US-funded RAF Hunters

…69 Shackleton M.R.2.

Interesting.

I seem to remember a few years back, when the IWM put the Shackleton up for disposal, they subsequently said that there was some issue over who actually owned it.

87xB-29: 9 survived ELINT/Signals and were shot up at Foulness, 1958. We wrote off 6; 2 to RAAF (atomic prog); rest back to Davis-Monthan.
52xP2V: we wrote off 5; 22 transferred by DoD to Arg/Brazil; 25 scrapped (Silloth), 4 dumped Failsworth, others Forres.
“sweet”: not only “for Poms”. Mao declared liberation of the People’s Republic, 1/10/49;Congress, 6/10/49, passed the Mutual Defense Assistance Act, first beneficiary: France (F8F-1D for Indo-China). Much followed inc. R&D+production of Nord Noratlas and supply (utterly duplicatory) C-119F. The Nord ATGW business was part-US-funded. So was almost everything France used against Nasser, 11/56.

UK/US Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement was 27/1/50: 1st. announcement was 70 (became 87) B-29. Money then cascaded until 30/6/55. Not only Aero (e.g: Denmark received Chieftain tanks). I have these:

FAA: (one source: “some” Attackers: 60 F.B.2s were contracted after 1/50. Not in Leigh-Phippard);
100xTBM-3C/E Avenger;
50xAD-4W Skyraider;
20 Hiller 360 HTE-2;
59 Sikorsky HO3S-1 (licenced as WS.51 H.R.3);
25 Sikorsky HRS-2/HO4S-1, +34 licenced as WS.55 H.A.R.1/3;
18 Bell HSL-1 (abandoned);
253 Gannet A.S.1-6 (+16, Bundesmarine);
107 Sea Hawk F.B.3 (+68, Bundesmarine; +22 R.Neth.N);
257 Sea Venom (+ Sud licence, 117, as Aquilon);
30 Seamew A.S.1 (abandoned);
119 Sea Vixen F(AW)1.

RAF: (B-29, P2V-5/7, F-86E, Hunter, all discussed above. Flocks of Swifts, RAF/RBAF/R.NethAF {and 115 for new Luftwaffe} all canx.):
69 Shackleton M.R.2;
30 Seamew M.R.2 (abandoned);
24 Sikorsky H-19A (licenced as WS.55 H.A.R.2/4);
550 Meteor N.F.11-14 (+20, RDan.AF; +25, + 16 retreads, FAF; 24 RBAF retreads);
>300 Javelin;
768 Canberra B.2-P.R.7;
104 Valiant – 50% of total production cost.

IIRC there have been photos posted on this forum by members of Neptune remains, including a nose section, from the scrapyard at Failsworth.

…they don’t seem to get much mention anywhere (rather like the UK Skyraiders and Sabres).

There’s a lovely book on RAF Sabres by Duncan Curtis that goes into a lot of detail regarding their US funding. Still a few on Amazon I see.

Neptunes scrapped at Silloth? Somewhere in the distant memory that seems to ring a bell.

The topic of the US taxpayers funding the Royal Air Force came up recently in a thread here on the WONZ Forum
http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/21526/ummmmmm

I’d not heard of it till David Duxbury mentioned it. Rather interesting how they were paying for British aircraft. Sweet deal for the Poms.

What about the Lockheed Neptune and the B.50 Washington, weren’t they MAP funded as well?
Allan

The 52 Neptunes were MAP-funded, the Washington weren’t funded, just a loan….unless the US gave funds for their operation.
The Washingtons were surplus B-29s (not B-50s), so they were already built and didn’t need MAP funds.

I’d like to learn more about RAF Neptunes, they don’t seem to get much mention anywhere (rather like the UK Skyraiders and Sabres).
They were only used five years so the airframes should have had a lot of life left when they were retired.
Eight went to Argentina and 14 went to Brazil. Does anyone know of the fate of the other 30 ex-RAF ac?

What about the Lockheed Neptune and the B.50 Washington, weren’t they MAP funded as well?

Allan

Canada’s involvement in Mutual Aid is in Lord Ismay, NATO, the First Five Years, 1954 (also www.nato.int/archives/1stfive years/chapters/12.htm.) : “500 Sabres…every European member nation…has been the beneficiary of Canadian military assistance.”

31 RDanAF Hunters were 30 new build Mk.51 plus diverted F.4 WW591. The way all this was administered was that industry received orders in local currency (so, UK Ministry of Supply, the Danish Govt. and others ordered Hunters on Hawker in £), and US put $ into the National Treasuries. Just how that money was secured, or linked to, precise “end-items” was negotiated: so at phase-out, sometimes kit was claimed by US DoD (RAF Sabres were overhauled and passed on elsewhere; most B-29s, all Corporal SSMs were returned to US), sometimes not, but disposal was determined by DoD (see Coley-the-scrapman’s piles of Hunter F.4s, Gannets et al. We could not sell/gift them as we might choose). Leigh-Phippard,P.138, has an irate Ike telling Congress, 5/3/54, that he had “directed the continuance of aid to…Denmark…despite (their) export of strategic materials to Eastern Europe”.

The Flixton Hunter was a US MDAP airframe which made a little bit of difficulty when it came up for disposal

Apologies if I misunderstood the Danish Hunter situation, I always thought that special approval had been obtained to return them via Dunsfold rather than through Sculthorpe – obviously I was working on incorrect information! 😮

The Danish Hunters were bought and paid for by the Danish government. All survivors except one were sold back to Hawker-Siddeley in the mid-70ies, who found that there was not really any market for passing them on in refurbished condition. Hence, they mostly ended up with museums in the UK, and with private owners.

#3 Easier to ask: what, during the Korean War, did US NOT part-fund under (MDAP; 10/51: ) MSP?

446 Sabre F-86E airframes (8 crashed en route) were Canadian-funded (engines: US) for RAF.

RAF Sabres were Canadian-built, but 100% MAP-funded, aside from (if memory serves) certain avionics in the Fighter Command aircraft.

UK MAP

#3 Easier to ask: what, during the Korean War, did US NOT part-fund under (MDAP; 10/51: ) MSP?

Swift and Hunter were designated as NATO-Standard. US paid 100% of the R&D bill for Hunter F.6, amounting to $1.4Mn. over the period 8/54-6/56; 100% of the production cost of 450 Hunters (367 RAF F.4; 31 RDan.AF; 64 Fairey SA-built; 48 Fokker-built). 430 Sabre F-86E airframes were Canadian-funded (engines: US) for RAF. The list is endless (e.g 50% of 1st. 25 Valiants). PM Attlee had committed to a Defence budget >10% of UK sparse GDP (a factor in losing 10/51 General Election: his own party {Nye Bevan} objected that >£4bn. over 3 years could not actually be spent), so US stepped up. Some machine tools thus provided by US taxpayers were still in use (in France, too) to build the Airbus A300Bs that helped to unemploy some of them.
.

(Best source is an obscure academic work: H Leigh-Phippard, Congress & US Miliary Aid to Britain, Macmillan,1995. Please dismiss all rants about US trying to do down UK Aero. Sabre split, Canada/US is at P.90, R.T.Wakelam, Cold War Fighters, UBCP, 2012)

A lot of the Canberras were MAP funded, which caused some problems later in choosing appropriate airframes for refurbishing and export.

I’ll leave this thread up in case it is of interest to others – I for one wasn’t aware that the RAF received any MAP-funded aircraft.

Weren’t the Canadair Sabres US funded?

Thank you for the ‘by-location’ link Mike – more disk space filled!! 😀

No, they are both ex-RAF F.6s. Interesting, I appear to have answered my own question with a bit of Googling.

From: http://hunterxf382.weebly.com/history.html

I’ll leave this thread up in case it is of interest to others – I for one wasn’t aware that the RAF received any MAP-funded aircraft.

RAF Sabres were all MAP-funded, and certainly a good many Hunters. In fact I think the Hunters were aimed at being a one-for-one swap with the Sabres, but (like the original intent for the Sabres) mainly those in 2TAF.

On a similar vein, one of our lightweight landrovers had NATO funded painted on the front bumper.

There’s one by location too, in case it is of interest as well: http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-130115-046.pdf