Update please

You have not corrected me at any point, and frankly havnt provided any ‘data’ yourself- just ranted about how little I know and how much you know.:rolleyes:

The facts speak for themselves as to who’s relying on one liners as compared to providing actual data. As I mentioned earlier, you are welcome to ask Harry or anyone else- but pass judgements, and you will be replied to.

My post asking Neptune about his isuue with Harry is as it was posted it has not been edited and you know it, this is yet another case of you wanting people to do or say something that they have not. I am actually starting to get quite angry about your insistance that I accused harry as there is no evidence that I have and only you seem to have seen this. So I state one last time

I DID NOT EDIT MY POST AT ANY POINT, I HAVE NOT ACCUSED HARRY OF ANYTHING AND I SIMPLY ASKED FOR MORE FACTS.

Keep saying it all you want mate. If you really wanted more information, you would have directly PM’ed Neptune and Harry. I reserve my opinion on your motives.

Coming to your “I am starting to get quite angry”- well, you should have thought about that before passing judgemental comments in the PRC thread, eh? Not really much fun, when the shoe is on the other foot.

For someone who did not want the PRC involved in this thread you have spent an awfull lot of time talking about it and put great effort into trying to get me to talk about it.:rolleyes:

The thread makes it clear that the PRC was compared to India in terms of MIC, and my replies are on topic.

I assumed you were aware of what discussion was going on when you jumped in, but I should have known better. :rolleyes:

As regards the rest, I am just pointing out – for the record- that I consider you to be firmly on the PRC side, so that you kindly dont pull the objective commentator sht!ck anymore when it comes to commenting on India or the like.

I find it amusing that you salute Fedaykins post but then ignore his suggestion and post a reply to me!:D

My post to Fedaykin, is AFTER I replied to you. Ergo, it would be also a valid conclusion if you were to think that I read your comment first, replied to it, and then read his and replied. :rolleyes:

I find your lack of reading comprehension..disturbing.

Oh get off it. First of all, all you have done till date is come up with ridiculous extrapolations based on dodgy data, and which I have had to correct you at every step. And now you call your own words a “reasonable assessement” and I am supposed to humour you, agree with you, and pat you on the back for it? First learn more on the topic and come back- if you want information, Harry & I & others can provide it. But if you pass judgement and then expect it to be swallowed uncritically, look elsewhere.

Dude, please dont kid me- I know that if you edit fast enough, the edit mark does not appear, especially if the post is not replied to within the time. I had several posts of mine with the same, and I noticed it earlier, and even remember asking an admin about why some posts got “edit marks” and others didnt. I do remember seeing your original bit and it was more judgmental. All your present disclaimers apart.

Be as it may- even thats besides the point. If you want to cheerlead for the PRC, then come out in front and admit it, show some spine.
Dont flounce around from thread to thread, pretend to be an objective commentator whilst sticking an oar in. And then assuming that nobody around can see through the entire farce. 😎 :rolleyes:

You have not corrected me at any point, and frankly havnt provided any ‘data’ yourself- just ranted about how little I know and how much you know.:rolleyes:

My post asking Neptune about his isuue with Harry is as it was posted it has not been edited and you know it, this is yet another case of you wanting people to do or say something that they have not. I am actually starting to get quite angry about your insistance that I accused harry as there is no evidence that I have and only you seem to have seen this. So I state one last time

I DID NOT EDIT MY POST AT ANY POINT, I HAVE NOT ACCUSED HARRY OF ANYTHING AND I SIMPLY ASKED FOR MORE FACTS.

For someone who did not want the PRC involved in this thread you have spent an awfull lot of time talking about it and put great effort into trying to get me to talk about it, even in the above you mention it! I have been the one telling YOU to keep the PRC out of this:rolleyes:

I find it amusing that you salute Fedaykins post but then ignore his suggestion and post a reply to me!:D

Weird that a thread started asking for an update on a Romanian navy helicopter purchase has descended into a mud slinging match over the Indian and Chinese navies.

Which is EXACTLY why Harry & I didnt want the PLAN brought in to begin with.

Time for people to go to their happy places and let the issue drop me thinks…

And heres a cheers to you, mate. Have a good one. 😉

So you wont respond to a reasonable asessement, that says alot about you.:rolleyes:

Oh get off it. First of all, all you have done till date is come up with ridiculous extrapolations based on dodgy data, and which I have had to correct you at every step. And now you call your own words a “reasonable assessement” and I am supposed to humour you, agree with you, and pat you on the back for it? First learn more on the topic and come back- if you want information, Harry & I & others can provide it. But if you pass judgement and then expect it to be swallowed uncritically, look elsewhere.

By the way if you look, the post in which I asked Neptune about his cissue with a warning from Harry has never been edited, so look whos making accusations now.:p

Dude, please dont kid me- I know that if you edit fast enough, the edit mark does not appear, especially if the post is not replied to within the time. I had several posts of mine with the same, and I noticed it earlier, and even remember asking an admin about why some posts got “edit marks” and others didnt. I do remember seeing your original bit and it was more judgmental. All your present disclaimers apart.

Be as it may- even thats besides the point. If you want to cheerlead for the PRC, then come out in front and admit it, show some spine.
Dont flounce around from thread to thread, pretend to be an objective commentator whilst sticking an oar in. And then assuming that nobody around can see through the entire farce. 😎 :rolleyes:

Weird that a thread started asking for an update on a Romanian navy helicopter purchase has descended into a mud slinging match over the Indian and Chinese navies.

Time for people to go to their happy places and let the issue drop me thinks…

I honestly think your opinion on this topic aint worth shaking a leg over. My previous replies should have made it clear, if it wasnt clear enough already. :rolleyes:

Sure, sure. :rolleyes:

Hardly using the PRCs record to defend India. Neptune and Turbinia brought the PRCs record up as some sort of thing for India to emulate, and I was merely pointing out the other sort of the coin. :rolleyes:

So you wont respond to a reasonable asessement, that says alot about you.:rolleyes:

By the way if you look, the post in which I asked Neptune about his cissue with a warning from Harry has never been edited, so look whos making accusations now.:p

So do you or dont you disagree with the opinion that I posted?:rolleyes:

I honestly think your opinion on this topic aint worth shaking a leg over, as it is opinion devoid of actual facts to back it up. My previous replies should have made my POV on your opinion clear, if it wasnt clear enough already. :rolleyes:

I have no problem with discussing the PRC

Sure, sure. :rolleyes:

I just dont see why you insist on using it to defend India?

Hardly using the PRCs record to defend India. Neptune and Turbinia brought the PRCs record up as some sort of thing for India to emulate, and I was merely pointing out the other sort of the coin. :rolleyes:

My goodness- the “Sea Lord” gets heated up when the PRC is mentioned. How utterly predictable.

Earth to Saturn. If you do jump into a thread to stir the pot, and can bear to tone down your glee at taking a quick swipe- next time, please do pay attention to the context of the discussion. Some gentlemen insisted on comparing the PRC to India, despite I & Harry for that matter, being opposed to it. My “mentioning” China is entirely in that vein.

Anything else?

Nice try- but its pointless debating this with you. I am pretty sure at this point that when queried upon this, your “knowledge” of India’s procurement or its Mil. Industrial complex and the purpose its meant to serve would hardly merit a reply. So cheers.

So do you or dont you disagree with the opinion that I posted?:rolleyes:

I have no problem with discussing the PRC I just dont see why you insist on using it to defend India?

Please spare me the martyr act (yet again). You have either a problem with the English language or reading comprehension.

This is the first reply:

I do note however that you edited it to make it a tad less accusatory then it originally was- wherein you sat in judgement on Harry (with your few “Ifs, heh!). An improvement!

You seem to just be qouting stuff for no reason now.:rolleyes: I never edited my comments about Harry they are the same as I originally posted them.:rolleyes:

Why do you keep mentioning China? How do chinese issues effect Indian ones? Anybody would think you have an obsession!!!

My goodness- the “Sea Lord” gets heated up when the PRC is mentioned. How utterly predictable.

Earth to Saturn. If you do jump into a thread to stir the pot, and can bear to tone down your glee at taking a quick swipe- next time, please do pay attention to the context of the discussion. Some gentlemen insisted on comparing the PRC to India, despite I & Harry for that matter, being opposed to it. My “mentioning” China is entirely in that vein.

Anything else?

All I have said is that some of Indias, Indigenous projects have been less than successful but that equally many have been successful. Ultimately though the Indian armed forces are still reliant upon foreign systems, somehow this seems to upset you.:rolleyes:

Nice try- but its pointless debating this with you. I am pretty sure at this point that when queried upon this, your “knowledge” of India’s procurement or its Mil. Industrial complex and the purpose its meant to serve would hardly merit a reply. So cheers.

Why do you not respond to points? Instead you modify language and come up with what YOU want people to say, then have a fit about it.

Examples,
1) I try to find out more information about Neptunes comments, so you remove the IF’s (the crucial part) and start ranting about me making accusations which I have in fact not made. I would not contact the mods unless I actually know what happened.

Please spare me the martyr act (yet again). You have either a problem with the English language or reading comprehension. I have neither modified language nor have I missed your “Ifs”.

This is the first reply:

So now its a campaign against Harry- how predictable. What next, Harry is- gawsh, horror of horrors, an Indian!

Very nice way to besmirch an individual- make comments about his judgement, load it with a suitable number of “IFS” and there you have it!

Meanwhile, no comments from you about the language etc. How very predictable.

Let me point it out even more simply- making accusations or doing a bit of muck raking, even whilst loading it with “Ifs” is fairly easy to discern. I do note however that you edited it to make it a tad less accusatory then it originally was- wherein you sat in judgement on Harry (with your few “Ifs, heh!). An improvement!

2) When did I ever say that there needed to be an order for 400 LCA? I did not, I was simply using Typhoon as an example. Maybe a better one would be the Su-30MKI, according to the latest reports that IAF may order upto 230, they are already on 190

Let me resort to that horrible thing I keep using- facts! For those unaware of the IAF’s procurement decisions, they may take note that India first ordered only 40 MKIs, before agreeing to license manufacture 150 more, and the latter was cleared only after the MKI Mk3 met full user specs. The point is simple- the IAF, is following the same path with the LCA, the issue of orders has little to do with the media coverage of projects, which is what I referred to.

Why would looking in the Mirror help me with the PRC, I have nothing to do with it?:rolleyes:

Really- why is it then that anything to do with the PRC gets you so so hot and bothered, then?

Let me repeat myself- if the message is not clear enough – you are welcome to take sides, engage in partisan debate and present your POV (this *is* a discussion board, after all)- but please dont pass yourself off as neutral or having that adjective lend your POV any extra credibility. Your record when it comes to defending the PRC speaks for itself.

pointing out other countrys procurement mistakes and faliures does not justfie Indias. :rolleyes:

Nice emoticon – but no, the simple fact is that if the PRC (or for that matter any other nation), is held to be a standard of comparison (others have insisted on doing)- then it bears pointing out that its record is not all strawberries and cream either.

Selective memory is a great thing, but if one does insist on facile comparisons as in this thread, (without even the actual data on how much the PRC has invested in weapons development vis a vis India), then please be prepared to see the other side of the coin as well. Not – as usual- cherrypick your figures.

Indeed you didnt. You were unable to point out a single flaw in the report, or even offer any technical commentary on it. What you did do, however, was to make suitably angry comments on it, attempt to point that I was remiss in even posting it and drag it over several threads.

There is a term: “being too clever by half”. Quite valid in this case as to your actions, and your explanations even!

Ah, but so am I. Which is what I find so amusing, when honest opinions are proferred, you react with scalded outrage..hmm! Why is it that. Must be the water, I guess! Or could it be that anything related to the PRC strikes too close…hmm..never that, never that!

The facts also speak for themselves, that the Chinese tanks (including their latest Type-9XX, acc. to Janes also relies on a locally licensed engine from MTU), and that the export variants such as the Al Khalid, also rely choc a bloc on imported components to get them upto specs, including French thermals, Ukrainian engines and transmissions etc etc. It quite seems that the PRCs discerning customers would prefer the same. The Arjuns engine production has been restarted. 124 of the Arjun have been ordered as thats all the In.Army can afford for now, considering the cost of logistics is high (far more than the Arjun itself), and that the threat profile from heavy MBTs has receded. Now these tiny details dont seem to back up your facts, but never mind that. As I said, I dont expect you to have them. Cheerleading and sniping from the sidelines is easier, do please stick to that.

My my- the last I recalled, even the PRC had substantial foreign assistance from abroad for its J-10 program, which allowed them to get their engine out of the door. Many articles even, tracing the extent of “foreign assistance” for all the other subsystems. Secondly, the Swedes tell me that their Gripen also has many foreign components, including a variant of the same engine as the Tejas- I wonder why is that! Air Marshal MSD Wollens and other official audit articles inform me that compared to other programs of its genre, the Tejas has consumed far less money and has suffered from India’s own economic troubles, which impacted its funding. But never mind all that- those are details and facts– we dont need those! Lets have some good old fashioned opinion for a change which of course, is “balanced”.

Thanks a lot, I needed that- early on in the day, I find a healthy guffaw to be best for my lungs and circulatory system! I must commend you on your sense of humour. And do come out of the closet- nobody here will bite your head off over your support for the PRC.

Why do you keep mentioning China? How do chinese issues effect Indian ones? Anybody would think you have an obsession!!!

All I have said is that some of Indias, Indigenous projects have been less than successful but that equally many have been successful. Ultimately though the Indian armed forces are still reliant upon foreign systems, somehow this seems to upset you.:rolleyes:

Why do you not respond to points? Instead you modify language and come up with what YOU want people to say, then have a fit about it.

Examples,
1) I try to find out more information about Neptunes comments, so you remove the IF’s (the crucial part) and start ranting about me making accusations which I have in fact not made. I would not contact the mods unless I actually know what happened.

Please spare me the martyr act (yet again). You have either a problem with the English language or reading comprehension.

This is the first reply:

So now its a campaign against Harry- how predictable. What next, Harry is- gawsh, horror of horrors, an Indian!

Very nice way to besmirch an individual- make comments about his judgement, load it with a suitable number of “IFS” and there you have it!

Meanwhile, no comments from you about the language etc. How very predictable.

I do note however that you edited it to make it a tad less accusatory then it originally was- wherein you sat in judgement on Harry (with your few “Ifs, heh!). An improvement!

2) When did I ever say that there needed to be an order for 400 LCA? I did not, I was simply using Typhoon as an example. Maybe a better one would be the Su-30MKI, according to the latest reports that IAF may order upto 230, they are already on 190

Why would looking in the Mirror help me with the PRC, I have nothing to do with it?:rolleyes: pointing out other countrys procurement mistakes and faliures does not justfie Indias. :rolleyes:

In reply to the quick “edit work”:

No issues, but then again- its still on offer to the IAF, and its technology will be reused in other programs. Furthermore, I have the intestinal fortitude to debate this and admit it. I dont need to cozen myself with outrage when one stern article from AWST is presented about one Indian sat failing and then react with outrage! Look in the mirror please, and think- do we really need to go down the path of how many of PRCs’s projects, throughout its history, have been failures? I daresay you wont like that- I can well imagine your indignation. OTOH, I look upon them as vital stepping stones. “Lord”, kindly spare us the histrionics about one piddling SHORAD missile- with some 70 Millon$ spent on it, it hardly broke India’s bank.

And we are to take these comments seriously! A multinational program, launched with much more institutional and financial support, and with the backing of Europes best aerospace firms, and the orders are likewise split between four nations – but hey, the LCA now has to have 400 orders! Why not 10,000 “Lord”? Would that be enough?

But that was not the point either- the simple fact is and was, that the EF drew equally bad press till it became ready (reached IOC, rather)- after which it was the bees knees. Facts, are clearly not your strong point, SLL, please snipe from the sidelines- thats easier!

Right, a very outraged tone, a few IFs (for covering yerself) – I mean, seriously- do you really think everyone else is dense and that they cant see through the charade?

If you were really outraged or cared two hoots, you would have PM’ed the other mods or Harry himself- not engaged in a public spectacle.

Why do you not respond to points? Instead you modify language and come up with what YOU want people to say, then have a fit about it.

Examples,
1) I try to find out more information about Neptunes comments, so you remove the IF’s (the crucial part) and start ranting about me making accusations which I have in fact not made. I would not contact the mods unless I actually know what happened.

2) When did I ever say that there needed to be an order for 400 LCA? I did not, I was simply using Typhoon as an example. Maybe a better one would be the Su-30MKI, according to the latest reports that IAF may order upto 230, they are already on 190

Why would looking in the Mirror help me with the PRC, I have nothing to do with it?:rolleyes: pointing out other countrys procurement mistakes and faliures does not justfie Indias. :rolleyes:

In reply to the quick “edit work”:

You admit yourself that Trishul is a faliure.

No issues, but then again- its still on offer to the IAF, and its technology will be reused in other programs. Furthermore, I have the fortitude to debate this and admit it. I dont need to cozen myself with outrage when one stern article from AWST is presented about one Indian sat failing and then react with outrage! Look in the mirror please, and think- do we really need to go down the path of how many of PRCs’s projects, throughout its history, have been failures? I daresay you wont like that- I can well imagine your indignation. OTOH, I look upon them as vital stepping stones. “Lord”, kindly spare us the histrionics about one SHORAD missile- with some 70 Millon$ spent on it till date, it hardly broke India’s bank. Thats literally peanuts by international standards.

I did not cherry pick items I simply selected those that are well known. Yes major programmes draw criticism, and in Indias case alot of Criticism but one cannot simply say they have been delivered therefore they are succesful, one has to look at the context in which they are delivered, whilst over 400 Typhoons have been oredered, only 40 Tejas have, and only 124 Arjuns.

And we are to take these comments seriously! A multinational program, launched with much more institutional and financial support, and with the backing of Europes best aerospace firms, and the orders are likewise split between four nations – but hey, the LCA now has to have 400 orders! Why not 10,000 “Lord”? Would that be enough?

But that was not the point either- the simple fact is and was, that the EF drew equally bad press till it became ready (reached IOC, rather)- after which it was the bees knees. Hmm!

hat campaig against Harry? Did you not notice the IF’s in my post? I was asking for the full facts so I could make my own judgement not accusing anybody!

Right, a very outraged tone, a few IFs (for covering yerself) – I mean, seriously- do you really think everyone else is dense and that they cant see through the charade?

If you were really outraged or cared two hoots, you would have PM’ed the other mods or Harry himself- not engaged in a public spectacle.

I never responded to the AWST report.

Indeed you didnt. You were unable to point out a single flaw in the report, or even offer any technical commentary on it. What you did do, however, was to make suitably angry comments on it, attempt to point that I was remiss in even posting it and drag it over several threads.

There is a term: “being too clever by half”. Quite valid in this case as to your actions, and your explanations even!

I gave you my honest opinion like it or lump it.

Ah, but so am I. Which is what I find so amusing, when honest opinions are proferred, you react with scalded outrage..hmm! Why is it that. Must be the water, I guess! Or could it be that anything related to the PRC strikes too close…hmm..never that, never that!

But the facts speak for themselves, only 124 Arjuns ordered, with few prospects for more. Large numbers of foreign componants (at least one of which is now out of production- the engine)

The facts also speak for themselves, that the Chinese tanks (including their latest Type-9XX, acc. to Janes also relies on a locally licensed engine from MTU), and that the export variants such as the Al Khalid, also rely choc a bloc on imported components to get them upto specs, including French thermals, Ukrainian engines and transmissions etc etc. It quite seems that the PRCs discerning customers would prefer the same. The Arjuns engine production has been restarted. 124 of the Arjun have been ordered as thats all the In.Army can afford for now, considering the cost of logistics is high (far more than the Arjun itself), and that the threat profile from heavy MBTs has receded. Now these tiny details dont seem to back up your facts, but never mind that. As I said, I dont expect you to have them. Cheerleading and sniping from the sidelines is easier, do please stick to that.

Tejas, currently using both foreign engine and radar with only 3/4 prototypes and decades of development not to mention vast sums of money. Yes it is now making progress but it has been a slow and painful process.

My my- the last I recalled, even the PRC had substantial foreign assistance from abroad for its J-10 program, which allowed them to get their engine out of the door. Many articles even, tracing the extent of “foreign assistance” for all the other subsystems. Secondly, the Swedes tell me that their Gripen also has many foreign components, including a variant of the same engine as the Tejas- I wonder why is that! Air Marshal MSD Wollens and other official audit articles inform me that compared to other programs of its genre, the Tejas has consumed far less money and has suffered from India’s own economic troubles, which impacted its funding. But never mind all that- those are details and facts– we dont need those! Lets have some good old fashioned opinion for a change which of course, is “balanced”.

I am not chinese neither am I ‘sympathetic’ to them, I have an opinion which I percieve to be correct and balanced, I find it interesting that recognised my balanced opinion and it seems to have upset you.

Thanks a lot, I needed that- early on in the day, I find a healthy guffaw to be best for my lungs and circulatory system! I must commend you on your sense of humour. And do come out of the closet- nobody here will bite your head off over your support for the PRC.

I never responded to the AWST report.

I gave you my honest opinion like it or lump it. But the facts speak for themselves, only 124 Arjuns ordered, with few prospects for more. Large numbers of foreign componants (at least one of which is now out of production- the engine).

Tejas, currently using both foreign engine and radar with only 3/4 prototypes and decades of development not to mention vast sums of money. Yes it is now making progress but it has been a slow and painful process.

You admit yourself that Trishul is a faliure.

I am not chinese neither am I ‘sympathetic’ to them, I have an opinion which I percieve to be correct and balanced, I find it interesting that recognised my balanced opinion and it seems to have upset you.

I did not cherry pick items I simply selected those that are well known. Yes major programmes draw criticism, and in Indias case alot of Criticism but one cannot simply say they have been delivered therefore they are succesful, one has to look at the context in which they are delivered, whilst over 400 Typhoons have been oredered, only 40 Tejas have, and only 124 Arjuns.

What campaig against Harry? Did you not notice the IF’s in my post? I was asking for the full facts so I could make my own judgement not accusing anybody!

Nick, considering your efforts in the Chinese military speculation thread, you are in no position to lecture people about flame wars.

Sealord, Its perfectly fine if you are sympathetic to the PRC, are of Chinese origin living in the UK or the like, and you wish to support them, but please dont try to pass it off as a neutral opinion. Considering the way you reacted in the Chinese thread after ONE report from AWST was posted,
and your prior attempts in this thread-where you made a generalized attack on all Indians, please dont attempt to stir the pot. I also note that you didnt respond to the latter part for quite some time, and only reappeared now, since you felt had a good chance of getting your own back.

In fact, I hadnt even remembered about the PRC thread and only checked up now and replied- I thought some would be debating the information in the article and pointing out discrepancies, but lo’ it was more of the usual from you & several other gentlemen.

Neptune could you please explain about the warning you got, becouse IF it was in the manner in which you have presented it and IF it was from Harry, then it is a disgusting abuse of power on his part.:confused:

So now its a campaign against Harry- how predictable. What next, Harry is- gawsh, horror of horrors, an Indian!

Very nice way to besmirch an individual- make comments about his judgement, load it with a suitable number of “IFS” and there you have it!

Meanwhile, no comments from you about the language etc. How very predictable.

The reality is that Indian Indigenous programmes have had a very troubled and expensive history with in many cases little tangible results. How many Trishuls, Arjuns, Tejas, Kaveris, indigenous submarines etc are in service?

The reality is that the PRC’s record, in many cases has been far worse- but considering that you cannot even take one AWST report and resort to commentary on the individual who points it out, I daresay you have some selective memory indeed. If I were to sit and type out how many programs worldwide have had issues, then it would be a long day indeed. But never mind that, shall we?

The Tejas is a program under development, ditto for the INs ATV. The Trishul project was completed, but delays and India’s increasing economic strength have allowed India to purchase superior alternatives. The status of the Arjun has already been posted above.

But never mind, such would never be the case anywhere else in the world. Nope, all milk and roses, and weapons development programs have been run on strict time and budget. Meanwhile, JSF anyone?

Very few if any and certainly not enough to justifie the expense.

A comment which is absolutely wrong and displays little understanding of the amounts India has spent on them, as well as their current progress, but then I daresay I didnt expect any better.

What makes your comment even more amusing is the fact that you have little to no data on what the PRC has spent on its internal weapons development, bar what others report on it.

If you have any authoritative internal accounts to the contrary, we would be glad to see it. Since, obviously, any external accounts which are less than glowing, would elicit your outrage. :rolleyes:

But there have also been succeses’ notably in the sonar department (Indian Sonars now being installed on Kilos), the recent test of an ABM, The Tejas is now starting to show promise but could still do with more commitment from the IAF. The joint projects in paticular are having results as well things like Brahmos are great achievements. Add to this the ballistic missiles, and things like Pinaka and you see that there is a very mixed picture. Ultimately though, however you dress it up the IN is still reliant on foreign systems (weapons in paticular) and on foreign support for naval ship design.:)

Very nice attempt to “bring a balance” in order to redress the very poorly thought out and researched comments earlier, but I daresay you still have a mile to go before you can pull that off with more finesse.

I would be glad to discuss most of these programs (bar the fact the current forum template does not permit it, otherwise my replies would indeed quote line and verse), but its a simple fact that most of India’s high profile projects that it has undertaken have indeed delivered, whether it be ballistic missiles as well as EW projects or radars.

The handful of cherrypicked programs you pulled out, were ALREADY quoted by I and Harry earlier on in this thread, but then again- since you posted it now, it probably becomes authoritative.

Please yourself. :rolleyes:

Coming to the foreign assistance, bit- which is your most amusing assertion, I would be glad to see one country bar of course, the US, which is cent per cent vertically integrated or can achieve it. The PRC is also dependent on foreign assistance, but then again- we have a plethora of information from the Indian side, I dont expect you would be able to provide similar data on the PRCs side would you SeaLord? Such mundane stuff as Govt accounts for tech transfer, external assistance and the like?

I think not. What you can do, however, is stir the pot some.

In the meantime, the continuing Indian weapons programs which are high profile do attract bad press, and so would they. After all, thats the job of the media- to keep the decision makers on their toes, even if some of the data is woefully ignorant.

I (and many others) remember how badly the UK press slagged the Eurofighter and other high profile programs (Bowsman anyone?), till they were delivered. But lets not facts get in the way, shall we.

Nick, considering your efforts in the Chinese military speculation thread, you are in no position to lecture people about flame wars.

Neptune could you please explain about the warning you got, becouse IF it was in the manner in which you have presented it and IF it was from Harry, then it is a disgusting abuse of power on his part.:confused:

The reality is that Indian Indigenous programmes have had a very troubled and expensive history with in many cases little tangible results. How many Trishuls, Arjuns, Tejas, Kaveris, indigenous submarines etc are in service? Very few if any and certainly not enough to justifie the expense. But there have also been succeses’ notably in the sonar department (Indian Sonars now being installed on Kilos), the recent test of an ABM, The Tejas is now starting to show promise but could still do with more commitment from the IAF. The joint projects in paticular are having results as well things like Brahmos are great achievements. Add to this the ballistic missiles, and things like Pinaka and you see that there is a very mixed picture. Ultimately though, however you dress it up the IN is still reliant on foreign systems (weapons in paticular) and on foreign support for naval ship design.:)

No answer eh? On a shipping forum where people claim to know about ships or at least be interested in them I’d have thought a basic understanding of ship construction may be found?:confused: OK, an easier one, why do you put a propellor at the stern?:confused: Or am I pissing in the wind thinking your knowledge might extend beyond memorising tech lists off the web and PR guff?:confused:

No, you dont get off that easy. Answer the questions asked of you, behave in a decent manner, and then you might be treated to a civilized debate, which frankly, you have shown little ability so far to conduct. As I said before, you made some extremely silly, and intentionally provocative comments viz. the topic under question, re: the indigenous content and nature of the Indian arms industry. When it was shown that you didnt know about it, off you went to this useless charade. Bluff and charade work well in magic shows, not in the public space. What next, a musical band and dancing bears, because you made some boo-boo in a presentation to your boss?:rolleyes:

Turbinia, according to this warning I had ro reread the forum rules and all of a sudden I found out this forum is for people that are interested in ships NEXT to aircraft. I guess we don’t belong here (although I know turbines extend to aircraft too). Better get to a different board my friend, you know where to go.
For me it’s not at all necessary to point anything out to children. Can’t expect to be considered the boss over here as you’re not Indian nor Chinese and you’re not dreaming enough.
Let’s get back to shipbuilding in our hidden agenda’s because these guys over here think it’s smarter to assume their enemy is weaker than them.

Neptune, that pitiful cover-myself-now-that-enough-people-have-noticed-it sort of commentary is very interesting, but the fact of the matter is simple:

1. You have a big chip on your shoulder and are unable to conduct a polite debate when challenged on your opinion. Rudeness and comments on how your comments are justified because other posters are stupid, is NOT an answer.Trying to provoke silly flamewars, of the kind that Indian and PRC posters have avoided on the IN vs PRC Navy, is also not appreciated.

2. Trying to insinuate that you and Turbinia automatically have the right to use silly and provocative talk which belongs in the schoolyard (“you must be p-p ing, your weener this that) even when somebody tries to address provocative questions politely (as Harry and I did) is also not likely to get you and your friend, appreciation.

3. I dont believe you have an agenda, but I do believe you have an urge to patronize. That urge is visible in the Korean thread, and several others throughout, wherein for no reason at all, you pick up on some topic and then start talking of how xyz is being nationalistic, and you of course know better and etc etc. There is no reason for you to constantly patronize other people, irrespective of Belgium’s (or whichever country you wish to tom tom) achievements or not. Surely, you can create a love Belgium’s nautical industry thread if you feel that is underappreciated.

4. Any forum runs on mutual respect. Constantly calling others (who dont share your point of view) children, or implying that you have been discriminated against even when your acquaintance, “Turbinia” started on his provocative commentary and schoolyard language, with you continuing in that vein, is also not likely to gain appreciation.

Also, by acting in this manner, you provoke intemperate replies- which you then point to and say, “aha, thats why I act like the way I do” and try to paint all those who rebut your comments, in the same light. Seriously, do you think that this debating tactic is somehow unnoticeable?

5. The issue is not with the forum, its with your insistence that you be given the right to behave in whatever manner you see fit without other members calling you and your mates on it. That, is very unlikely to happen.

6. Your opinion as a member is welcome, so are your insights and whatever commentary you put forth. You would notice that nobody seeks to mock you and belittle you either and you are indeed asked pertinent queries and thanked for them. But if you constantly seek fights and then say that your rudeness is justified, members here will continue to disagree.

Have a good day.