Unfortunate mishap for Classic Wings

Desist.

This thread is not helpful.

If you have any pertinent observations on this incident the place to send them is here,

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/reporting_an_accident/index.cfm

.. rather than posting speculation on this Forum

Thread closed

Moggy
Moderator

Well said ‘Max..

As Damien has said it beggars belief that some people can snipe at the way this incident was handled, anyone who has seen a fabric aeroplane burn will know that it takes a very short time for major damage and indeed total lass to accure, and i mean seconds not minutes! I would say, from the pictures as i was not there, that this was delt with extreemly efficiently. A times like this the safe evacuation of the passengers must be the first priority, saving the Aircraft the second. In this instence is woul appear that both were carried out in the best possible way.
For those suggesting that engine bay fire bottles be fitted, please pray tell me how that would have helped put out a wing fire cause by an exhaust flame on start up?!!!!!

Guys, what HP says is so true for old wooden aeroplanes. Nearly two years ago I had a share in a Jodel which caught fire. The local fire brigade took 8 minutes to arrive. 90% destroyed.

Speaking generally….

It is not uncommon for induction fires to occur in old engines, usually as a consequence of a backfire on starting or over-priming.

Thats why all aircraft must carry a fire extinguisher.

When Skysport rebuilt my Miles Falcon they installed some added fire protection in the form of a hefty extinguisher in one of the wing roots, operated by ‘a big red handle’ in the cockpit.

Old wooden planes burn fiercely.

It seems as though the guys at Duxford did a great job and thus saved an important airframe from destruction.

Hurrah!

HP

To prevent a major incident? :rolleyes:

Or perhaps to ground an entire fleet of Rapides just because of one MINOR incident.

The CAA have eyes and ears. Lets wait and see what they say in their report.

I must say this one last thing though. I would rather see a whole hangar of rare and endangered aircraft burn to the ground if it would save juxt one life.

having done some firefighting training. remove persons and any casualties from the area before tackling fire and only then if there is no sinificant danger to the operator.

Indeed not a good thing heroics if you get your fingers burnt.

AllamL/ Sorry pal I for one still admire the proffesional handling of this situation, if Vollenteer help had not the experiance of staff ,that is regrettable, but “hindsight is a wonderful thing.”

To quote others at this late hour & level on the bottle “There is a doG”.Wot say u Big Les”??

Edwin Thanks for A professioal View.
ps I am not a member of Classic Wings, I just saw some good stuff with a good result.

As somebody who has a ‘little knowledge’ of firefighting, I can only say that a large proportion of these comments are total bull$hit, no doubt added by those who like to give opinions and sound impressive! Harry Enfield’s “Self Righteous Brothers” springs to mind…..

Firefighting and evacuation should have been carried out in parallel. Not only would the damage have been reduced, but also the risk to life, of staff and passengers, would have been less severe.

AllanL, you have been watching too many Hollywood blockbuster movies! The most important thing is to save life. What good is a less damaged aeroplane, but with several passengers injured, because people were concentrating their efforts to prevent damage to the aeroplane. Get the pax out first, then fight the fire….And you’ve obviously never seen a wood and fabric aircraft catch light? Believe me, the damage to ‘HGD was MINOR, but will require some serious work to get it airworthy again.

A MINOR incident, tackled well with no harm to any persons. What more could you ask? Shame about the aeroplane, but accidents happen. Congrats to all involved, and lets get the forum back to where it should be (aeroplanes) instead of petty sniping and whinging. :rolleyes:

Guys why so much critisism over what turned out to be a minor incident.

Minor in the sense that no lives were lost and there were no injuries.

To prevent a major incident? :rolleyes:

Obviously the lives of passengers and crew come before any aircraft, but there was no need for two staff to be standing on the port side of the aircraft watching the evacuation. At least one could have been attacking the flames.

The sooner the fire is attacked the easier it is to put it out. The rate of progress of burning wood and doped surfaces is frightening to witness. Any further delay could have resulted in the total loss of the aircraft. I don’t think that was a minor incident. The initial firefighting looked anything but efficient.

Fighting fires is an un-nerving experience and is no place for learning on the job. Seconds count, and the staff need to be trained to act quickly and given practise in handling the equipment. It was some 20-30 seconds after the flames were visible to staff before the fire was tackled.

Firefighting and evacuation should have been carried out in parallel. Not only would the damage have been reduced, but also the risk to life, of staff and passengers, would have been less severe.

Scott I for one would like to associate my self with your commemts. I am shure that Classic Wings will review their Opperating Mannual and connsult with the CAA if the need for change is found by either party. The prioritys were good PAX then Aircraft.
The speed that this type of fire can spread is frightening,therefore well done crew,well done PAX u all listened to the Brief and got it right.Thank you all for a satifactory outcome.

Guys why so much critisism over what turned out to be a minor incident.

Minor in the sense that no lives were lost and there were no injuries.

While I am not an expert in aviation law I think the operators do a great job as it is and have nothing but praise for them. I flew on this aircraft in the morning and was on the first fare paying flight in the morning. I know that they had a few new people on the counter was this also true for the flight / startup line? I dont know.

One other point to be made is before fire fighting commences surely you secure ALL PASSENGERS and Pilot away from the aircraft who presumable grabs the 2 on board fire extinguishers and then only after everyone is clear starts to tackle the fire making sure he does not endanger himself.

I loved the flight in this aircraft not sure who the pilot was but he was very professional and fun at the same time. I would rather see this aircraft burnt to the ground than any harm come to him or any passengers.

Steve.

Were you on the aircraft at the time of the fire?

Or are you now a mind reader and could tell what they were thinking.

I think you will find that the passengers just wanted to get out. A they would have been instructed to do.

I will conceed with one point and that is I think that perhaps at a safe disrance from the start up there should be a dedicated fire marshall but in effect this would increase the man power required at an airshow because every single aircraft would need a fire marshall.

finally:-

TO CLASSIC WINGS which shall be emailed to them as well.

Thank you for the excellent flight I had on saturday morning. It was most enjoyable and indeed I may well fly with you again should I be visiting Duxford. I was saddened by the news that the aircraft we flew in suffered some fire damage and hope that the following repair is speedy. I can only congratulate you that the damage was minimal and that no passengers or the pilot was hurt.

Regards Scott McIntosh.

RAF practice is to have a fire extinguisher available at each aircraft for start up . The types used were CO2 and AFFF (foam) . The CO2 was essentially for engine fires. As regards Rapides – it’s usually the case that a wet start could cause a backfire and ignite the surronding structure. It’s a nice idea to have a fire bottle for each engine but the reality is that to make a wooden fabric covered aircraft totally safe you would have to replace the passengers with a massive fire bottle!

They do and all people are informed before they fly where this is located.

As Bruce says the small amount of damages shows how quickly this fire was put out.

It was a minor incident dealt with quickly and efficiently.

1. I meant engine extinguishers fitted in engine compartment and operated by pilot ,not in cabin for passenger use(as used in racing cars).

2. Also shows how quickly they burn ,and that groundcrew should be standing by with extinguishers ,and not have to run and find one.

3.I wouldn’t consider any vintage aircraft fire to be a minor incident,especially one with passengers inside it.Ask the passengers how minor it was,when they were trying to get out not knowing if they would evacuate the aircraft unscathed.

Steve

Afraid I have to agree that, from where I was standing some 200 yds away, the fire-fighting was panicky and slow. I was just taking some long shots of the Rapides and DC-3s when a sheet of flame shot out of the starboard exhausts as the engine was fired up.

My son had just asked “Is that supposed to happen?” as I took a picture of the Rapide – 17:18:14 according to my camera.

At this point the pilot is looking at the wing, but the first flames are underneath and probably out of his site.

15 seconda later I took a shot of one guy in blue polo shirt sprinting out from the fence as flames spread through the wing upper surface.

20 seconds later pax are being evacuated from the aircraft as two others in blue polos stand on the port side of the aircraft watching – presumably ready to aid the evacuation.

Only after this has happened does anyone approach the burning wing with what appeared to be one or two red foam extinguishers and one blue (dry powder?) extinguisher. The blue extinguisher was not used by the person holding it (why? it is suitable for Class A & B fires as is foam) – and the use of the foam extinguishers suggested that the operators were untrained.

I didn’t take any more pictures after the first three as I was convinced the plane was going to be destroyed.

Yes the evacuation was successful, as was the quick removal of the other Rapide from the scene.

However the fire fighting did not justify complacency; any further delay in tackling the flames would have let them get beyond the extinguishing capability of the extinguishers to hand.

The operators need to review their fire-fighting training and equipment provision before they lose an aircraft – not wait until afterwards.

The large green extinguisher bottles that are in the pictures of the fire-fighters were not at the scene until after the fire had been put out.

Was that the one that was selling flights ouuta Duxford back in about ’90-’91?

Here are e few more taken just after the fire was extinguished. In the “old days” I remember engines being started with portable extinguishers on a trolley nearby. The fire engines had to move through the many people still at the show to reach the fire.
Phil

Well done to all for there prompt action
That throws the ‘In flight BBQ idea out of the window’

In the light of that maybe onboard extinguishers should be fitted to help pilot earlier.

Steve

They do and all people are informed before they fly where this is located.

As Bruce says the small amount of damages shows how quickly this fire was put out.

It was a minor incident dealt with quickly and efficiently.

This incident was unfortunate, but a well done to the ground crew member who spotted it ,evacuated the Pax And used the onboard extinguisher to do his thing.
Also worth a mention is the fire crews were stood down to the station after the show which was when the incident occurred, though on scene PDQ .their role was more to assure all present.