U.S. Marine Corps.

U.S. Congress Passes 2012 Defense Authorization; Cuts Likely for 2013

In mid-December the U.S. Congress authorized $662 billion in defense spending for fiscal 2012, trimming $27 billion from President Obama’s request in probably the last budget before deeper, more painful cuts are required by the Budget Control Act passed in August.

#45

Indiaecho

Apart from the fact that the armed forces of the allies are not trained for ‘hearts and minds’ the Afghan people are not about to upset the Taliban by takng sides against them. At best you can describe the Afghani stance as one of benevolent neutrality. Why? Its simple. When the allies leave, it will be the Afghani people dealing with the Taliban who are also Afghan. Can you imagine the scores that will be settled should the Afghan man in the street have been seen to be sucking up to the allies ?

No. The Afghans are sitting on the fence and given the retribution capacity for which the Taliban are noted, I don’t blame them. Neither side really wants the allies there and we should get out. They’ll very quickly revert to the Stone Age and that is where they belong.

John Green

Their actions are being condemned from all levels. This is what their boss said.

Marine General John Allen, the top US and Nato commander in Afghanistan, said: “These actions are in direct opposition to everything the military stands for. Such acts in no way reflect the high moral standards and values we expect of our armed forces on a daily basis.”

If he thinks it’s unacceptable behaviour, that’s good enough for me.

but it realy does depend on the intent of the words !!

is it what he actualy thinks ?? or more likeley is it what he has been told he has to say ???

Having been out of this discussion so far, I’m happy to add my condemnation to what the Marines did.

We are supposed to be better than the Taliban – the marine’s action shows that at least some of our guys seem keen to stoop to their level.

And the idea that the ‘hearts and minds’ campaign is mere rhetoric and not part of a soldier’s brief I find particularly worrying. The hearts and minds campaign isn’t about a direct military defeat of the Taliban, but is about winning the hearts and minds of the average Afghan so that that are at least neutral towards the Taliban, rather than active supporters.

Don’t forget, the Taliban are doing the same toward those same people, and if they win their support it will make things much harder for our guys.

This isn’t a war that is going to be won shooting and bombing everything. It is only going to be won when the Taliban lose the support that they enjoy from the ordinary Afghan people, hence the importance of trying to win over the average guy in the street.

The role of the military in this war has changed from that of conflicts in the past. Our people need to realise that, to avoid handing the Taliban a propoganda victory like this has and making things harder for our troops.

Read what they are saying on ARRSE

http://www.arrse.co.uk/us/175562-afghan-dead-desecration.html

Those who are spellig,Gramer or badlangwige nazi”’s look away now.

Sadly and all rather predictably you’ve resorted to insult and ridicule to try and prove your point. A normal discussion would , I guess, have been too much to hope for. I’ll leave this discussion to you and your military chums. I’d rather stick with the moral high ground.

One point though, this forum is very definitely not a reflection of world opinion. This particular discussion is clear proof of that.

#32

I really don’t know from where you get this concept of ‘hearts and minds’. This is empty rhetoric employed by failed politicians looking for an initiative.

I can assure you that our Taliban opponents buoyed as they are by their religious fervour will never be swayed by the empty philosophy of so called humanitarian considerations. They’ll laugh in your face.

John Green

#35

Where’s the universal condemnation? Not on these Forums that’s for sure. There appear to be only you and one other person on this Forum who ‘universally condemns’. Everyone that I’ve talked to has little or no opinion on the matter.

I repeat. Soldiers are not taught ‘hearts and minds’. It is no part of their brief. This kind of wishful thinking comes from woolly minded liberals who know nothing about the military or its methods. I do not believe in moral equivalence but let me run this one by you.

When any Afghani terrorist/freedom fighter/Taliban warrior (they’re interchangeable descriptions) captures one of our Allied soldiers alive, they are first tortured then killed and their private parts are removed and either stuffed or sewn into their mouths. This is a standard treatment.

So, urinating on Taliban killed in battle doesn’t seem that extreme does it ?

If you and others feel so strongly about this matter, my advice is to brush up on your social worker credentials (thanks to our socialist indoctrinated education systerm, degrees are easy peasy) and treat the Taliban to your new found expertise. In other words put your hand wringing commitment to good use. I wonder how long you’ll last?

John Green

I’m sorry, it isn’t your post, it’s spitfireman’s post. We must have posted together.

Which bit are you finding difficult?

Eh? What are you on about? You’ll have to explain that one….if you can.

Trying to win a ‘hearts and minds’ campaign and your soldiers are filming themselves pissing on dead bodies ! Hardly the image you want of your professional soldiers -most normal people are disgusted by it!

They have served as useful Taliban recruiters….

…… you’ve joined?:eek:

This thread going to get a whole lot quieter.:D

I don’t think I’m missing the point at all. There was pretty much universal condemnation of the Marines action. The reason there was universal condemnation is that their actions are unacceptable. Their commander thinks so, and so does almost everyone else.

In this particular campaign occupying the moral high ground is very important considering what has gone before. The soldiers on the ground have a duty to make sure that the moral high ground does not fall into enemy hands and this escapade has let the enemy gain yet another foothold. Well done those marines. They have served as useful Taliban recruiters and therefore extended the war and taking that to its logical conclusion, may well cost a few of of their comrades their lives.

#31

Spitfireman

I’ll put a pair of gloves on – that’ll do the trick !

John Green

#32

Regardless of who or where the eneny is, don’t hand them any ammunition, they’ll find enough of their own.

You are probably deliberately missing the point. John Allen should neither condone nor condemn. He should keep his mouth shut. Part of his job is to at all times support his soldiers and remind them always to aim straight !

Permit me to pre-empt you. There are circumstances so reprehensible that when the armed forces are implicated they should be brought to account. This action of the US Marines is not one of them.

John Green

Why cannot he be seen to condone this behaviour? If it is as some have said, something that soldiers have done or have always done or is somehow acceptable within a war situation, why not say so? The reason he cannot be seen to condone it is because it actually is unacceptable.

Taking the moral high ground is, I think, a good thing.

….JG, you type faster than me!:(:D

If he thinks it’s unacceptable behaviour, that’s good enough for me.

What he says and what he thinks may be opposite.

Ever seen the film Mars Attacks!?

He cannot be seen to condone this behaviour, however , they are his boys.

Baz

#28

He’s got to say that. What else can he say ? He has to be seen to occupy the moral high ground. I’ve no doubt that he would like to say something very different but he knows that the political Left would metaphorically try to drag his guts thru’ his backside.

John Green