Unlikely and expensive relic?

I doubt there is a fabrication of fakes for the “skin with badge and kill markings” market.

Oh, but there is….! Sadly.

I am still very intrigued by this piece though, the lengths that someone has gone to to make it has a story all of its own.

I think its a matter of somebody just painting a bit of aircraft structure as a personal hobby. Then later it was found by somebody else, who came up with a likely story.

As a kid i once carved runes into a large stone in the forrest. Pretty sure someone could think they were real viking age runes, if they walked by and saw them.

I doubt there is a fabrication of fakes for the “skin with badge and kill markings” market.

Thanks for the lesson gents, I am clearly not a prop man!!:o.

I am still very intrigued by this piece though, the lengths that someone has gone to to make it has a story all of its own.

Kindest regards,

John.

Morning all,

In the picture below is evidence that the artwork was not exclusively reserved for aft of the cockpit of a Hurricane, it was also painted on the metal skining on the starboard side under the cockpit……

Going back to my gut feeling, I would be inclined to say this piece was genuine but I would have to have confirmation by any manufacturers stamps on the skin, all that is eveident in the listing though is two stamps, 101 and 192 in little boxes and until these are confirmed the jury is still out:D.

Tin hat on, hiding behind sofa……

John.

That bit of a Hurricane is NOT metal skinned…take it from me (if you have not already from others just as qualified!) this piece is NOT Hurricane or Spitfire!

Check my website for a picture of the Hurricane panel that your pic showed it on! Wood/fabric

John….you can take this advice, or leave it. However, if I were you I wouldn’t put your money down for this item…not if I were you!!! 😉 Well….not unless it were less than, say, £30.00 max.

Just a minor point….but the badge you refer to on the starboard side of the Hurricane is painted onto a wooden panel – in fact a door – and the version behind the cockpit on the port side is fabric on wooden formers. Spitfire can also be ruled out, as can P-51, which seem to be the only “options” for 303 Sqn. The anodic finish and marks on the inside make me favour something from the Mikoyan factory.:) It is, without doubt, a fake.

Morning all,

I have spent a while now examining this item and would like to offer an alternative and objective look at the validity of the sellers claims.

My gut feeling is that this is a GENUINE piece of noseart, from what aircraft though I am not entirely certain.

A few things point to its validity, my first is the claim that the paint covers the rivet holes, this I feel is an unfair assumtion as you can deduce from the way the piece is bent it has clearly been ‘ripped’ from the airframe and the rivets have pulled through the skin leaving a neat hole……….

You can see in the above picture the rivets as they have been pulled through the skin leaving a neat hole, also there are some rivets that are part way pulled through leaving a neat ‘pocket’ that would have been filled in with paint had this been painted afterwards if it was faked.

This picture above shows the rivet holes that have been dished out as the rivets have been pulled through.

Also after plouring over the pictures it is clear to see that there is no paint on top of the corrosion, surely if this is fake then there would be paint on top of corrosion?.

In the picture below is evidence that the artwork was not exclusively reserved for aft of the cockpit of a Hurricane, it was also painted on the metal skining on the starboard side under the cockpit……

Going back to my gut feeling, I would be inclined to say this piece was genuine but I would have to have confirmation by any manufacturers stamps on the skin, all that is eveident in the listing though is two stamps, 101 and 192 in little boxes and until these are confirmed the jury is still out:D.

Tin hat on, hiding behind sofa……

John.

Besides being a fake, I can see how this kind of item could attract people from outside the aviation history community. Perhaps people who have had family in No. 303.

What I can’t figure out, is who is bidding on the other dubious Ebay items we have seen here on forum. Tiny bits of “aircraft” that has no established history, and often not even recognisable as aviation items.

The answer: “People with too much money”. can’t really cover it.

Even people with plenty of money, would be looking for something more than a clever “sales pitch”, when they add to their collection (otherwise its hardly a collection). Perhaps even more than people with less money, as they can afford to be selective.

Maybe its just random Ebay browsers, who think “Wow!” a “insert AC name” part. That would be cool….

It looks like it was made in the USA, certainly skinning from american aircraft corrodes in a very similar way with the outer face seemingly fine, even when not painted and then it falls apart due to advanced internal corrosion. Must be to do with the way the alloy sheet is produced.

If I was forced to put money on something I would say start with an F-86 or similar. Those ribs are individual parts and should be numbered.

…I note that the starting price has dropped.

Even so, it’s still about $2,999.99 too high, if you ask me! :D:rolleyes:

On days when I really, Really have time to waste this site whiles away an hour. And here’s that piece again, apparently in Austria.
http://www.iphpbb.com/board/ftopic-81805422nx79380-1031.html

Certainly would not want to be near that Mortar when it was fired..:eek:

Seems to me that the seller has cleverly worded his listing to make a potential buyer BELIEVE that this is a genuine BoB relic.

As for the mortar… :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Caveat Emptor…

The official badge of the RAF No. 303 Squadron had “303” printed below the crossed “spears”. This does not mean, that they always used it on aircraft, but most 303 Hurricanes I have seen (just been browsing) has the “303” print.

That’s a very interesting piece of information. I can’t recall ever seeing the ‘303’ in any example of the badge applied on any type of aircraft. It was introduced for the sake of the metal unit badge worn on uniforms.

I Wonder if the seller bought this a while ago, and was “Duped” him/herself ??:rolleyes:

He has bought it very recently, indeed. A couple of weeks ago this thing was offered on a local Polish equivalent of ebay. It reached 1000 zlotys (approx. 250 quid), but the high bidder had meanwhile consulted some people who know what Hurricanes and Spitfires look like and eventually cancelled the deal as the thing was found to be a fake. It then re-appeared on the same web auction place and went for 152 zlotys (less than 40 pounds).

Ah, dear old Alfie….his items were never sold for huge amounts (by him – so they were good value for the effort expended) but he was very artistic….he often signed his items…though in interesting ways…the one item of his I acquired had a scratched number on it that was difficult to pick out in the melee of scratches….I’ll wager that if you went and got Alf’s local phone book it was the number of the page on which his phone/address was! A true character.
Returning to the advert, cleverly worded as he implies nothing…not Hurricane/Spit or anything I recognise…location of rivet holes does suggest something with a hot bottom!:)

Indeed, Tony!

To be fair to Alfie, he did not produce these to deceive in a dishonest way, as such. Very often they were made to order, and ended up hung on office and study walls as just showpieces. Many are still around with the original owners who paid very modestly for Alfie’s art. As you say, many were “signed” and a number I have looked at have his trademark signature hidden away – just like Terrence Cuneo’s famous mouse! Sometimes is just a discreet black “+” on the back somewhere. Sadly, many of his works – knowingly bought as replicas – are now changing hands as originals at silly prices. My money is on this piece being an Alfie Batt.

As mentioned above, seller also have a 600 years old cannon – Teutonic Knights – XIV century for sale.

If anything, that item is a mortar, and if that, then its a pretty lousy one.

With no explosive rounds, you would have to lop a rather big ball across. The caliber of the item is far too small for such a mortar.

Flowerpot/urn in the shape of a mediaeval mortar. Which was not uncommon.

I Wonder if the seller bought this a while ago, and was “Duped” him/herself ??:rolleyes:

This looks to me VERY much like the artwork of the late Alf Batt who died a few years ago. He produced various unit badges, Geschwader emblems, Staffel badges, swastikas etc etc. All were to a very high standard, as it went, but the immediate give-away was that they were not painted on correctly matching pieces of airframe! For instance, you could end up with Me 109 swastikas on alloy panels marked ALCLAD 24 S T or Dornier 17 unit badges marked on bits of He 111 wing! Many of his pieces have already passed hands as original and many have turned up on e-bay in recent years. Apart from lack of “originality” of the actual panel used as his canvas another give away was that his paint had often run through rivet holes and trickled down the inside…..often over corrosion! Caveat Emptor

Ah, dear old Alfie….his items were never sold for huge amounts (by him – so they were good value for the effort expended) but he was very artistic….he often signed his items…though in interesting ways…the one item of his I acquired had a scratched number on it that was difficult to pick out in the melee of scratches….I’ll wager that if you went and got Alf’s local phone book it was the number of the page on which his phone/address was! A true character.
Returning to the advert, cleverly worded as he implies nothing…not Hurricane/Spit or anything I recognise…location of rivet holes does suggest something with a hot bottom!:)

The official badge of the RAF No. 303 Squadron had “303” printed below the crossed “spears”. This does not mean, that they always used it on aircraft, but most 303 Hurricanes I have seen (just been browsing) has the “303” print.

The 303 Spitfires and Mustangs did use the badge without “303”.

The item is structurally different, from the normal badge position on a Spitfire.

Mustangs saw little action with 303, but the kill markings could have been following the pilot from an earlier part of the war.

I think this is no more than that ‘100% genuine airplane aluminium shell’ Creaking door points to above. 303 history and markings added for value.

Just curious, are there any Spitfire experts out there that can prove 100% that this is NOT spitfire??

I can categorically state that this is not Spitfire or Hurricane! As Mk12 says, the aluminium stamps suggest Russian.

The paint covers the rivet holes, so of course can only have been applied after those rivets were removed.

Good effort though!

Bruce

This looks to me VERY much like the artwork of the late Alf Batt who died a few years ago. He produced various unit badges, Geschwader emblems, Staffel badges, swastikas etc etc. All were to a very high standard, as it went, but the immediate give-away was that they were not painted on correctly matching pieces of airframe! For instance, you could end up with Me 109 swastikas on alloy panels marked ALCLAD 24 S T or Dornier 17 unit badges marked on bits of He 111 wing! Many of his pieces have already passed hands as original and many have turned up on e-bay in recent years. Apart from lack of “originality” of the actual panel used as his canvas another give away was that his paint had often run through rivet holes and trickled down the inside…..often over corrosion! Caveat Emptor