U.S.A Second Amendment re-think

Ah thats ok then once they are over eighteen who cares!

Whats a myth then?? Govt figures find no relation between gun ownership and suicide ? Or that its not that unusual for people to shoot themselves /members of their families?

Really do you have any figures to prove that people who use a gun for suicide would use another method ? That seems incredibly hard to prove

If guns caused more suicides, then the rate of suicide would be lower in area where guns are prohibited. Chicago & New York for instance. That isn’t the case.

Today’s scary statistics

The slaughter of children by gunfire in the United States is 25 times the rate of the 20 next largest industrial countries in the world combined.

Moggy

US figures for *children* include anyone up to the age of 21. That somewhat skews the result.

That’s actually a complete myth. The govt figures don’t even come close to suggesting that.

The Arthur Kellermann study on the role of the firearm in domestic incident published in the New England Journal of Medicine, found that for each homicide that was committed in self-defense(sic) in the home, there were 37 suicides, 1.3 accidental deaths, and 4.6 criminal homicides.

What do the ‘Government figures’ suggest?

Moggy

Whats a myth then?? Govt figures find no relation between gun ownership and suicide ? Or that its not that unusual for people to shoot themselves /members of their families?

Really do you have any figures to prove that people who use a gun for suicide would use another method ? That seems incredibly hard to prove

Lincoln – I think your confusing democracy with the lobbying power of the corporations! There is money to be made from guns hence why gun legislation is incredibly hard to get through.

Quite why the mum of the shooter in this case needed an M4 and two pistols is probably beyond most people ! However when the second amendment was written America was still quite unstable -times have decidedly changed but the right to bear arms hasn’t been ammended and the paranoia about federal control is very much alive!

Really ?Gun suicide or even familly murder isn’t that common then?

That’s not what I said. & access to guns doesn’t change the suicide numbers, just the method.

I had myself, as I used to go around schools, to demonstrate gun safety, several lethal weapons, these included an over and under 12 gauge, a side by side, same gauge, a Ruger Section 1 Firearm, and a WW2 303, all of which were in fine working order. They were kept in a very heavy steel cabinet, the door of which had 2 deadlocks fitted, the ammo was also in the cabinet, which had 3 more compartments inside, the doors of which also had deadlocks on them.
The keys to the cabinet were all kept in a safe with a combination lock, the combination of which non of my family knew.Both gun safe and key safe were bolted into the concrete floor in a room of the house. Also, all windows and doors were alarmed, and night time P.I.Rs were fitted.All this, when I was a Police Officer.

Not a slight on you, but the local range I use has a separate area for cops to do shooting as the owner doesn’t want any of his civvie customers getting shot by cops. Look at what happened in NY a while back, guy shot his boss, cops show up, shot him dead & manage to shoot another 10 people…

I would like to hear from a Forum member from the U.S.A. to explain just what obtaining any lethal weapons involves.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Passing your driving test is usually sufficient.

It’s a very valid point. I don’t feel the need to keep an automatic weapon in my home.

Automatic weapons were outlawed in the US in 1934

I think some American people have just got the President ” Pissed Off ”

I belive that certain individuals are about to get their toys taken off them .

Hopefully before they have a hissy fit & start quoting ” The consitution ” & throw their guns out of the Pram !!

50% of the worlds guns are owned bt US Citizens …WTF is that all about ???

There are 300million privatly owned firearms in the US…What the F. is that all about ??

94,388 people have already been shot in the USA this year !!!!

Time for Change !!!!

In that case I suggest you emigrate here & do something about it. Incidently, Obama had the total lack of class & respect & turned the memorial service into a campaign speech….

Really ?Gun suicide or even familly murder isn’t that common then?

Exactly! Statistically, if you own a gun in the US, the person most likely to be shot with it is yourself or a member of your family.

That’s actually a complete myth. The govt figures don’t even come close to suggesting that.

Hmmm, So much for democracy :rolleyes:

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Linc, I’m afraid our cousins have painted themselves into a corner.

There are millions of uncontrolled weapons in the US, so the NRA can take the platform with “Laws only take guns from the good guys, not the bad guys” (for which there is a certain amount of truth.) and allow the poor souls to convince themselves that they are safer with a gun in the house than not.

The fact that a significant proportion of people are killed by their family, who would not die if there wasn’t a gun readily to hand in the home, is conveniently glossed over.

The Republican party gets massive financial support from the NRA. They are the turkeys who cannot possibly vote for Christmas. And they control the Senate

Moggy

Moggy, The more this thread is disected, the more frightning it gets, surely, as President, Obama, “Should” be able to overule or overhaul the 2nd,?.or has it just become a way of life and perfectly acceptable, as the norm?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

As you pointed out, each state is different. Some states, such as California, are far more restrictive than others. I’ve never seen a listed maximum number of weapons that someone can own, though I’ve only lived in a fraction of the 50 states. I’d have to do some research to see if that exists anywhere.

As for the requirements one must meet to legally own a gun, again that depends on the state in which you live. I personally own several firearms, and since I’m in the military, I was asked for a copy of my current orders. The dealer kept these on file. A background check was also performed, and then I was allowed to purchase the weapon in question. I believe that if I was a civilian things would’ve been a bit different, but I’ve never done the research to see what all would be entailed.

Not entirely what you were looking for, but that’s just my limited experience.

Today’s scary statistics

The slaughter of children by gunfire in the United States is 25 times the rate of the 20 next largest industrial countries in the world combined.

More than a million Americans deprived of their right to breathe by gunfire since Kennedy and Luther King were killed.

But, as we never tire of saying – nothing to do with us. We can only stand back in disbelief and watch how effectively the NRA lobbying prevents action that anyone with a braincell can see might just be worth trying

Moggy

I think anyone that wants to be armed for defense should have the ability to do so, as long as they are not a crackpot of some sort. To put it simply, I believe we all have personal choice, and it is not correct for me to place my beliefs on another, or vice versa.

People can become ‘crackpots’ in the twinkling of an eye. It can take no more than a fleeting moment for a completely rational individual to become deranged, to act totally out of character, to snap, use whatever terminology you’re most comfortable with. Had the semi automatic weapons not been in front of him those people would have been alive now.

You say, eloquently and succintly, that…..

I believe we all have personal choice, and it is not correct for me to place my beliefs on another, or vice versa.

But what about the inalienable rights of the twenty six people who died? Seems that those rights come secondary at best to the consideration of the Second Amendment.

Regarding that Second Amendment you again write eloquently that…..

What many people do not understand across the pond, let alone in this very country, is that the 2nd amendment was put in place not just to form a well regulated militia, or to allow people to carry firearms and defend themselves, it was also designed to be the last and final check against a government that no longer served at the will of the people. This is the fundamental, very basic reason this clause was put in the Bill of Rights. The founding fathers (Well most of them, there’s always a few plants here and there) thoroughly detested and did not trust government. We have come a long way as a nation since then, and have seen the size, scope and power of the Federal Government increase exponentially.

So exactly how does that work? How and by whom is it decided that the Government are no longer reflecting the will of the people? Who then decides that it is time to take up arms against your elected Government? America prides itself on being a Democracy, yet enshrined in its own laws is the right of the people to overthrow their elected Government by force of arms.

And what happened this weekend? Twenty little kids, and by all accounts some very brave school staff, found themselves laid out on mortuary slabs. The easy availability of both legal and illegal firearms is THE central factor in all of this.

In a Country where all men are allegedly created equal, why are the rights of a citizen to bear arms considered more important than the rights of twenty kids to have the expectation of not being murdered in a place where they are being nurtured and educated?

Regards,

kev35

Chuck1981.

Well, I certainly got my 5 bucks worth:) I am now enlightened regarding your States Legislation, and again, many thanks.
I still think however, and may I state this is just MY opinion, yes, I agree that in your Country if the Law of the land states you may have, and carry, god forbid, firearms in the street, then so be it.but still state, far too few folks have far more weapons than they need. and also the fact that weapons can change hands so easily.
I was pulled over in a car I was driving, in Flagstaff AZ, 2 MPH over the limit, as the Officer approached me he put his hand on his gun holder and pulled the strap.
I was dressed in a “T” shirt and shorts, I held my arms out and turned around so he could see I was unarmed. I was told to assume the position,I told him to take my wallet from my back pocket where he would find my Warrant Card proving I was a Brit Cop.Didn’t do much good, as he issued me with a ticket for exceeding the limit, fair cop as we say here in the U.K. I broke the Law, I paid for it, however his aggressive manner, and the fact he was prepared to draw his gun, when he could obviously see I was unarmed, was quite disturbing.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

It’s no problem at all Lincoln 7, I actually have the day off but it seems that your weather over there has decided to stop right over my area and I’ve been in the soup all day 😀 So what better way to spend it, other than cleaning clothes and cooking?

I will just go point by point:

1.Section 1 Firearms : We do not differentiate between 7.62 or 22. One reason is, and this is where I get into arguments all the time with sportsmen, is that they will say who needs an assault/black rifle? I ask them what caliber they use to hunt, and a very popular cartridge is the 30-06 of M1 Garand fame from WWII. Again, it’s the slippery slope theory, but it’s been proven right time and time again over here. If you were asking about a security system, such as a safe? There is no law requiring any such device, but most responsible owners have them locked up for safety, let alone loosing them in a fire.

2. Police: We (well a lot of us) would never allow cursory inspections of our homes, to be blunt. And not just because of firearms, but because we don’t believe in the Police being able to do whatever they want without a court order, and anyone that would try to pass this by the use of legislation would have a very hard time. This would totally destroy the 4th ammendment (Illegal Search and Seizure). Again, this is another lengthy discussion by itself.

3. Person to Person sales: If two people want to transfer the firearm with paperwork, they can go to a licensed dealer, pay a fee and have the paperwork done. One thing to remember; there is not supposed to be a national/state/local database of all firearms in this country, although reports are coming out that this isn’t exactly true. Therefore paperwork should be “useless”. But yes, otherwise, those firearms are “lost”. We have a saying that it was such a shame, but all of my gold and firearms were lost in a tragic boating accident.

4. Prohibited Firearms: While there aren’t any “prohibited” firearms, fully automatic and explosive devices are tightly controlled. As an individual, if I want to pay a “tax” (Ironically enough, this is how they “banned” certain classes of firearms, they did not make them illegal, just very expensive to own/buy/sell). You have to have a special license on top of the tax, and following the 1986 machine gun law no one except for Law Enforcement/Gvt etc etc can own, buy or sell a fully automatic firearm and other such devices made from 1986 and afterwards. But what we call “pre-ban” or “pre 86′ ” are legal to own and operate, provided you have your papers in order.

5. Carry License: This gets tricky as the states define these laws and not the Federal Government. However, here in Pennsylvania, I can go to the local courthouse, fill out some paperwork, and expect to see the concealed carry permit within a few weeks, the waiting period is not long. They will of course do a background check. However, Pennsylvania is also what we call an Open Carry State. This means that I can walk around carrying my defensive handgun (or in reality anything else) as long as it is visible. This also gets tricky, for we have two counties at opposite corners of the state that hold our two largest cities (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) that have issues with the inner city violence I previously mentioned. So, even though State Law says one thing, these two counties try to supersede state law, although their cases have been thrown out of State Court.

One thing to remember, and one thing I try to teach people about over here even, is that originally the United States was supposed to be more like the European Union. Each “State” was to have most of the control in it’s hands, while the Federal Government was to be the “mediator” between states and obviously form a single foreign policy. It is much more complicated than that, but I am researching and learning daily as this is not taught anymore. Originally, there was not supposed to be a strong central government, but that was thrown out of the window during the Civil War and we haven’t looked back since, which in my eyes, is a problem.

I also want to point out that I am no expert on any of this, but I try to learn as much as I can and at least have a decent understanding of it and any other subject I talk about.

CHUCK 1981. I guess you have read my threads, just a couple of questions.
What security of weapons is placed on the owners of Firearms, be it hand guns or What we Call Section 1 Firearms, to put it simply, a weapon that fires projectiles such as the 762 projectile or a smaller, point 22 rimfire ?.

Do the Police, as we do over here, visit folks who have weapons, and check if they still have them,what security they have,for such weapons, if the owner has sold their weapon on by a mere handshake, is any documentation made available by the seller to the purchaser, or do they “Get lost”.
We are not, as an individual allowed by Law to own a PROHIBITED weapon, ie, an RPG, or a fully automatic weapon. Only a Firearms dealer may have the right to purchase such weapons, and then only to another dealer, or to a dealer overseas, it’s a very complicated procedure.
However, it seems that obtaining any firearm on your side of the pond is easier than it is here in the U.K.
I have heard, that a special “Rights to carry in public”, a handgun, a special licence is needed?.
Just a few thing I would like to know if it’s not too much trouble, and very many thanks for taking the time and trouble to put you side to us Brits on the Forum.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

I agree, I don’t envy any of us in this country when we have a political class that in all reality does not care about us at all, but then again, we have the government people have voted in. However, I am supposed to be living in a Republic, and not a Democracy, but as usual, I am getting off subject.

I would also like to say that while this massacre is obviously terrible, it also makes great news headlines. Did you hear about the gunmen that stopped his killing spree while in another “No Gun Zone” when someone, breaking the law by carrying defensively, simply unholstered his weapon and the gunmen then turned the firearm on himself and took his own life? Most haven’t, it would not fit in with the agenda. Most of these “crazies” are just smart enough to understand, if you want to go on a killing spree, you are better off doing it where you believe no one will be able to fight back. We don’t hear of to many people walking into a police station looking for a fight, do we?

While it is easy to say “We need to ban all of these terrible firearms”, we are really not, as a society, getting to the root of the problem. Most of these mass shootings are being committed by young, white males who are outcast of society. Why are they? What kind of medications are they on? I do not know how it is across the pond, but doctors here in the states like to hand out anti-depressants and other mind altering psychiatric drugs like candy. While there is a time and place for these medications, I believe they are often over prescribed, since “we” as Americans would rather take a pill to fix all of our ills rather than get to the bottom of the issue.

Again, most of the murders, a disproportionate number based on population, are of young, black males in inner cities. Why should I, someone who lives within 100 miles of the inner cities of Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington DC, give up my rights because of a bunch of gang bangers? I could say a solution to that problem would be to shoot on sight within the borders of the cities, but, that would not be rational, would it? I want to get to the bottom of these problems without infringing on anyone else’s rights. But since politicians are more interested in getting reelected, and any discussion of race in this country will get you immediately branded a racist, nothing ever changes.

That is what is so shockingly sad and disturbing. We have the answers in front of our faces, but no one is willing to tackle and talk about these tough issues because it is not politically expedient.

And finally, yes, there are well over 300 million firearms in this country and growing. But, and this is pretty easy to figure out, how many of those firearms are used maliciously? The percentage is very low.

Great conversation gents, hopefully I can help anyone out with any further questions/ideas.