Unknown engine

Would the reported location of the suggested Halifax be a clue?

I strongly think so as HMS Haldon (sic) was lost off the Humber too I believe

As regards to the JCCC issue over a licence, I suspect you may be on a bit of a hiding to nothing anyway. Even if you could find a ‘landowner’ to sign a licence application, that is only the first stage and if you cannot provide satisfactory evidence as the specific identity of the aircraft (ie serial number and crew) then you won’t get a licence anyway. And even if you do provide that information, and in the unlikely event that it is verifiable by AHB, then one won’t be granted if there are human remains or explosives present. You really do have a bit of a Catch22 on your hands, especially as you do not yet have a positive identification of aircraft type except that it is pretty certainly British (RAF) operated.

There is nothing to stop you diving and looking, but interfering with the wreck and bringing items up is unlikely to be authorised, I’d say.

Would the reported location of the suggested Halifax be a clue?

Hi Kevin

Without a better idea of the location it will be very difficult to come up with a credible list of candidates for you.

The R1082/T1083 combination was being phased out towards the end of 1940, so it is likely your aircraft was lost in the period 1939-41. If it is a Sunderland then there will not be a very long list of suspects. Highly unlikely it was lost after 1941.

Your best bet to find out the ID is to find a serial number either stamped or painted on a cowling panel, or find an engine serial number – the latter can be matched with the records held at the RAF Museum.

Hi In would rather not say where it is at the moment as we are still trying to keep it quite but it is a long way out from the Lincolnshire coast does this help.
Kevin

Sorry if this reply goes on twice it seems i may have done it again
Hi All
Many thanks for all the info on PMR act, let me explain a little more.
This Aircraft was discovered by the French Navy while we were looking for the wreck of HMS Haldene given to the Free French Navy during WW2 (renamed La Commbatante, this ship took Charles De Gaulle back to France after the D Day landings) http://www.grieme.org/pages/comb.html the items recovered were brought up by the navy divers and recorded with the receiver of wrecks.
I have been involved with these divers in the past but did not dive on this wreckage and the report from the French Navy was a 4 engine bomber possible a Lancaster.
My French friend says
Hi Kevin
I send you the pictures of the artifacts we found on this wreck in 2005.
I dive on it and i remember that it was a 4 engines in star “12 cylinder i think !!”
There was no fuselage, only the engines, the cable on the wings and where the fuselage was and the cockpit on the sand.
But we don’t photography it !

Mark Evans from BAAC says RE: BAAC Web Form: General BAAC Enquiry

Kevin,

The radio component is very helpful. We think you have parts of a1082/1083 Transmitter/Receiver. The 1082/1083 was superseded by the T1154/R1155 in bombers around 1942. I’ve been on a Wellington crash site from July 1941 which has the R1155. We should be able to get more details of when the 1082/1083 went out of service. The early radio is consistent with the 1939 date on the direction indicator instrument – that doesn’t imply 1939 is the date of loss of course, but it does suggest an early-war loss.

One possibly id is Halifax II (Merlin engines) R9450 of 35 Squadron, which is recorded as crashing 30 miles off Mablethorpe at 23.00 on 9 March 1942. It had taken off at 19.16 from Linton-on-Ouse, bound for Essen. The crew of 7 were never found, so R9450 must be considered a war grave. This may not be the correct ID, because the 1082 radio may have gone out of service by March 1942.

In the Halifax, the navigator sat below and in front of the pilot, whereas in the Lancaster he was behind the pilot, at the same height. If the ICAN was forward of the cockpit area, that would suggest a Halifax – but of course wreckage can move around on the sea bed.

We’ll try to get a better date for the radio.

Regards,

Mark
BAAC

But we know now that the engines are radial so it rules out Halifax R9450
We have been researching this aircraft for the last few years but have only just been out to dive the site on 24 September 2013 and we have recovered no artifacts.
I applied to the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Commemorations & Licensing) for a licence and have been communicating with Sue Raftree on 11 April 2013 but I cannot get a signature from the landowner which they are insisting on, I have explained that it is on the sea bed and outside UK waters but they are sure that there will be a land owner for the site.
I have contacted English Heritage and asked them but they only cover UK waters as do the Crown Estate, so as it stands I am waiting for the Lawyers of the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Commemorations & Licensing) to come up with an answer, no idea when that will be.
I said that I thought that no license was necessary as when I was looking on the internet I read a site which said that aircraft outside UK waters did not need a UK license but the MOD would ask not to remove anything and respect the site, but thanks to you on this site I now know that I must push the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Commemorations & Licensing) to get me answer.
No one will frighten me away as I am determined to find out what aircraft this is and tell its story as we have done with a few shipwrecks it is only fitting that if this is a military aircraft and people lost their lives whilst serving our country that we should honor them for there sacrifice.
We have never done an aircraft before and am willing to learn from you guys and will gladly accept any help and information.
As a member of the BSAC I and most of our dive club know the legislation but unfortunately some divers just ignore it. We as a separate group have been diving and researching shipwrecks since 1997 and obtained a lottery grant in 2005 to 2008 to research shipwrecks around the River Humber which there are about 200 within a 20 mile radius of Spurn Point, we know the legislation and will always abide by it.
So please let me assure you we are dedicated to these wreck sites.
We will not be able to return to this site as it is a long way offshore and the weather and daylight hours will restrict us to research and no diving untill at least may 2014, we will hopefully get more photos and film next year and will let you all see them it as we cannot wait to solve this riddle.

Kind Regards Kevin

Hi All
Many thanks for all the info on PMR act, let me explain a little more.
This Aircraft was discovered by the French Navy while we were looking for the wreck of HMS Haldene given to the Free French Navy during WW2 (renamed La Commbatante, this ship took Charles De Gaulle back to France after the D Day landings) http://www.grieme.org/pages/comb.html the items recovered were brought up by the navy divers and recorded with the receiver of wrecks.
I have been involved with these divers in the past but did not dive on this wreckage and the report from the French Navy was a 4 engine bomber possible a Lancaster.
My French friend says
Hi Kevin
I send you the pictures of the artifacts we found on this wreck in 2005.
I dive on it and i remember that it was a 4 engines in star “12 cylinder i think !!”
There was no fuselage, only the engines, the cable on the wings and where the fuselage was and the cockpit on the sand.
But we don’t photography it !

Mark Evans from BAAC says RE: BAAC Web Form: General BAAC Enquiry

Kevin,

The radio component is very helpful. We think you have parts of a1082/1083 Transmitter/Receiver. The 1082/1083 was superseded by the T1154/R1155 in bombers around 1942. I’ve been on a Wellington crash site from July 1941 which has the R1155. We should be able to get more details of when the 1082/1083 went out of service. The early radio is consistent with the 1939 date on the direction indicator instrument – that doesn’t imply 1939 is the date of loss of course, but it does suggest an early-war loss.

One possibly id is Halifax II (Merlin engines) R9450 of 35 Squadron, which is recorded as crashing 30 miles off Mablethorpe at 23.00 on 9 March 1942. It had taken off at 19.16 from Linton-on-Ouse, bound for Essen. The crew of 7 were never found, so R9450 must be considered a war grave. This may not be the correct ID, because the 1082 radio may have gone out of service by March 1942.

In the Halifax, the navigator sat below and in front of the pilot, whereas in the Lancaster he was behind the pilot, at the same height. If the ICAN was forward of the cockpit area, that would suggest a Halifax – but of course wreckage can move around on the sea bed.

We’ll try to get a better date for the radio.

Regards,

Mark
BAAC

But we know now that the engines are radial so it rules out Halifax R9450
We have been researching this aircraft for the last few years but have only just been out to dive the site on 24 September 2013 and we have recovered no artifacts.
I applied to the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Commemorations & Licensing) for a licence and have been communicating with Sue Raftree on 11 April 2013 but I cannot get a signature from the landowner which they are insisting on, I have explained that it is on the sea bed and outside UK waters but they are sure that there will be a land owner for the site.
I have contacted English Heritage and asked them but they only cover UK waters as do the Crown Estate, so as it stands I am waiting for the Lawyers of the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Commemorations & Licensing) to come up with an answer, no idea when that will be.
I said that I thought that no license was necessary as when I was looking on the internet I read a site which said that aircraft outside UK waters did not need a UK license but the MOD would ask not to remove anything and respect the site, but thanks to you on this site I now know that I must push the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Commemorations & Licensing) to get me answer.
No one will frighten me away as I am determined to find out what aircraft this is and tell its story as we have done with a few shipwrecks it is only fitting that if this is a military aircraft and people lost their lives whilst serving our country that we should honor them for there sacrifice.
We have never done an aircraft before and am willing to learn from you guys and will gladly accept any help and information.
As a member of the BSAC I and most of our dive club know the legislation but unfortunately some divers just ignore it. We as a separate group have been diving and researching shipwrecks since 1997 and obtained a lottery grant in 2005 to 2008 to research shipwrecks around the River Humber which there are about 200 within a 20 mile radius of Spurn Point, we know the legislation and will always abide by it.
So please let me assure you we are dedicated to these wreck sites.
We will not be able to return to this site as it is a long way offshore and the weather and daylight hours will restrict us to research and no diving untill at least may 2014, we will hopefully get more photos and film next year and will let you all see them it as we cannot wait to solve this riddle.

Kind Regards Kevin

In the North Sea I’d narrow it down to – realistically – UK and dominions, France and Norway. If it IS a Sunderland – if that’s a Pegasus, and there are four of them, and there’s .303 around, then that is what it is – or a militarised Empire boat. But I appreciate that’s 3 ‘if’s and an ‘or’

Lots of Countries used Sunderlands, could be anyones, if indeed thats what it is.

Well said, Andy. Please come back Kevin and give us an approximate location for this wreck on the lines of ‘x miles off xxx’. If it’s a Sunderland, it shouldn’t be too difficult to identify it or at least narrow it down. Any other type and it gets difficult …

Having looked back through this thread it just seemed to me that we might be in danger of scaring away Speedwelfane.

I am sure that if any protocols were breached, this was never the intention and that the post illustrates a genuine desire to identify the wreck and the story of its crew.

There are many here who would be happy to help you and encourage you in that quest and would be equally happy to guide you through the legislative and research maze.

Not a full list Creaking Door…

Thank you for that comprehensive listing of what is (and is not) covered by the PMR Act. I had started to appreciate the intention of the wording but I think that the original confusion about there being a ‘contradiction’ was because, in the case of international waters, the PMR Act (at that point) is talking about aircraft / vessels in service with forces of a country outside the United Kingdom.

I missed that myself the first few times I read it.

Hi Andy,

Not required reading for any Sub Aqua qualification so results in same as for aviation anoracks – They only know if they read round the subject.

Recent publicity has been aimed at recording the seabed finds landed by means of the Receiver of Wreck.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-receiverofwreck/mcga-dops_row_reasons_to_report.htm

It’s this that suggests that declaring is all that needs to be legally done in most divers minds.

Regards
Ross

And the Goodwin Sands Dornier falls under the PMR Act because it is in United Kingdom territorial waters?

Thanks for that additional, Ross.

I still find it surprising that sport divers, or divers who are members of clubs, profess ignorance of the PMR Act. Surely, it is legislation well known to all dive clubs?

The Goodwins Dornier 17 is a case in point. Clearly, items have been removed since the introduction of the PMR Act and I suspect there may have been potential (a) firearms issues and (b) HM Receiver of Wreck issues, too, in that case?

Not a full list Creaking Door.

The act also applies to British Citizens on Foreign Vessels

“3.-(1) Where a contravention of subsection (2) of section 2 above occurs in international waters or an excavation or operation prohibited by subsection (3) of that section is carried out in international waters, a person shall be guilty of an offence under that section in respect of that contravention, excavation or operation only-

(a) if the acts or omissions which constitute the offence are committed in the United Kingdom, in United Kingdom waters or on board a British-controlled ship ;

or

(b) in a case where those acts or omissions are committed in international waters but not on board a British controlled ship, if that person is-
(i) a British citizen, a British Dependent Territories citizen or a British Overseas citizen ;

or
(ii) a person who under the British Nationality Act 1981 is a British subject ;

or
(iiii) a British protected person (within the meaning of that Act) ;

or
(iv) a company within the meaning of the Companies Act 1985 or the Companies Act (Northern Ireland) 1960.”

Regards
Ross

If you see contradictions, I see a court case looming, I always follow the regulations even for sites that may yield little.

Though the finding of this wreck brings to mind an elderly couple my parents bought our house off in 1972, their son was missing following a raid and they spent the rest of their lives touring Europe looking for him thinking he may be somewhere with Amnesia. He probably lies in a site like this in the sea, I wish I could remember their names, even at the age of abot 6 I found this a terribly sad tale.

Hi
goverment speak,
to me it contradicts itself.
Jerry

It’s an exception referring to British armed forces craft / aircraft in use with other armed forces.
Does that mean that RCAF, RAAF using UK supplied aircraft would not be covered?

Pete

I agree the PMR Act is real ‘government speak’ and I had to read it several times to see that there wasn’t a contradiction so if I’ve got it right:

United Kingdom aircraft / vessel in international waters – protected by PMR Act.

Any other aircraft / vessel in international waters – not protected by PMR Act.

Not sure that I see the contradiction?