US Marines showing their "love" for the local fauna

Just because I accept that they might not have intended to hurt the goat does not mean I accept that sticking a IED under an animal is a good idea, because I dont, no matter which way you look at it, its still cruel and abusive. Obviously times have changed and it is now acceptable for troops to run around doing stupid tricks like this. Oh well never mind.

As for being a “Parade Ground Rupert”, fine no problem, all I know is being a rule book basher meant I never had an accident and neither did anyone around me that I was responsible for (for the record, I did something stupid with a thunderflash and got hurt, then vowed never to break the rules again so not everyone starts life with the book impregnated in their brain).

Finally, and I presume you are referring to the Government here “The irony in that case would be that it would be the self-same electorate criticising them for losing the war that would have caused them to lose it in the first place.” I personally would critisise the Gov for what theyve done, but I would never critisise our troops for doing their job, win or loose, because you are correct, if we loose this one, it wont be down to the troops one bit, it will be down to the incompetent baffoons in Westminster & Washington. Bex

Kev

I consider myself to have at least a partial sense of humour but I have never had the urge, even in childhood, to make things go bang. So maybe it is a service thing.

Possibly…possibly not. As part of a gang of bored grammar school lads, with a bad combination of too much summer holiday time and the proverbial ‘good idea’, we knocked together our first batch of home-made black powder when we were about 13-14 and proceeded to blow a 2ft crater in a mates back garden…narrowly avoiding peppering his sister with shrapnel from the empty paint can we used as a casing!. Perhaps that isnt as ‘normal’ as I thought it was???.

I know what you are saying about the service people you have spoken to being singularly unimpressed by their experience over there. I have a mate who’s deploying to Basra in November and is only happy about it cos her other choice was Falklands!. Again, as you say, its anecdotal and I guess it depends on what individuals have seen on their tours. The guy I was talking about with the detcord ended up feeling a deep affinity with the people he encountered in Bosnia and, some years later, when he was stationed back in Germany he met up with a girl from those parts and ended up marrying her.

All I was saying was that there are many service people who do see we have a job to do over there and who sincerely do want to see us ‘do the right thing’ by people they were told that they were going out to help. This is more prevalent in those that served in Afghanistan than Basra I think, but, I know lads who’ve got good things to say about the Iraqi’s too.

one wonders exactly what retention rates are for personnel who have served in Iraq/Afghanistan compared to those who fought in the South Atlantic 25 years ago?

Its funny, in a way, I work with a bloke who was on Shiney Sheff when she got hit in 82 – his duty station was even in the Computer Room where the missile hit – he’s often talked about the the mood prevalent on transit south. There were common remarks about fighting for a bunch of rocks nobody had ever even heard of. When they were there they just got on with the jobs they were paid to do until they got hit. After that they had a personal stake in the fight and the war took on a new complexion.

For retention rates you cant really compare I dont think. Everyone loves a winner…the RN came away from the Falklands with renewed sense of pride and that filtered all the way through the ranks…of course retention would be high in those circumstances. In Afghanistan and Iraq the definition of success is not so easily defined or quantified. There is little chance of a clear-cut win against insurgent forces or guerilla’s. There is also the chance of the UK electorate forcing them to ‘lose’ the war by pulling them out and letting the other side take the spoils. The irony in that case would be that it would be the self-same electorate criticising them for losing the war that would have caused them to lose it in the first place.

Jonesy.

I consider myself to have at least a partial sense of humour but I have never had the urge, even in childhood, to make things go bang. So maybe it is a service thing.

This thread bought back a memory of my days in the Cadets though. Twelve Cadets stood to attention on the range whilst range Officer approaches in turn when we utter the unforgettable lines “I have no live rounds, misfires or empty cartridge cases in my posession Sir!” By the time the first one in line had finished the last one in line would be beginning. Used to sound like a demented version of Frere – Jacques!

One interesting point you bring up is that in your experience most service personnel want to be in Iraq and Afghanistan and believe they are doing a worthwhile job. Anecdotal I know, but the three people i know who have served in either. or in one case, both places, have all stated quite vehemntly that neither place is worth dying for. Indeed, they displayed an attitude not unlike the majority of American servicemen in Vietnam. They weren’t fighting to save/liberate/support the Country they were in, rather they were fighting to get each other home safe at tour’s end.

Interestingly, a front page story in the local press this week regarding a local Serviceman who has just been awarded the M.C. ended with a statement that he was now waiting to see if his application for the Fire Service had been successful. Backed up by the BBC news item last night that our Armed Forces are seriously overstretched with the Army alone being some 2,500 under strength, one wonders exactly what retention rates are for personnel who have served in Iraq/Afghanistan compared to those who fought in the South Atlantic 25 years ago?

Meandering off topic I know but interesting nonetheless.

Any thoughts Jonesy?

Regards,

kev35

Bex,

Finally, your friends actions with said detchord, was the last time I checked, an offence under Queens Regs. “I have no live rounds or empty cases in my possession, pyrotechnics or parts there of” blah de blah

Yes and……?. His ‘special ball of plasticine’ was entirely against Queens Regs as well…a more sizeable private collection of PE4 I’ve never seen!. Could tell you of many stories of regs being bent entirely out of shape because that is the nature of the service, all branches, always has been and always will be. Now you can get all parochial about this like some parade-ground rupert if you want but it will change nothing!.

The point through all this that you are clearly not getting, Bex, is that the video clip originally presented on this thread shows nothing more than a bunch of lads cutting loose a bit in a way not unrecognisable to any serviceman in the world. You accept above that there was no willful intent to maim or injure the goat…yet you have how many posts here deriding these Marines for animal cruelty. Which is it then?. By your own comment above you contradict yourself. If you accept that no intent existed to hurt the animal what are you really having a crack at these lads for?. Surely not because they are having a laugh? How unprofessional! FFS.:eek:

You have young Americans, Brits and soldiers of other nationalities courageous enough to fight for their Country and to do their Government’s bidding. I think it’s now time these Governments acknowledged the sacrifice and the waste and brought all these courageous young men and women home. If they are to die, at least give them the dignity of fighting for something worth dying for. I totally agree with you, I have at present off the top of my head atleast 6 friends in the same Regiment who are in and out of Iraq & Afghanistan like a yo yo, plus 2 more flying for AAC & FAA.
Further more I would like to draw your attention to my comments on the GD forum about Forces Hospitals. Ok I dont agree with the UK & US present military Ops but it doesnt mean I dont give my total support to any troops in theatre, theyre doing a cracking job in very differcult circumstances.

its not abnormal for service personnel to behave in such a fashion. Obviously I was trained wrong then by my dad, and then those we both trained for many years we have instilled the wrong values.

The goats presence here is incidental…if the aim was to kill or mutilate the goat, which is the assumption some seem to be leaping to here (and is the thing I find objectionable), then they failed spectacularly…why did they not just tie their little IED round the goats neck?. The way I see this is that they just wanted to have a giggle with something explosive. I dont believe any one has stated that the aim was to blow the goat up, I for one can think of easier and far more interesting ways of doing that, but I was always tought to be careful and not to play around with things that go bang

I understand that because I’ve done it!. One of my mates came back from Boz with a couple of hundred yards of detcord and it was his party piece, with some able assistance, to cut the grass on his lawn with it!. I can only assume that u and your friend never saw the SSVC video “An Unthinking Moment” narrated by Shaw Taylor then? I draw your attention to one part of the film then….. a section was disposing of det chord at End Ex and the Sgt I/C had other things to do, section got bored chucked whole lot in fire instead of a bit at a time and blew themselves to bits, Sgt then got busted. Good film that, I scared the pants off many a new recruit with it. Finally, your friends actions with said detchord, was the last time I checked, an offence under Queens Regs. “I have no live rounds or empty cases in my possession, pyrotechnics or parts there of” blah de blah Bex

Ahhhh….. now we get to the root of the matter.

Jonesy (and the USMC) saving the world from the menace of Fundamentalist Goatdom 😎

Bloody hate goats…little obnoxious bleaty things. A goat bit my little girls hand a few years back just because she was trying to feed a little baby goat first….deserve all they get goats do! :diablo:

Come on, Jonesy.

You wouldn’t take such a relaxed attitude if it was your goat….. :diablo:

Kev

I still think it’s a cruel and stupid thing to do. But more concerning is the indiscipline which allows/encourages soldiers to do such things.

Thing is though Kev its not abnormal for service personnel to behave in such a fashion. The goats presence here is incidental…if the aim was to kill or mutilate the goat, which is the assumption some seem to be leaping to here (and is the thing I find objectionable), then they failed spectacularly…why did they not just tie their little IED round the goats neck?. The way I see this is that they just wanted to have a giggle with something explosive. I understand that because I’ve done it!. One of my mates came back from Boz with a couple of hundred yards of detcord and it was his party piece, with some able assistance, to cut the grass on his lawn with it!.

Irresponsible yes of course it was….but funny as hell and it helped a good lad readjust after witnessing some god awful scenes. Now a load of civvies might want to condemn that if they wish, they have every right, after all I hate to think of the number of grasshoppers we surely did slaughter and we never, I am ashamed to admit, put out leaflets advising responsible pet owners to keep Tiddles or Rover inside that day!!.Fact is though on the day we wouldnt have given a toss what ‘Concerned of West Sussex’ would have said about our actions because what we were doing was so much more important. If you cannot understand why then I’m afraid I cannot explain it – it must be a service thing.

In answer to your comment re American bashing, whatever you think of me , nothing was further from my mind.

In no way was that levelled in your direction Kev. Sorry if you got the impression I was hitting you with such a generalist swipe.

You have young Americans, Brits and soldiers of other nationalities courageous enough to fight for their Country and to do their Government’s bidding. I think it’s now time these Governments acknowledged the sacrifice and the waste and brought all these courageous young men and women home. If they are to die, at least give them the dignity of fighting for something worth dying for.

Good sentiments Kev, but, I think that a lot of serving personel wouldnt thank you for it. They, at least some I’ve spoken to, dont see the political manoevering and bickering or the fashionable antiwar rhetoric of the chattering classes. They see the effects of ‘freedom fighters’ terrorising and brutalising their own people and want to make them pay for it. They see the kids wandering round playing with live ordnance they’ve scrounged up somewhere, they see the communities of decent normal people who’re trying to get themselves put back on their feet and they see it as their job to help with that. If for no other reason that its the right thing to do.

Cheers

…. You have young Americans, Brits and soldiers of other nationalities courageous enough to fight for their Country and to do their Government’s bidding. I think it’s now time these Governments acknowledged the sacrifice and the waste and brought all these courageous young men and women home. If they are to die, at least give them the dignity of fighting for something worth dying for…..

Well said, Kev.

Very well said indeed.

Bex.

Here’s a link to the ASPCA.

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cruelty_report

Report the video to them and see what they have to see. Just remember to add the youtube link when you email them.

Jonesy.

I still think it’s a cruel and stupid thing to do. But more concerning is the indiscipline which allows/encourages soldiers to do such things. God knows they almost certainly don’t want to be there wasting their lives in penny packets for **** all but is scaring a goat really going to improve the way they feel about being in that God forsaken hole in the first place?

In answer to your comment re American bashing, whatever you think of me , nothing was further from my mind. You have young Americans, Brits and soldiers of other nationalities courageous enough to fight for their Country and to do their Government’s bidding. I think it’s now time these Governments acknowledged the sacrifice and the waste and brought all these courageous young men and women home. If they are to die, at least give them the dignity of fighting for something worth dying for.

Regards,

kev35

Hi Kev,

Yep on the point about them acting in direct contravention to standing orders they are clearly in the mire – no argument there.

The problem here is though that no-one else really cared about that, hand on heart, most of them would have to admit to not giving much of a damn about this specific goat – they just wanted to have a pop at the Americans and, by god, they were not going to let little details like the actual lack of animal cruelty shown in the video get in the way of them having a jolly good whinge!.

Now, seeings as the ‘animal cruelty’ thing is looking a little flimsy they are leaping on the bandwagon, you have so conveniently provided, of the contravention of standing orders and some spurious references to hearts and minds!.

More and more Monty Python as this progresses if you ask me!!!

Steve, I do believe that the issue of the troops disobeying orders about posting videos on the internet has been discussed which I do believe is one of the reasons why the video has been reported to the Pentagon by Pete Truman.

If anyone wanted to have a pop at the Americans then Im pretty sure it would have happened, I know I havent (but if I wanted to I would)

Im pretty sure if this video was shown to animal welfare officer either in the US or UK theyd throw a wobbly.

Hearts and Minds, oh yes, that theory didnt work in SE Asia or Northern Ireland (just so I dont accused of American bashing), so pretty much guarenteed it aint gonna work this time round, but the idiots running the show seem to think its a great idea as they always do when not on the front line.

The Monty Python gang could probably run the war better than those who are at the moment.

Bex

The point, whether you’re into frightening goats or not, is being entirely missed here.

If, as DJJ suggests in his post on page one, that an order was given by the American Government/Military that no further videos were to be posted on sites like Youtube, then those soldiers who contrived to post that video are therefore guilty of breaking a direct order.

If so, aren’t they likely then to face charges of something like conduct unbecoming or conduct prejudicial?

Regards,

kev35

Hi Kev,

Yep on the point about them acting in direct contravention to standing orders they are clearly in the mire – no argument there.

The problem here is though that no-one else really cared about that, hand on heart, most of them would have to admit to not giving much of a damn about this specific goat – they just wanted to have a pop at the Americans and, by god, they were not going to let little details like the actual lack of animal cruelty shown in the video get in the way of them having a jolly good whinge!.

Now, seeings as the ‘animal cruelty’ thing is looking a little flimsy they are leaping on the bandwagon, you have so conveniently provided, of the contravention of standing orders and some spurious references to hearts and minds!.

More and more Monty Python as this progresses if you ask me!!!

The point, whether you’re into frightening goats or not, is being entirely missed here.

If, as DJJ suggests in his post on page one, that an order was given by the American Government/Military that no further videos were to be posted on sites like Youtube, then those soldiers who contrived to post that video are therefore guilty of breaking a direct order.

If so, aren’t they likely then to face charges of something like conduct unbecoming or conduct prejudicial?

Regards,

kev35

This is perfectly true Kev, this point has been lost on considerations of animal cruelty and general pee taking, it should all be down to general military discipline, subsequent boundaries, and of course ‘Winning hearts and minds’.
It may seem a bit of a joke to some people, but it’s all down really to the breakdown of military codes and attitudes and, in a place like this, the rot can start at something simple like this, poo poo it if you like but unfortunately, and I can’t speak from experience here, they don’t seem to represent the John Wayne type gentlemen that took Iwo Jima, or did they sit on the lava and shoot lizards, not if they wanted to survive and win they didn’t.

The point, whether you’re into frightening goats or not, is being entirely missed here.

If, as DJJ suggests in his post on page one, that an order was given by the American Government/Military that no further videos were to be posted on sites like Youtube, then those soldiers who contrived to post that video are therefore guilty of breaking a direct order.

If so, aren’t they likely then to face charges of something like conduct unbecoming or conduct prejudicial?

Regards,

kev35

What animal cruelty?. The modest startling of one goat? Or is it the destruction of habitat you are concerned about?. Could it be the poor defenceless bush that got blown up could potentially be home to several rare species?.

Good lord man I think your environmental crusade should be a lot more successful if you started a bit further up the offenders list than a few lads kicking back with an MRE bomb!

I consider sticking an MRE bomb under a goats bum to be abuse, I not on an enviromental campaign, I like noisey smelly aeroplanes jet & piston & steam & diesel trains too much oh and I like seriously silly modded cars too.

I also think the proper authorities should be aware of the immature behaviour of troops that will undoubtly cause bad publicity in a campaign that is not exactly the most popular either side of the Atlantic. Besides if someone can throw their toys over a cartoon drawing, who knows what damage could be caused by a locals animal being used for amusement of their so called “Saviours”. Thats my view anyways. Bex

What animal cruelty?. The modest startling of one goat? Or is it the destruction of habitat you are concerned about?. Could it be the poor defenceless bush that got blown up could potentially be home to several rare species?.

Good lord man I think your environmental crusade should be a lot more successful if you started a bit further up the offenders list than a few lads kicking back with an MRE bomb!

I say again – are you being serious here?. Yes

These lads are front line troops in a hostile environment – I think they know a damnsight more about responsibility and common sense than most who live pedestrian civvy lives, secure and comfortable, threatened only by the gang of 15yr old hoodies down the street!. True, not desputing that

If they are having a laugh, causing no harm – apart from perhaps to the bush they exploded and giving a bit of a fright to a particularly inquisitive goat – how does it become an issue warranting 60-odd posts on this board crucifying them for their wanton cruelty?. I thought animal cruelty & abuse was illegal

Have you considered that by letting off steam in this fashion they are, in fact, managing their stress levels and, at the price of a moderate startling of one goat, those troops may be better prepared mentally to deal with the next difficult situation they face with people?. Perhaps the mentality of soldiers has changed since 1963 when my dad joined up. Never mind its only an animal. Bex

What happened to common decency, common sense and grown men acting their age

I say again – are you being serious here?.

These lads are front line troops in a hostile environment – I think they know a damnsight more about responsibility and common sense than most who live pedestrian civvy lives, secure and comfortable, threatened only by the gang of 15yr old hoodies down the street!.

If they are having a laugh, causing no harm – apart from perhaps to the bush they exploded and giving a bit of a fright to a particularly inquisitive goat – how does it become an issue warranting 60-odd posts on this board crucifying them for their wanton cruelty?.

Have you considered that by letting off steam in this fashion they are, in fact, managing their stress levels and, at the price of a moderate startling of one goat, those troops may be better prepared mentally to deal with the next difficult situation they face with people?.

What happened to common decency, common sense and grown men acting their age and not their shoe size? Ok its an animal, Im not vegitarian or a happy clappy love the plants space cadet, but obviously I was brought up wrong by a man who believes in Honour, Respect & Decency. Bex