By: CSheppardholedi - 31st December 2006 at 16:16
Can anyone make out the numbers on that Fieseler Storch in the background of NC900’s pic? Might be able to trace that easier??
Is that from online or a scan? If we can get just a few more pixels….I think that is my new chant….more pixels, more pixels! Unfortunately, the web gods have spoken and it is either a few high res shots or lots of low ones!
By: NC900 - 31st December 2006 at 15:32
No doubt it’s a Karas,
The skin details clearly show it.
Cheers
Olivier
By: pogno - 31st December 2006 at 14:32
Pathfinder. Its pretty definate that this is a PZL P23 Karas, the dark line on the wing tip you identify is one of the key features, its a hand hold. The others are the unusual tail skid, aileron shape and trim tab, remains of rear cockpit surround and wing root fairing.
This picture does raise some more questions though.
1. The writing on the reverse says that it is British and at Dinant. Could this be a mis spelling of Diamant which is in Poland, although why anyone would mistake it for British a/c there.
2. Did any Karas escape the German advance and head to France. Seems very unlikely and with only 750 mile range almost impossible I would think.
3. JDK says the picture he has is captioned “Unidentified Karas shot down during the September 1939 war. In the foreground is an aircrew body.” Does the cross mark where they buried the crew. if so why do it amongs the wreckage.
4. Is that evidence of a serial number on the fuselage just in front of the tail, or just burnt off paint.
By: Pathfinder - 31st December 2006 at 14:02
Thanks for all the messages !
Now I have made two better pictures, one from the tail, one from the wing area. May be is is now better to identify the a/c !?
I have also make two markings. The one can may the hole from the wing gun, the second may be a tip light ?
The notice on the baclsite from photograph is original. It was a bad mistake of myself about the location of France 😉
Wish you all a happy and lucky new year 2007 !
Regards
Nils
By: old eagle - 31st December 2006 at 08:38
I surrender to the overwhelming evidence
Well done guys
Rgds
By: Consul - 30th December 2006 at 22:33
Superb detective work pogno – looking at the evidence, I’m converted:)
By: CSheppardholedi - 30th December 2006 at 17:48
Sharp eyes. I was at first leaning to Battle, but the more I studied it, the more the bits just didn’t fit. Location of the aileron horn bit, the shape of the vertical stabilizer…wasn’t quite right. I wouldn’t have even thought to look for Polish A/C! Someone trying to sell that on E-Bay???
Here is a link to a P.23 that show the suspect bits fairly well. You can almost make out the checkerboard insignia outboard of the aileron once you have seen the placement on an unburned one!
http://home.mit.bme.hu/~tade/ac-pict/Polish-AF/Karas1.gif
Happy New Year!
By: northeagle - 30th December 2006 at 12:36
Excellent TDK and Pogno. Plainly seen in the front of the pic is only one aileron actuator and it sits central to the aileron, this damns it from being a Battle. For those still unconvinced take a look at this Battle.
Best Wishes.
Robert.
By: Arabella-Cox - 30th December 2006 at 08:57
Definitely a PZL 23 Karas.
After pogno’s excellent call, I’ve just checked our book on the type, and not only does the rear end of the fuselage match, plus the wingtip/aileron and actuator cover, the end of the wing fairing’s visible, the remains of the tailskid. On page 26 of the book is a photo of the same wreck from the other side, captioned as “Unidentified Karas shot down during the September 1939 war. In the foreground is an aircrew body.”
Well done that man! I think all belief in any credibility that the “caption” had must now have evaporated. That said, Battle seemed the only option if we were to believe “British bomber” and “Dinant” – although the wingtip shape did seem not quite right. Oddly, though, I have just located the photo of a similarly burnt out Battle and with the grave of an airman close by which is a strikingly similar image and I will try to post it here later.
By: Bager1968 - 30th December 2006 at 08:35
“Dinant is a town in France.”
Pathfinder, the Flemish would not be happy with you.
Dinant is a town in Belgium.
Tourist information about the city of Dinant in Belgium.
http://www.trabel.com/dinant/dinant.htm
By: JDK - 30th December 2006 at 00:16
Definitely a PZL 23 Karas.
After pogno’s excellent call, I’ve just checked our book on the type, and not only does the rear end of the fuselage match, plus the wingtip/aileron and actuator cover, the end of the wing fairing’s visible, the remains of the tailskid. On page 26 of the book is a photo of the same wreck from the other side, captioned as “Unidentified Karas shot down during the September 1939 war. In the foreground is an aircrew body.”
By: super sioux - 29th December 2006 at 23:40
Brewster B-339B (Buffalo)
A possible aircraft is the Brewster B-339B fighter of which Belguim had ordered 70 but only two were flyable in early 1940. I know nothing of operational use if any but one was found in 1940’s colours in Germany after surrender. The rotund shape is shewn clearly in the photo, only the linkage to the aileron not showing in the photos of Buffalo’s in RAF service I have. Comments please.
By: contrailjj - 29th December 2006 at 23:21
‘Karas’ had a tail skid.. (and a somewhat ‘robust’ fixed undercarriage that would certainly still be somewhat eveident even after a burn out like this one)
I’m inclined to go with the ‘Battle’ assesment… especially due to the shape of the fuselage at the fin.
JJ
By: bloodnok - 29th December 2006 at 23:06
Im’e pretty sure its a Polish PZL P23 Karas. All the bits fit but its certainly not British, and other than prototypes visiting France prior to WW2 wasnt involved in combat there.
does the karas have a tail wheel?
By: WebPilot - 29th December 2006 at 22:13
Im’e pretty sure its a Polish PZL P23 Karas. All the bits fit but its certainly not British, and other than prototypes visiting France prior to WW2 wasnt involved in combat there.
Certainly a good likeness. So is the photo caption contemporary, do we know?
By: pogno - 29th December 2006 at 21:59
Im’e pretty sure its a Polish PZL P23 Karas. All the bits fit but its certainly not British, and other than prototypes visiting France prior to WW2 wasnt involved in combat there.
By: G-ASEA - 29th December 2006 at 19:25
It looks like a Battle to me. But but at my i need to look at my uncles photo’s to get a better look at the skining of the fin.
By: Arabella-Cox - 29th December 2006 at 19:16
If I get a chance I will have a look later tonight, but I think I may have seen this picture before. Am convinced it is Battle. Is Lewis Deal a forum member….?? He ought to know!
By: Consul - 29th December 2006 at 19:08
I’d concur on it being a Battle, if the caption is considered to be valid. Low wing, single fin – what are the alternatives?
Compare with this shot – particularly the position of the tail wheel and the aileron actuator fairing on the upper surface of the wing just inboard from the wingtip.
http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/pictures/jpg/fairey%20battle.jpg
I did some similar comparisons with other illustrations and plans and I’m with web pilot on this one and think his references tally with it being a Battle.
By: WebPilot - 29th December 2006 at 18:21
I’d concur on it being a Battle, if the caption is considered to be valid. Low wing, single fin – what are the alternatives?
Compare with this shot – particularly the position of the tail wheel and the aileron actuator fairing on the upper surface of the wing just inboard from the wingtip.
http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/pictures/jpg/fairey%20battle.jpg
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December 28, 2006 at 9:58 pm