unusual air combat encounters

The Red Barons Last Flight

May I suggest that (if you haven’t read it) the above book by Norman Franks and the late Alan Bennett is a very thoroughly researched work and contains forensic evidence, plotted ground plans and looks at the subject from all points of view. I had the pleasure of dining with these two gentlemen at a Cross and Cockade weekend just before publication. I recommend it.

John

Have you got a transcript of that report you can share? It would be interesting.

James, here you go

Combat Report – Victory #10
At 10:35 a.m. I observed two Albatross burst into flames and crash.
Dived on large formation of 15 – 20 Albatross Scouts[,] D 5’s and Fokker triplanes, two of which got on my tail and I came out. Went back again and dived on pure red triplane which was firing on Lieut. May. I got a long burst into him and he went down vertical and was observed to crash by Lieut. Mellersh and Lieut[.] May. I fired on two more but did not get them.” – Brown’s combat report, 21 April 1918

True… but I am responding to a statement that was made stating that Brown got off a quick shot at MVR and then ******** off back to his lines because he was about to have an “accident” due to dysentary.
There is no evidence of that anywhere , in fact Browns combat report states that he attcaked two other enemy a/c after shooting at MVR.

Have you got a transcript of that report you can share? It would be interesting.

Without getting into too much detail; one of the effects of stomach ulcers can be getting ‘caught short’ at inapproporiate moments……

True… but I am responding to a statement that was made stating that Brown got off a quick shot at MVR and then ******** off back to his lines because he was about to have an “accident” due to dysentary.
There is no evidence of that anywhere , in fact Browns combat report states that he attcaked two other enemy a/c after shooting at MVR.

“Brown is reported to have had stomach ulcers and so was living on a diet of Brandy and Milk. Dunno about the Dysentry, never seen that quoted.

Without getting into too much detail; one of the effects of stomach ulcers can be getting ‘caught short’ at inapproporiate moments……

Ya gotta watch out for that Guy In The Back.

Lessons for life.

What I find most absurd is Air America fired Capt. Moore for causing an international incident! He was later rehired at the insistence of the CIA.

Cheers
Gary

If you think thats mad, :eek:George Welch was charged with “an unauthorised take off on a Sunday” after Pearl Harbour when he was one of the few to get off the ground in response to the attack. Later dropped and he got a medal…

Where it is well know that Brown suffered from ulcers, I have never before heard of the dysentery issue and have been unable to find record of it anywhere except your quote. What is your source ?

😮 As in that thread, I was contradicted by Melvyn again: “Brown is reported to have had stomach ulcers and so was living on a diet of Brandy and Milk. Dunno about the Dysentry, never seen that quoted.” I what (if any source) I got the dysentery from – and may have mentally converted it from ulcers! Not supported either way, sorry.

Hello,

Your comment got me to thinking so I dug out the copy of the report I have and you are indeed correct, it was a UH-1D! It was flown by Captain Theodore H. Moore and the Flight Mechanic(who was actually armed with an AK-47)was named Glenn Woods. The two AN2s were from the NVAF 919th air transport regiment and were actually bombing a US TACAN station. Both of the AN2s were shot down! What I find most absurd is Air America fired Capt. Moore for causing an international incident! He was later rehired at the insistence of the CIA.

Cheers
Gary

IIRC it was a UH-1 but without a doubt an odd “combat” – there is an oil painting of it commisioned by the CIA I think?

probably the strangest dogfight(well it was an air to air combat…just not quite a dogfight) was between an Air America Jetranger helicopter with the armament consisting of the Guy In Back armed with an Uzi SMG taking on an North Vietnamese Airforce AN2 I believe it was. They flew alongside the biplane while it was trying to bomb a Hmong outpost and the guy with the Uzi was able to do enough damage to force it down.

Cheers
Gary

IIRC it was a UH-1 but without a doubt an odd “combat” – there is an oil painting of it commisioned by the CIA I think?

Hi Duncan,

I believe you are referring to an encounter between an Israeli O-1 and a Egyptian MiG. I don’t recall if it was a 15 or 17 that was involved.

Cheers
Gary

Wasn’t there a case in Korea of a MIG 15 flying into the ground while trying to down a Piper Cub? Or did I read it in a comic book?

probably the strangest dogfight(well it was an air to air combat…just not quite a dogfight) was between an Air America Jetranger helicopter with the armament consisting of the Guy In Back armed with an Uzi SMG taking on an North Vietnamese Airforce AN2 I believe it was. They flew alongside the biplane while it was trying to bomb a Hmong outpost and the guy with the Uzi was able to do enough damage to force it down.

Cheers
Gary

RAF Tornados destroyed a couple of Mirage F1s on the ground during GWI (initially thought to be Mig 29s), and Buccaneers hit an An-12 and an ex-Kuwaiti Hercules

Great clip! 😀

Picked up the DVD for a few pounds – BSG junior and I watched it through. Great clips on the carrier deck, and in an early scene a Vigilante as well (it is massive)

F-14’s with classic markings, well worth a viewing…. its tripe by the way, but excellent tripe!

JDK
Your quote from another thread:

“The Red Baron ‘controversy’ mainly existed first because there was a war on, and later because there were ‘interested parties’ – particularly the RFC brass who demanded that Brown claim the kill; Brown was far from certain and just shot off a squirt and ran for home suffering from dysentery. An unbiassed analysis will conclude Brown did not fire the shot. Brown, to his dying day, I understand, would not discuss the combat after the argument started. “

Where it is well know that Brown suffered from ulcers, I have never before heard of the dysentery issue and have been unable to find record of it anywhere except your quote. What is your source ?

Thanks
Fleet16b

Wasn’t there a case in Korea of a MIG 15 flying into the ground while trying to down a Piper Cub? Or did I read it in a comic book?

James

To be sure the whole topic is very interesting as well as the various conclusions by various countries.
You are right , in the end he was dead no matter how.
It is too bad he was killed. Imagine if he had been captured.
IMO, he would have been a very interesting person to interview.
The MVR (:diablo:) incident will never fully be solved and it is an easy one to get “patriotic ” about.
Another interesting side to all of this is the amount of people that claim to have parts of the Tri-plane. I have seen threads listing many of the surviving pieces. These reports seem to suggest that much still exists.
Thanks for your honest insights into the topic( we seemed to highjack the original post a bit :dev2:)
Fleet16b:)

For Fleet16b – an apology.

The old memory isn’t what it was, but a long rambling discussion between Melv and myself changes what I was being so dogmatic about above. :rolleyes:

A couple of quotes where I misremembered (was wrong…)

Not quite. The bullet entered his SIDE and exited opposite side slightly higher up. The exit would was small enough to suggest it did not tumble or hit bone as it would have made a larger exit wound. There is discrepency in the contemporary reports but the size of the exit is important. The bullet, as Kighters says, caused trauma to the lung and he drowned on his own blood in considerable pain. My information on the wound was discussed with a doctor at the Cambridge Military Hospital in Aldershot who said he could have lived for up to about a minute and a half from the shot.

It takes six minutes to fly from Richthofen’s base at Cappy to the crash site, and from where the fight started to where he crashed is about 90 seconds! Many people forget that dogfights happen very quickly and are over very quickly. It is possible that he could have been shot on Brown’s first (and only) pass and lived long enough to inadvertantly follow May a little longer and reached the crash site.

A good friend of mine once said “What does it matter who shot him, he’s still dead” which is, of course, true but there is so much rubbish written that I find it fascinating. Flying the course was very interesting and I learned a lot by doing it. Of course there is no way of knowing how accurate my flight was but the speeds were about the same and I flew around the areas mentioned at the time.

My own belief is that it was either Brown or Popkin (for the unitiated, Popkin was a Lewis gunner that had a position by the river and shot at Richthofen as he passed by) although I tend to favour Brown.

Even then, Brown’s own account was flawed and it is likely he only got one burst in. Certainly the old image of Maye being chased by Von R and him, in turn, being chased by Brown is utter tosh.

http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=1879

In the interests of honest research, I present these opinions. However – “But that was in another country and besides, the wench is dead.”

Regards,

Well James I must respectfully disagree.

You’re welcome.

While I agree that the truth will never be entirely known.

Absolutely. Likewise any claims of certainty for Brown (or anyone else) must admit that lack of certainty.

There were many Aussie gunners that claimed to have got him.
they were coming out of the wood work left and right just after the incident. If one reads all the claims and what was happening, it seems like just another instance of everybody wanting the fame.

Absolutely. However I wasn’t talking about ‘many’ but one, specific credible claim.

The investigations ( and there are many don’t all have the same conclusion about Browns shots as you do. A man and a/c can be hit and glide quite sometime before reacting to anything.

The single, fatal, wound that MvR received is very quantifiable, in the duration of how long he would live before essentially drowning in his own blood. He can only have been shot a certain time, and distance before his semi-controlled landing; and Brown was outside that scope.

If you were to study Browns initial combat report plus the stand he took for the rest of his life, it is clear that he was sure that he got him. He was an experienced fighter pilot at that point and would be fairly confidant as to whether or not he got him.

Hmmm. Not my recollection; I did study the data – Brown’s report isn’t conclusive however sincere – you can’t kill people with a report. More importantly I talked the story over with Melvyn Hiscock who has studied the matter in depth, and flown the course among other primary research. I’ll thank you not to babble about conspiracies in the same context as proper research.

Brown is officially the credited victor in the fight and that is what recorded history shows.

Oh, please. Sure he is, By the RAF. If you want to stick with only the ‘official’ history of the Great War, you’re wellcome, and mighty partial it’ll be too.

You’re Canadian (I presume) and I’m Australian. On that basis alone I’d be suspicious of initial bias (I’m certainly prepared to admit one!) and it’s interesting how the story changes when presented in the UK, Germany, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Of course there are multiple ‘conclusions’. As far as I could tell from my research, I’m happy with the probably Popkin conclusion. You’re happy with ‘official reports’ and the sincere expression of an experienced officer – a view that has been shown faulty or false, however sincere, on too many occasions to merit comment – let’s just mention the Bader shootdown for one.

You may be right, I may be or we both may be wrong. However what matters is not some trivial credit but that a highly efficient and effective enemy was neutralised.

(And I, for one am grateful that we got to see a great post-war career from ‘Wop’ May as a result, including the ‘Mad Trapper’ incident.)

Regards,

Again, there’s no credible suggestion a single rifle bullet brought him down. It was a rifle-calibre bullet from a machine gun – see my post #22. Brown’s shots are discounted because of timing (too early) and path of wound (possible but unlikely). His claim would be championed by some (including Bishop) as it was an ‘aerial’ victory and an RAF one. Bishop’s rationale quoted by K225 is not watertight at all.

Gunner Cedric Popkin (one of at least two Australian gunner claims – Gunner Buie being another) comes out as most likely, on a forensic assessment of the possible evidence, most of which is in the public domain – anyone can work it out for themselves, although it will always remain a question of probabilities. but as K225 says ‘in the final analysis, it really doesn’t matter’, because MvR was no longer a problem.

Regards,

Well James I must respectfully disagree. While I agree that the truth will never be entirely known. There were many Aussie gunners that claimed to have got him.
they were coming out of the wood work left and right just after the incident.
If one reads all the claims and what was happening, it seems like just another instance of everybody wanting the fame.
The investigations ( and there are many don’t all have the same conclusion about Browns shots as you do. A man and a/c can be hit and glide quite sometime before reacting to anything.
If you were to study Browns initial combat report plus the stand he took for the rest of his life, it is clear that he was sure that he got him.He was an experienced fighter pilot at that point and would be fairly confidant as to whether or not he got him.
Brown is officially the credited victor in the fight and that is what recorded history shows.
The rest is just conjecture from conspiracy theorist……;)