UK's new Tempest fighter !

France? Why France? This is Tempest we’re discussing. France isn’t involved: it’s got Germany & Spain to sign up to another planned aircraft. Leonardo (Italian-based with a big UK operation) does rather good IRST stuff.

France is not involved but if a euro zone company get involved than France will likely get involved. its all about centralized funding and research. in short term it wont matter but going forward no company in eurozone will want to be outside.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/von-der-leyen-assigns-defence-challenge-to-france/
[B]Von der Leyen assigns defence challenge to France

[/B]
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/paris-air-show/2019/06/19/us-officials-threaten-retribution-for-european-unions-restrictions-on-defense-fund/
As we read the language right now, even European-based subsidiaries of U.S. corporations, with European facilities and European employees, would not be allowed to participate with intellectual property exchange

BAE Systems—the leading member of the Team Tempest consortium, which includes Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce—has begun looking at new manufacturing techniques and technology that will not only apply to work on Tempest but potentially also to existing programs such as the Eurofighter Typhoon and Lockheed Martin F-35 as well.

Current manufacturing processes, such as drilling 150,000 holes in and around the fuselage and wings of the BAE Systems Hawk jet trainer or the Typhoon’s moving production line, are too slow for what is envisaged for Tempest, said Andrew Schofield, BAE’s director of manufacturing and materials, speaking earlier in August.

He said future production methods will need to be leaner and more productive.

“When you take the length of time from concept [to] bringing Typhoon [into] service, we are looking to halve that time across the whole organization,” said Schofield.

https://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/bae-envisioning-future-factory-tempest (needs registration to read)

Encouraging to read. Sticking things together more competitively might make the difference between the project going ahead or folding.

France will be in charge of the infrared systems, Japan will be in charge of the electronics. So which European country would be the best at making good aircraft engines that offer good ranges and speed?

France? Why France? This is Tempest we’re discussing. France isn’t involved: it’s got Germany & Spain to sign up to another planned aircraft. Leonardo (Italian-based with a big UK operation) does rather good IRST stuff.

France will be in charge of the infrared systems, Japan will be in charge of the electronics. So which European country would be the best at making good aircraft engines that offer good ranges and speed?

I think RR is the most capable in Europe but the engine would be made by a consortium alomg the lines of Eurojet, wouldn’t it?

France will be in charge of the infrared systems, Japan will be in charge of the electronics. So which European country would be the best at making good aircraft engines that offer good ranges and speed?

The document has been signed by general Falsaperna because the Lega/M5S government fell and the new one was engaged in the vote of confidence, therefore the minister was in charge only for current affairs and the new one did not yet have the confidence of the Senate but Guerini welcomed the agreement reached. The national armament director could never sign without the agreement of the new Minister moreover analysts agree that the Italian Air Force, industry and the same policy have chosen the Tempest team.

Cautionary comment from editor of defense-aerospace.com:

(EDITOR’S NOTE: The above Statement of Intent is a low-level way for Italy to collaborate on the UK’s Tempest program, and the way it was handled indicates that it does not fully meet the expectations of the British government.
First of all, it is signed not by defense ministers but by their national armament directors, which clearly shows that it is of insufficient significance to warrant ministerial involvement.
When Spain joined the French-German SCAF project, and even when Sweden reluctantly agreed to cooperate on the UK’s Tempest project, both agreements were signed by their respective defense ministers, which gave them a ministerial imprimatur that the Italian agreement sorely lacks.
As BAE’s statement at bottom makes clear, it is Italian industry that is to join the Tempest program, while the government-to-government link to this program remains very generic.
Consequently, the significance of the agreement should not be over-estimated, nor mistaken for Italy’s full commitment to joining Tempest.
It is probable that Italy consented to sign the agreement as a means of providing some form of political cover to allow Italian industry (Leonardo Italy, Avio Aero, Elettronica, MBDA Italy etc.) to participate in Tempest, of which Leonardo’s UK subsidiaries are already full members.)

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar…t-program.html

Just need Japan to join and Tempest will look like a project which could get launched with commitments to 350+ aircraft (say UK x 150 Italy x 100 Sweden x 40 Japan x 100) a few years from now.

Signed, now italy is part of the Tempest team

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/2019/09/10/italy-joins-british-tempest-programme_c2d43cb8-10f4-40a6-9a89-7bbe24ca08db.html

Italy should join the Tempest team:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-notes/dsei-2019-uk-source-optimal-number-tempest-nationa/

https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/2019/09/04/news/difesa-a-5-stelle-l-italia-aderisce-al-progetto-tempest-il-caccia-che-sostituira-eurofighter-1.37413809

God the Tempest is so ugly, it remind me of the infamous X-32

accurate artist lay out of the BAC Tempesto
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Don’t think of it as Sweden joining Tempest, think of it more as Sweden is considering joining Tempest and how now launched a study with the UK to find out if it is possible. I mean it would have been insane for us to just jump aboard after one year, these thing takes a lot more time before they get of the ground.

News concerning Schweden

https://mobile.twitter.com/RAeSTimR/…32890693709824

Brasil ordered 36 Gripens, the FAB fields around one hundred F-5E and AMX. I have no doubt that they will order more Gripens, but how many? If SAAB enters Tempest, there’s a fine chance that the Brazilians would give a hard good look at the program.
Canada, well what can we say about Canada? The Hornet replacement program sure looks like shambles… I can see HM MOD and BAE talking to the Canadians, long shot, but…
The Middle Eastern chaps have the most pressing need in order for this program to take off, funds… BAE, RR and Leonardo have all the know how needed in order to build some decent hardware, what they don’t have, and what the UK MOD lacks is money.
India, thats a sure bet, more than certain that BAE and the MOD have already talked with the chaps.

Cheers

I think ppl should understand that system of systems implies on the shelf components made available to others. This is why (also) I wrote the above post. There won’t be a non-ITAR (real) 6th Gen fighter outside of Russia and China. Don’t crave for this. It’s only French salesmen porn.
Understanding this, you can see that India can have its own AMCA and still cooperate on Tempest (or with another contender).

I am often amazed that most ppl can understand Lego at childhood but not the dynamic of the aero industry today 😉

Saudi Arabia should be obvious.
Canada, Kuwait, Oman, Brasil, Qatar, UAE, India?

Is the time right for Canada and Brazil? They will have new fighters arriving in the 2020’s which I guess they will keep until well after 2040 which I think is the target for starting Tempest deliveries.

Yes, I overlooked India but I suspect that India will want to develop something indigenously. If India abandoned AMCA then Tempest participation would be a good idea forr India in my opinion.

Arabian peninsular countries? What could they contribute apart from funds? I’m not suggesting they could not contribute in any other way. I just don’t know what. I also recall that Saudi Arabia was going to build some of the Typhoons they ordered but in the end did not organise anything so the Typhoons they were going to build ended up being built in England.

Saudi Arabia should be obvious.
Canada, Kuwait, Oman, Brasil, Qatar, UAE, India?

Sweden, Japan, Italy and Turkey have been among the countries touted as being potential partners for a program aimed at seeing the first aircraft flying around 2035.

Mark Goldsack, the director of the UK government’s defense and security export organization, told media at the Paris Air Show recently that the British were holding discussions about joining the program with at least a dozen countries.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/07/07/sweden-to-join-british-tempest-next-gen-fighter-push/

So talking to Sweden, Japan, Italy and Turkey is no surprise but at least 8 more countries? Apart from possibly Korea I cannot think who else might be interested in joining the Tempest programme. Any ideas, anyone?

Don’t get your hopes too high. The NGF and Tempest programs could end up very competitive. The French-German-Spanish project absolutely has the better market outlook at this time. But it is disadvantaged in not having as clear of a path towards developing an engine and (perhaps most importantly) Germany is a member – and the German government tends to add in export restrictions which might make plays in the middle east and such more difficult.

I’m not sure what you are going about with ITAR. You can make armaments fully compliant with NATO mandated codes and standards and have no ITAR obligations. Saying they want a non-ITAR platform just means they won’t be able to source critical material from the US. If they can do that and still meet their deadline of the mid to late 30s then more power to them.

I was reasoning on the basis of system of system. Imagine AIrbus and Dassault managing to complete with success their ambitious projects… Then they reach to the market already saturated with foreign AWAC ECM, JSTAR SIGINT etc.. system dominated by the US, UK/Italia and Sweden. What do they do to sell their system to a country already fielding NATO compatible or non-nato systems ? Send a notification letter asking them to modify their system in one week ?

I am sorry but if Sweden get on board Tempest, this might well be the swan song of the NGF (remember that French salesmen dream of a non-ITAR aircraft, hence non-NATO – there won’t be much other system around given the cost to develop and credibly sustain it).