gliders?

Saw the prog and thought it was pretty good.I was surprised they didn’t mention Sir George Cayley when they were talking about earlier pioneers,but I suppose they only had 50mins to cram everything into…

Glad it’s a Horizon show, it’ll be repeated soon! Missed it due to work committments.

🙁

But did catch Victors, Vulcans & Cuba on Discovery earlier today (as usual, repeated several times throughtout the day).

🙂

That Vulcan growl always make me 😀

Thanks for the head-up Tenthije…. I would most certainly hvae missed it!…. and what an interesting programme – but buggered if I’d have sat in the replica for its maiden flight! 🙂 For me it’s why the term “seat of the pants” was invented…

Pilcher’s Hawk glider from 1896, in which he had his fatal crash, is preserved at East Fortune.

Beat me to it tenthije,I only just realised it was on.