Type 45 according to The Telegraph

T45 sea trips

Glad of the reply Jonesy, and yes it will be interesting to see how they are used. Operationally as in ‘War’ they will always be part of a group but doing the peacetime trips they will deploy on their own even to the FI just as some of the amphip units are doing now so the UK tax payer gets value for money but in a true sence you wouldn’t send Ocean to do drug ops in the WI would you when the RM need her to go to fight? The RN still has too many job’s and not the assets to do them all. The T45 is a good bit of kit and we dearly need them but a few would be nice.

best.;)

Sorry Matey but the RN has been doing it for many many years (single ship deployments) and fully operational T42’s have been doing it, been there seen that as they say and T45’s will be doing it too as it is also showing the flag which is still a big thing for not just the RN but the UK around the world.

It took a while for the RN to start dispatching 42’s on single ship patrol. Note I’m not talking about deployments to exercise with foreign navies or for glorified sales junkets – in those cases the armament aboard is next to irrelevent as these are scarcely operational deployments. What I am talking about is a singleton patrol dispatch where the lack of comprehensive, all-round, armament is detrimental. Type 45 will NOT be doing the 3 laps-round-the-FI deployment I alluded to earlier.

Why is easy!. There will not be enough of them to accomplish their primary role seamlessly until hull #’s 5/6 join the fleet anyway!. The Govt. took a HUGE gamble pulling the SHAR FA.2 on the basis that T45 was the mutts own nuts and could handle air-defence on its own – they will therefore be impressing upon 1SL the need to make damn sure that the SHAR decision doesnt come back to bite them. T45 will be doing fleet AAW, operationally, up until CVF hits the water and bloody little else…apart from flashing her bits to the Saudi’s for BAE Systems of course!.

Don’t forget T42’s did knock the stealth out of the USAF in the first Gulf War and that was using old techno stuff

The 1022 radar got a couple of hits on F-117’s that were at just the right aspect to give a return – saying that RN 42’s could defeat US stealth technology on the basis of those hits is a good dit for the lads but hardly accurate!.

I suspect the T45’s with their expected increased availablity be doing the same, lets watch and see OK. 😉

Fair one mate – all we can do is wait and see which one of us is right!. Would wager you a pint of whatever you drink on it though! 🙂

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Sorry Matey but the RN has been doing it for many many years (single ship deployments) and fully operational T42’s have been doing it, been there seen that as they say and T45’s will be doing it too as it is also showing the flag which is still a big thing for not just the RN but the UK around the world. I expect T45’s will be sent off to the far east soon as they go operational on their own. It is a good bit of kit and best shown off to those around that the RN can still go anywhere on the high seas. Don’t forget T42’s did knock the stealth out of the USAF in the first Gulf War and that was using old techno stuff, they are still very capable units but getting old as you say due to there very much over use over the years, many units have done multi back to back trips away unlike many other both RN and NATO units. I suspect the T45’s with their expected increased availablity be doing the same, lets watch and see OK. 😉

I’d be surprised, nto because of they’re high-value/tech units, which obviously would be good advertising (but no one could afford?), but because
with so few units I’d expect them to be tied up with duties relating to the Amphibous and CV force.

What you will see!

[QUOTE=Jonesy;1153292]Not a chance will we see a T45 on solo patrol unless hulls 7 and 8 do get built and its unlikely even then – any tasking other than HVU consort would be a NATO combined ops one or, perhaps, a joint deployment with a French or Yank CVSG (or a sales trip to the Gulf!!!). The T42’s are indeed being sent out on solo patrols now but thats because using their remaining fatigue lives is infinitely preferable to piling it on the 23’s when the Dukes have to be kept around longer!.

Also the last 42 sent on APT, the Southampton I think it was, even deployed without her 1022 radar fully operational. Why? – because it wasnt absolutely necessary for the tasking, she has her 996 running, a functional Mk8 forward, working light guns, a couple of RHIBs and an embarked chopper and, for the tasking, thats all thats deemed as required. No way we are going to see a T45 used in such a fashion!.

The gapping of stated taskings is criminal, no argument there, but it wont be addressed by sending state of the art AAW escorts out for three laps of the Falklands followed by a run ashore in Rio and then on to rebuild a couple of heads blocks in some orphanage in Sierra Leone before heading back to Pompey!.

Phelgan,
Sorry Matey but the RN has been doing it for many many years (single ship deployments) and fully operational T42’s have been doing it, been there seen that as they say and T45’s will be doing it too as it is also showing the flag which is still a big thing for not just the RN but the UK around the world. I expect T45’s will be sent off to the far east soon as they go operational on their own. It is a good bit of kit and best shown off to those around that the RN can still go anywhere on the high seas. Don’t forget T42’s did knock the stealth out of the USAF in the first Gulf War and that was using old techno stuff, they are still very capable units but getting old as you say due to there very much over use over the years, many units have done multi back to back trips away unlike many other both RN and NATO units. I suspect the T45’s with their expected increased availablity be doing the same, lets watch and see OK. 😉

]

The RN will of course be sending them off on there own just as they did the T42’s which have at least had an anti-ship kick with the Sea Dart. There are too many jobs and not enough hulls to go round thanks to the UK Gov not spending as they should for the security of the people. You only win through from strength not weakness so giving these ships a good alround weapon fit would be a step in thr right direction. Hulls 7 & 8 will come once the fleet gets its flat tops wait and see.:rolleyes:

Not a chance will we see a T45 on solo patrol unless hulls 7 and 8 do get built and its unlikely even then – any tasking other than HVU consort would be a NATO combined ops one or, perhaps, a joint deployment with a French or Yank CVSG (or a sales trip to the Gulf!!!). The T42’s are indeed being sent out on solo patrols now but thats because using their remaining fatigue lives is infinitely preferable to piling it on the 23’s when the Dukes have to be kept around longer!.

Also the last 42 sent on APT, the Southampton I think it was, even deployed without her 1022 radar fully operational. Why? – because it wasnt absolutely necessary for the tasking, she has her 996 running, a functional Mk8 forward, working light guns, a couple of RHIBs and an embarked chopper and, for the tasking, thats all thats deemed as required. No way we are going to see a T45 used in such a fashion!.

The gapping of stated taskings is criminal, no argument there, but it wont be addressed by sending state of the art AAW escorts out for three laps of the Falklands followed by a run ashore in Rio and then on to rebuild a couple of heads blocks in some orphanage in Sierra Leone before heading back to Pompey!.

Phelgan,

Perhaps, but the Argentinian Navy felt confident enough that a SSN wasn’t there to launch the invasion.

Dead right. In the handful of other rumblings the Argentines had made towards militarily intervening in the Falklands stretching back to the late seventies the RN had, in every event, been publically ordered to dispatch an SSN to the southern ocean to ‘monitor the Argentine Naval build up’. That was always sufficient to see the Argentines scurry back to port.

After wonderboy Nott chopped the legs out from under the RN in ’81, for no easily explicable reason, the Argentine military moves towards the Falklands were not met with the usual news of the dispatch of an SSN. The conspiracy theorists often use this as clear cut evidence that Maggie Thatcher actually wanted a conflict in the South Atlantic in order to do the wrap-in-the-flag bit and get herself re-elected and allowed the Argentines to make the first move!. A latter-day ‘I see no ships’ re-run somewhat ironically!.

The one thing the Argentines never under estimated was the RN SSN’s, what they under estimated was the British being prepared to go to war over islands that most in this country knew nothing about and cared even less about. The Argentine commander of submarines was directly asked whether his boats could counter RN SSN’s in a slightly earlier crises and his negative response was an important reason for them not risking a war at that point. Lets face it, if the government had been in a position to get a couple of companies of infantry down there in a hurry it would probably have been enough to deter the invasion as it would have signalled that we were prepared to fight.

The RN will of course be sending them off on there own just as they did the T42’s which have at least had an anti-ship kick with the Sea Dart. There are too many jobs and not enough hulls to go round thanks to the UK Gov not spending as they should for the security of the people. You only win through from strength not weakness so giving these ships a good alround weapon fit would be a step in thr right direction. Hulls 7 & 8 will come once the fleet gets its flat tops wait and see.:rolleyes:

Common misconception. Ask anyone in the Argentine Navy if they felt menaced by the presence of RN SSN’s off their coast in 82!. Now that an SSN can precisley place a 1000lb warhead anywhere across hundreds of miles of territory with scant warning the SSN, to anyone without an evolved ASW capability, is a very considerable menace.

For the side deploying the submarine its even better because the vessel doesnt even actually need to be off the target coast to make the threat. It just needs not to be seen anywhere else for a week or so!.

Perhaps, but the Argentinian Navy felt confident enough that a SSN wasn’t there to launch the invasion. Of course, she knew there wasn’t a surface vessel of note to contest the landings, but if an SSN had been there? By not being visible it had failed in the deterrent stakes anyway.

The addition of a TLAM capability would give the T45 a secondary ability in this regard, not necessarily while operating as part of a CVBG (or amphibous group) – of course given that they may never get nos 7 and 8, I don’t suppose they’ll be doing many single ship deployments.

I agree that when it comes to the shooting, the sub is a better option, but given the number of SSN the RN has/will have, a few extra TLAM-capable hulls won’t go amiss.

Another problem with the F-35B, it will be unable to carry the NSM internally, unlike the C variant which will be able to carry it internally.;)

Don’t get me started……..;)

Agreed. NSM looks very good. Almost the same range as the bigger air-breathing anti-ship/land attack missiles, but smaller, therefore able to be carried by a wider variety of platforms, in greater numbers. It might still be too heavy for Future Lynx, but if possible, I’d like to see it carried. And certainly on Merlin, Nimrod, & F-35B.

Another problem with the F-35B, it will be unable to carry the NSM internally, unlike the C variant which will be able to carry it internally.;)

It might still be too heavy for Future Lynx, but if possible, I’d like to see it carried

Agreed. Good reason to ditch FLynx in favour of NH90 NFH if you ask me!:diablo:

…
Unsuprisingly I’d be just as happy if the RN bought NSM as FASGW for the Merlin force, eventually replacing GWS60 with it fleet wide relying on that for tactical land-attack backed with near-strategic land attack from the SSN’s TLAM’s.

After all an SSN with TLAM may have an edge in the ‘menacing’ department, but, the ability for any RN escort, or any RN vessel capable of supporting Merlin ops, to put down precision land-attack fire 100km inland from a position over the horizon from shore facilities has to be seen as a huge capability augment!

Agreed. NSM looks very good. Almost the same range as the bigger air-breathing anti-ship/land attack missiles, but smaller, therefore able to be carried by a wider variety of platforms, in greater numbers. It might still be too heavy for Future Lynx, but if possible, I’d like to see it carried. And certainly on Merlin, Nimrod, & F-35B.

but a submarine doesn’t stand off your “enemies” coast being menancing by being there, where a surface ship can;

Common misconception. Ask anyone in the Argentine Navy if they felt menaced by the presence of RN SSN’s off their coast in 82!. Now that an SSN can precisley place a 1000lb warhead anywhere across hundreds of miles of territory with scant warning the SSN, to anyone without an evolved ASW capability, is a very considerable menace.

For the side deploying the submarine its even better because the vessel doesnt even actually need to be off the target coast to make the threat. It just needs not to be seen anywhere else for a week or so!.

For weight-of-fire reasons and, as one of the few secondary-missions that does not absolutely demand the vessel leaves consort station on its primary charges, the inclusion of stand-off land-attack on the Darings does make some kind of sense. That it can be a low priority inclusion is unquestionable though.

Unsuprisingly I’d be just as happy if the RN bought NSM as FASGW for the Merlin force, eventually replacing GWS60 with it fleet wide relying on that for tactical land-attack backed with near-strategic land attack from the SSN’s TLAM’s.

After all an SSN with TLAM may have an edge in the ‘menacing’ department, but, the ability for any RN escort, or any RN vessel capable of supporting Merlin ops, to put down precision land-attack fire 100km inland from a position over the horizon from shore facilities has to be seen as a huge capability augment!

Yes certainly the best solution considering the limited pot of money, anyway don’t forget the Type22 and 23 which all carry Harpoon.

Personally I’d have harpoon at the bottom of the list, given as you say the ability of the Type 22’s and 23’s and of course the CVF’s. It will have some anti-ship capability anyway with the helo and gun.

I’d rather see:
the second VLS with extra AAM – give it more of what it is desgined for, but if the launcher can accomodate Tomahawk/Storm Shadow as well, so much the better;
TLAM – would be replicating the T and Astute classes to a degree, but a submarine doesn’t stand off your “enemies” coast being menancing by being there, where a surface ship can;

Yes certainly the best solution considering the limited pot of money, anyway don’t forget the Type22 and 23 which all carry Harpoon.

Fitted for but not with is not an idea I especially like but when there is only so much money in the pot it is probably the least bad compromise IMO. The RN are getting a superb AAW destroyer with good growth potential, a ship fully capable of filling it’s primary role of AAW at the expense of secondary land attack and ASuW capabilities seems preferable to cutting corners on her AAW systems to free up funds for other roles or even bigger cuts in hull numbers. But that’s just my view, I know others differ.

Indeed, certainly a better than not having it or not capable in its primary role, but my fear is always that the fitting of these systems will only come after their defecit has been shown up through some serious occurance.

Having said that, they are (I think) getting the sonar, which was initially going to be added post-build, so mayeb tehre is hope:)

Fitted for but not with is not an idea I especially like but when there is only so much money in the pot it is probably the least bad compromise IMO. The RN are getting a superb AAW destroyer with good growth potential, a ship fully capable of filling it’s primary role of AAW at the expense of secondary land attack and ASuW capabilities seems preferable to cutting corners on her AAW systems to free up funds for other roles or even bigger cuts in hull numbers. But that’s just my view, I know others differ.

SM-3 is not something the RN wants.

Okay

Why are you talking about VLS-Harpoon? It doesn’t need to be – the quad-launchers are fine.

Well one of the design briefs was to reduce radar signature, and one way to achieve this is to reduce deck clutter (or hide it). Thought that a couple of quad-launchers might somewhat “ruin the lines”:)

Also would you not remove the need for the dreaded “fitted for not with” if it was compatible with the VLS?

Which Mk41 would be required for SM-3?

SM-3 is not something the RN wants.

Has harpoon ever been modified for VLS?

Why are you talking about VLS-Harpoon? It doesn’t need to be – the quad-launchers are fine.

Turbina is right on Harpoon – it can be fitted fairly easily as the difficult wiring, etc has apparently already be done/will be completed prior to commissioning.

The comments about Tomohawk are strange. Maybe refering to the potential for an addition rather than knowing it will definitely be added.

I thought it was an option considered along with the BMD role evaluation, but the decision had been taken not to pursue it at this stage. The hull supposedly has space for an additional 16-cell VLS launcher – I think earlier iterations had this fitted from the off – another FNW 😡 (ForNotWith). I’d assume the space is sufficient for the Tomahawk launchers (why evaluate the option in the first place).

Which Mk41 would be required for SM-3?
Has harpoon ever been modified for VLS?