USAAF losses from UK WW2

And the terrifying thing about Madingley is that those hundreds of white stones are “just” those whose bodies came back to England to be buried. It’s only when you turn around and see the names on the wall that you begin to realise just how many men have no known grave… and then there are the ones buried abroad… I think the reason the memorial at Duxford works so well is because it’s NOT obvious what they are – they are nice decorative panels – and only when you find the key and read it do you realise what it’s REALLY about. Once you have walked past all those dozens of panels…

I have recently been working on a listing of all fatal losses of the Polish Air Force in WW2. Although much smaller than the USAAF, it neverthless provides some comparison as to the proportions. I don’t have my data at hand, but I would say that combat and non-combat losses were of the same order. So if one source quotes the number of men killed while flying from UK this might include both combat casualties and accidents. And when the other source quotes combat losses this probably includes both those killed, taken PoW, and posted missing.

For another project I have recently done a statistic breakdown of Polish Spitfire losses which provides some comparison of proportions (although of course it is hard to compare actual figures between bombers and fighters):
I have identifired a total of some 850 cases of aircraft destroyed or damaged in combat (of which 300 a/c were destroyed or lost compeltely), and the pilot’s fates were as follows:
135 killed
76 wounded (of whom about half were in aircraft considered destroyed)
61 PoW
14 rescued from the sea
26 missing, but evaded capture and returned

Hi Moggy & Trumper,
I just saw your posts. Last school year another man ( he was a waist gunner and was shot down and spent time as a POW)and myself spoke in 11 high schools in our county. The title of our presentation was THE AIR WAR IN EUROPE, we gave them some statistics, told a few stories followed by questions and answers. It went over quite well, the mentors enjoyed it more then the students.

Statistics– 8th and 15th Air Force–B17 & B24 heavies–94,000 KIA, missing, POWs, wounded
15th A.F.—less then 1 1/2 years, of 4951 heavies 2380 were shot down
B17—12,731 were built 4,750 with 10 man crews were lost
All types of U.S aircraft in Europe—-18,369 were lost
More heavies were lost to flak then to enemy fighters
Temperatures at 25,000 feet was -50 to -60F
15th 8th
Total air crews 19,176 21,000
% killed 14.09 8.4

In 1942-43 survival rate made by 8th AF was 35% for unescorted missions
1942-43 8th AF flew a tour of 25 missions for unescorted missions
12-15th AF flew a tour of 50 missions for unescorted missions
Note— Once P51 Mustangs came to the theatres the loss to enemy fighters dropped dramatically

Hi Gnome,i do wonder where the statistics come from as there are never really sources that agree with each other.I wonder whether they include a different way of counting or percieving losses.
We have all heard tales of claims made thoughout the war by pilots and gunners and when the claims are looked into in depth you find that the same victim was claimed by many different gunners and pilots.
If the truth is told we will probably never really know the real casualty list,whatever it is it was too high.
All the best,hope you find something conclusive 🙂

Hmm … interesting and I also have no reason to doubt them or you Trumper. The data I posted I found on the internet which I believe should always be taken with at least a handful of salt. So I shall look more carefully into those other data and see what I can puzzle out (which I want to do anyway for other reasons). There may be definitional issues, for example, the Strategic Bombing Survey refers to “losses” – what are they? I will repost here only if/when I have something more to add.

http://mighty8thaf.preller.us/php/1Loc.php?Base=Duxford I quoted from this page,if you read the link.I have no reason to dispute the American Air Museum and the people that planned and built the glass wall plaques at Duxford.
You may be better taking it up with the them or the people you got your link from.

Moggy

I see in Trumper’s post above he talks of 30,000 Americans who died while flying from the UK. The website I’ve noted below which contains the “Army Air Forces Statistical Digest, World War II” says … [and I’m quoting here the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of Sep 30, 1945 re European Theatre of operations]

[quote] In the attack by Allied air power, almost 2,700,000 tons of bombs were dropped, more than 1,440,000 bomber sorties and 2,680,000 fighter sorties were flown. The number of combat planes reached a peak of some 28,000 and at the maximum 1,300,000 men were in combat commands. The number of men lost in air action was 79,265 Americans and 79,281 British. (Note: All RAF statistics are preliminary or tentative.) More than 18,000 American and 22,000 British planes were lost or damaged beyond repair. [unquote]

Now this is referring to the European theatre which would undoubtedly therefore include Italian and other Mediterranean bases, but even so the numbers don’t seem very “line-ball” as they say.

How sure of what you posted are you Trumper?

http://www.usaaf.net/digest/operations.htm

My attitude to war cemeteries sometimes gives me cause for concern.

They are generally such moving and peaceful places that the sheer beauty of the setting leads you to forget the horror and squalor that lead to the graves being there in the first place.

Then, when you see the veterans, old and painfully hobbling around the headstones it crosses the mind how ‘lucky’ are those that die young, forever fit and strong and remembered as such. “They shall not grow old….”

Sheer nonsense of course, because they were robbed of the life they were entitled to. A terrible crime.

The Duxford wall is altogether starker and more fearsome. I invariably pause at the 388th panel and reflect on those 179 aircraft that left the strip I now fly from in peace. Thinking that each of those little inscribed aircraft were actually Fortress size and the thunder of their engines once rolled over the field that my puny Lycoming hardly touches…

Moggy

It makes you realise the sheer scale of losses when you see that and also all the white crosses at Madingley American cemetary,a whole generation of young men,what a loss and cost to life.

Spot on. Question answered 🙂

Thanks

Moggy

According to this web page it states 30,000 aircrew but it doesnt say how many aircraft.
http://aam.iwm.org.uk/server.php?show=nav.00h
The American Air Museum in Britain stands as a memorial to the 30,000 Americans who died flying from the UK in the Second World War. This outstanding example of contemporary British architecture houses Duxford’s unique collection of historic American combat aircraft including the B-17 Flying Fortress, with many suspended from the ceiling as if in flight.
Is this what your looking for? http://mighty8thaf.preller.us/php/1Loc.php?Base=Duxford

Probably the most moving memorial I have seen is located alongside the walkway up to the American Air Museum. Sculptor Renato Niemis has created “Counting the Cost” – 52 engraved plates of clear glass with 1/240 scale images of WWII aircraft – one for each aircraft that the 8th and 9th Air Forces, and the Navy lost during the war. These are arranged by unit, and stand vertically beside the path. DO NOT (as I did the first time) walk past thinking “What a pretty decorative wall.” These tall glass panels require you to stop and understand what they represent. It is easy to say that 7,031 planes were lost. After you see this, you will have a gut feeling for what that really means
Hope these help 🙂