Ultra-Low at Airshow

Who cares if it was illegal, stupid, dangerous or a million other things.

It happened, he got away with it and no one got hurt.

stop trying to wrap people up in cotton wool that really is what makes life boring.

If we all had your attitudes would there ever have been humans in space or a land or water speed record or even how about it an air speed record.

Why dont we ban red bull from air racing and lets ban Reno from holding the annual air races. dont think that would be a popular decision. Three aircraft crashed at that show but I dont think that will stop them having a race next year. And with the spate of air accidents over the country this last few months including recent events should flying not have been banned by now. I dont think so.

Just get over yourselves and enjoy seeing a spectacle while you can. If it works then great if it doesnt then deal with it.

There’s nothing to ‘get over’ here. The only thing to ‘deal with’ is for the pilot to get used to the walls of a prison cell. Yes, risks are taken. They need to be to further the limit of human endeavour. But there was simply no need for this type of flying. If we go by your attitude, to hell with it! Let’s chuck out the rule book, show off to your egos content, and if anyone gets injured or killed at a show, hard luck. No thanks. This is one ‘spectacle’ we can do without.

What a muppet….i feel the need for a tourettes style outburst.

Well put JDK. You would have thought you worked for a hihly respected magazine or something;)

There is no real need for any of us to say much more on this subject as Skybolt has covered all the important stuff very eloquently.
But I would just say that to me the most frightening shot is the ‘Gear Down’ pass and I would say that the pilot possibly had no idea that his wingtip was so close to hitting.Because of the higher angle of attack at lower airspeeds ,the pilots perceived altitude in the flight deck (visually)might be higher than the lowest part of the aircraft,not a problem with smaller aircraft
and not a problem at higher airspeeds.
And as skybolt said it sends all the wrong signals to other (younger??) pilots.

I really really support the men and women of this country who make the rules for airshows and also general aviation safety. Thus far they have kept me and my family safe at many an airshow.

…

I always thought that rules were only there to be broken.

:rolleyes:

If we all had your attitudes would there ever have been humans in space or a land or water speed record or even how about it an air speed record.

I don’t want much from my airline pilots – a sense of self preservation that was clearly exceeded here by a desire to, as the Americans say ‘hot-dog’. Certainly TAP have gone down in my estimation.

The fundamental difference between and land- or air- (or indeed most other) record attempts is that they are a calculated risk with a clear (arguably worthwhile) objective in mind. Most critically, those taking the risk have evaluated and chosen those risks – and the don’t include the possible death or maiming of bystanders (innocent or foolish).

There are no prizes for low flying, it is not a worthwhile activity, except to a select few. Airline pilots aren’t included.

As no-one died, some argue that it’s not worth worrying about. Anyone who has studied accident theory or accident reports will know that it is all too common that some people repeat taking chances until it kills them, and often others. Some people need to be stopped from being able to take those chances, for the safety of others, as well as themselves. Again the B-52 accident case is a good example.

We are all, I’m assured, entitled to our opinions. Clearly only some are worth listening to.

Regards,

Merlin 3945,

A great post. I hope we may meet some day and I will buy the first coffee.

I agree that in this case nothing happened other than a “shock and awe” reaction from those who saw it, either at Evora or in the aviation enthusiast media such as this forum thread. My personal concern is that such behaviour is seen by the tiny lunatic fringe of airshow pilots as admirable and that TAP crew may well bask in the afterglow in comfortable retirement.

Ego’s do play a part in the psychological makeup of all of us. It is certainly true of me. We manage this side of our personality with varying success as you must agree. For a display pilot showmanship in giving a good and safe performance which thrills and entertains the crowd is one thing – totally irresponsible behaviour an unacceptable other.

Yes, we all make mistakes, deliberate or inadvertant – that is life and I have made more than my fair share over my five decades as an airshow pilot. But we MUST learn from them or be forced to do so. That force, ultimately, is from the aviation regulatory authority in the country involved. However peer group pressure is often the most effective. This thread is part of that peer group pressure.

Cheers,

Reaper 69
:dev2:

Hi Skybolt

I really really support the men and women of this country who make the rules for airshows and also general aviation safety. Thus far they have kept me and my family safe at many an airshow.

BUT

I am sick to back teeth of reading people moaning about something that is a past event and no doubt dealt with by the relevant authorities.

As I said Nothing happened and crowds do enjoy a good spectacle.

Yes I would have loved to have been around in the 30’s and 40’s to have seen the sights and heard the sounds but I wouldnt have liked to have lived then.

SNP are a joke Scotland may well be better off as an independant country but I have never voted that way at all.

I still belive in the Great in Great Britain and the United in United Kingdom.

Yes I think independance for Scotland might be a good thing but I bet your are right that the ANO is the same for us as with the rest of the country because it would still be the CAA who had control over what happens in our skies.

But there are 2 things I have never liked and that is religion and politics its just a pity that there are so many politics in something that I love and that is aviation.

I always thought that rules were only there to be broken.

Merlin 3945,

I imagine from your tag that you might have preferred to be living during WW2 at a time when specific airshow regulation did not exist. Mind you, there were no airshows then, we were all far too busy. I note also that you reside in Scotland so you must be anxious for the SNP to achieve their desire of the country becoming an independant nation. Even then I bet the SNP would have an Air Navigation Order identical to the one presently in force in the UK.

Your only remaining option is to emigrate to a country where there are no airshow regulations or sanctions that are applied to those stupid fools who choose to ignore them. Might I suggest Outer Mongolia though even there you might be disappointed.

Sorry mate, free speech is a principle I really believe in but your attitude is Neanderthal in the extreme.

Cheers,

Reaper 69
:diablo: :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: 😡

Who cares if it was illegal, stupid, dangerous or a million other things.

It happened, he got away with it and no one got hurt.

stop trying to wrap people up in cotton wool that really is what makes life boring.

If we all had your attitudes would there ever have been humans in space or a land or water speed record or even how about it an air speed record.

Why dont we ban red bull from air racing and lets ban Reno from holding the annual air races. dont think that would be a popular decision. Three aircraft crashed at that show but I dont think that will stop them having a race next year. And with the spate of air accidents over the country this last few months including recent events should flying not have been banned by now. I dont think so.

Just get over yourselves and enjoy seeing a spectacle while you can. If it works then great if it doesnt then deal with it.

“Display the aircraft, not the pilot”

A stupendous example of showing off, and lucky he was retiring, as I’m sure even the Portugese Authorities would have taken his license away.

Very low flying at a display is an art, and needs practice and skill, just as shooting an single engined ILS approach in an A310 in poor weather needs practice…(Or an autopilot!):rolleyes:

A bit over the top dont you think , He is only flying an A310 like a Spitfire would but because its much bigger plane you dont think its right and its wrong I say good on them Why is it an insult to all competent display pilots.? I dont think they could do that in a A310 or the pilot could do what they do in Spitfire’s or other warbirds plus it only looks like 4 flybys and thats it.

Did Virgin do something like this when they got there A340-600 at the Farnborough Airshow?

James

There are so many reasons for condemning this type of flying:

Unauthorised, dangerous manoeuvres such as this leave virtually no margin for error. One cannot judge ground-to-wingtip clearance from the cockpit of a large, banking airliner. The nose-up attitude of the aircraft and lack of sideways visibility available to the pilot is obvious. To think this aircraft was safe because it was not flying over the crowd is a lame excuse. Any number of people could have been killed or seriously injured.

The airliner routines seen at Farnborough are different, in that these PRACTISED, CALCULATED displays are conducted at a safe height, with escape options in the event of a system malfunction. The pilots are well versed with the slow speed capabilities of their machines because it is part of their day job during flight test.

It’s incredible that after all the accidents of past years, pilots such as this still think they are infallible.

James,

I fear at Evora there are a fair number of “hedge guests” outside the aerodrome and spectator area. Many on or near the extended centre line of the single runway. So an accident with such a large and fast aircraft would have seriously endangered third parties. It is the same everywhere.

The real art of airshow flying is to make the easy look difficult, the difficult look impossible and to leave the impossible well alone. This I have learned well over the five decades that I have been taking part in airshows.

What is that Scottish phrase – “They dinna ken, well they ken the noo…!!”

Cheers,

Reaper 69
😎

Sheesh.

Why has it only got to be Military that does low-flying

No one said that ‘only the military can do low flying’. What Rich said was:

– there is no way that sort of flying can be condoned under any context that is not military and tactical.

Simply the military are in the job of killing the enemy. This is difficult and expensive, and even in peacetime, any air force has to factor a certain loss rate to ensure they are training to an effective standard. (Or in simple for you, military crews are killed in training, and in undertaking difficult operations in war and peace – ‘tactical’.) On the other hand, the job of the airliner pilot is to get his or her passengers safely to the destination. It is not acceptable to any airline under any circumstances to have any accidents. It is bad publicity. In this case, it is unarguable that the pilot had allowed no margin for error in that bank; that would not be acceptable flying in the UK, or in any other country with reasonable safety legislation.

A bit over the top dont you think ,

No. And unlike you, Skybolt has direct, firsthand experience both behind the stick and legislating for airshow safety. (He gives an example, you’ll note, rather than jumping up and down with ill-educated excitement.) Perhaps learning from those wiser than you is an idea?

He is only flying an A310 like a Spitfire would

He’s not flying it ‘like a Spitfire’, but flying it without any margin for error. Any airline pilot who flies his airliner ‘like a Spitfire’ is being very foolish, as it’s not designed to do the same job. It’s about as smart as trying to corner a bus on a racetrack. As to Ray Hanna, he had vastly more low flying experience in high performance fighter aircraft than this experienced airline pilot. Ray pulled off the great entertainment trick of flying that looked impressive but was safe, rather than this which was impressively dangerous. To compare this pilot (an experienced senior airline pilot who would not have spent much time flying like this, and should be setting a good example for his junior colleagues) to someone of Ray’s experience is insulting to a professional airshow pilot like Ray.

I’m also impressed that none of the aircraft on the flightline were damaged by the wake or efflux; certainly I’d not be surprised by some of the owners wanting to have a physical or legal word with him or TAP.

The only saving grace in this fine example of poor airmanship is that the crash would probably have gone away from the crowd, but an airbus going in would make a big mess.

Luckier than he deserved.

They should go to jail instead

A bit over the top dont you think , He is only flying an A310 like a Spitfire would but because its much bigger plane you dont think its right and its wrong I say good on them

As you said, an insult to all competent display pilots.

Why is it an insult to all competent display pilots.? I dont think they could do that in a A310 or the pilot could do what they do in Spitfire’s or other warbirds plus it only looks like 4 flybys and thats it.

Did Virgin do something like this when they got there A340-600 at the Farnborough Airshow?

James

Low and Slow,

Comments………………… unprintable on a public forum. This TAP A310 crew were apparantly on their final trip before retiring to enjoy their pensions. They should go to jail instead. The Portuguese CAA, INAC, must take action over this blatant breach of airmanship if the reputation of their airshow regulation is not to be tarnished for good.

It does, perhaps, show the sense behind the UK DA system or, in the case of a CAT crew, being granted a carefully drafted DA exemption. There are idiots out there but draconian sanctions are possible in the UK if a pilot should be tempted by his ego to do something like this. Such a sanction has been applied here recently on a case where third parties were not put at risk. The pilot will have learned his lesson and is likely to live longer. At least I hope so.

Cheers,

Reaper 69
:diablo:

Yes, that was a bit hairy and he was close to spreading himself across the airfield, BUT was he endangering the crowd/public ?? The scary bits seem to be flying away from the crowdline. He doesn’t fly over the crowd either. I’m not sure where the bits would have gone if he had smeared it across the grass but it looks fairly clear, maybe have a look at Google earth.

I wouldn’t compare the A310 to the A320. The A320 was the worlds first production FBW airliner. The A310 is a lot older.

Can someone tell me what this thread has got to do with historic aviation?

The A310 flew past (nearly into) an old Yak….. (aeroplane, not hairy cow)

A310 design is 30 years old……

The pilot was ALMOST history…..

hmm…..;)

I know – coat, coathooks, door etc.:D

Puzzled

Can someone tell me what this thread has got to do with historic aviation?

Irresponsible, stupid, *******. I hope TAP have grounded him.

As you said, an insult to all competent display pilots.

😮 I am surprised the aircraft parked on the airfield weren’t blown about 😮
I wonder if there were any passengers onboard,more tea sir 🙂

I would say that is an insult to good display pilots, Ray Hannna always built in good safety margins and escape routes in display. There are plenty of vids of comercial aircraft doing very low level passes safely, but this one just looks plain wrong and a risk to life – never excusable

Looks like it had the bank if it had any problems, I like the fast flyby then up in the air:cool:

James