USAirways Airbus Order

Always the same old song on this forum ……:rolleyes:

Moderator Message

Gentlemen….

This forum is not an appropriate place for Airbus or Boeing fanboys to indulge their peculiar prejudices.

Please take it somewhere where such behaviour is appreciated and leave the rest of us to have an intelligent discussion about commercial aviation.

Thank you.

GA

Actually, I think the real professionals give a **** when orders are announced, they just count in the end. And after all, it secures some additional attention and it is not in any way harmful for other companies. The “sand-bagged” orders are normally from a time-frame of 3 to 4 month. I remember some news suggesting that Airbus is in deep trouble as quarterly orders were far below Boeings.

Very bad taste.

Before you decry the “nationalism and the chauvinism of US airlines” look towards youself and your petty comments.

Seems pretty obvious to me that the implosion of its 747 departing from NY had a serious impact on the well-being of TWA. Seems also pretty obvious that the inquiry showed that the 747 tank/wirings has serious deffects.

Meaning that, contrary to what the author of this thread tried to show, Boeing can also drag a US company down. Now, if you want to challenges these facts, you are welcome to try !!!

Moderator Message

Ahem…..

This is getting silly now.

Please stick to discussing the issues and avoid personal attacks.

Thanks

GA

1) One of the reason it went down is that it operated self-imploding boeings. So so much for the far superior US airplanes.

Very bad taste.

Before you decry the “nationalism and the chauvinism of US airlines” look towards youself and your petty comments.

The more things change the more they stay the same…..memories of Eastern ordering A300’s and then failing and then PanAm ordering A310’s 10-15 years later and then failing. One can trace the failed U.S. carriers by their big Airbus orders. In fact, can anyone name a large U.S. carrier that has ever ordered/operated large numbers of Airbus widebodies and not gone out of business?

No doubt AI gave them a great deal up front, and then will really twist the knife when it comes to parts and support. But in the meantime everyone puts on a happy face, the employees at AI have work, and the USAirways people get new airplanes. Most of them probably don’t have any idea about the history and what it portends.

1) TWA went down without having ever operated any airbus. One of the reason it went down is that it operated self-imploding boeings. So so much for the far superior US airplanes (which does not mean that airbus does not have shortcomings and have never crashed).

2) Where you may be right, however, is that Boeing (and at the time Mcdouglas) had a tight monopoly on the US market. To break this monopoly, Airbus had to come up with sweet deals to attract some US airlines. But that is more a reflection of the nationalism and the chauvinism of US airlines and consumers than of Airbus having inferior products.

Don’t look at the airline, look at the bank behind it that gives the loan.

Maybe a French one, uh-oh.

Don’t look at the airline, look at the bank behind it that gives the loan.

Luckily for me, I’m not an accountant! 😀

The serious point I was making is that all airliner manufacturers offer sweeteners or inducements – call them what you will – to prospective customers simply to fill up the order book and bump up the share price.

Whether the shareholders are governments or financial institutions (or a mixture of both) they want to see a full order book and won’t ask too many questions about how the orders were obtained.

Maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s certainly the way that it is. 🙂

That’s a rather fine distinction, my friend!

Accounting and interest wise, it’s probably a huge distinction.:D

And I’d guess that to a cash-strapped airline (and most seem to be) a pile of notes is more useful than a cheaper price over the long life of a loan.

(Even if the “extra:” money is fed back into the plane’s purchase price, an airline could eventually replay it at a lower interest rate than borrowing the same amount of money from another source on a short term basis.
And I understand that Airbus has always offered very favorable finance terms.)

I’m no banker, but there’s a difference between discounts and “cash back” deals.

I would imagine that a cash rebate (kickback?) would help an airlines immediate cashflow needs.
Whereas a bulk discount is just that. It would lower the monthy payment on the aircraft, but not aid the immediate “botton line”.
As for discounts, asyou said, they’re given by all the jet makers.

That’s a rather fine distinction, my friend!

We give discounts, whereas they give kickbacks. 😎

So, how would you describe the huge discounts granted to Ryanair?
Or the factory-fresh A340s that Boeing bought from Singapore Airlines as part of the B777 deal?

I’m no banker, but there’s a difference between discounts and “cash back” deals.

I would imagine that a cash rebate (kickback?) would help an airlines immediate cashflow needs.
Whereas a bulk discount is just that. It would lower the monthy payment on the aircraft, but not aid the immediate “botton line”.
As for discounts, asyou said, they’re given by all the jet makers.

Moment Of Moderation

Ahem…. before we come over all Teutonic, can I remind you all of item 10 in the Code of Conduct – with which you will already be familiar, natürlich.

Yeah, right! :rolleyes:

GA

Then you can avoid my eiskalt manner.

Icy manner? you?:rolleyes: Ich spreche Deutch.

This is a stupid argument , airbus has also many other customers that are doing great buisness , are expanding every year , covering markets . The entire US carriers are down right now irrespective of boeign or airbus . AA , DL , NWA , UA are all doing quite badly and have been doing so since post 911 . Its the oversaturation of players that is causing this , there needs to be consolidation . Most of the US carriers that I have traveled on (Barring CO which has good service) are no where comparable to the class and service of some of the succesfull carriers out there . That is the reason why . There is over capacity , and the Low revenue PAX means that the airlines are making losses or doing very badly .

Exactly, the slight (dis)advantage of DJAHD’s aircraft doesn’t make somebody bankcrupt. If Airbus sells discounted aircraft to failing airlines, it would actually help the airline. If failing airlines turn to Airbus because of lower prices, Airbus can hardly be blamed for it. If somebody switches from Farmer Joe’s to Walmart for his daily nutrition, Walmart can harldy be held responsible for his financial downfall.

People, it is he Budlite that makes airlines going out of business. Sure.

4. Its a shame that anyone can reference a crash in which many people died in, shall we say, such an eiskalt manner.

Oh mein Gott. Why don’t you start thinking before posting a pointless thread? Then you can avoid my eiskalt manner.

…Third world carriers, often Muslim countries, some unfriendly to the U.S….

So, Boeing don’t sell modern airliners to operators from 3rd world or Moslem countries, then? (Hint: Ethiopian Airlines, Saudia, PIA, Emirates…… ) Someone take that spade out of his hands before that hole gets any deeper! :diablo:

….Sounds like propping up a customer to me…

So, how would you describe the huge discounts granted to Ryanair?

Or the factory-fresh A340s that Boeing bought from Singapore Airlines as part of the B777 deal?

Come off it, old chap. They’re both at it, and have been for decades! :rolleyes:

This is a stupid argument , airbus has also many other customers that are doing great buisness , are expanding every year , covering markets . The entire US carriers are down right now irrespective of boeign or airbus . AA , DL , NWA , UA are all doing quite badly and have been doing so since post 911 . Its the oversaturation of players that is causing this , there needs to be consolidation . Most of the US carriers that I have traveled on (Barring CO which has good service) are no where comparable to the class and service of some of the succesfull carriers out there . That is the reason why . There is over capacity , and the Low revenue PAX means that the airlines are making losses or doing very badly .

In fact, can anyone name a large U.S. carrier that has ever ordered/operated large numbers of Airbus widebodies and not gone out of business?

North West Airlines

Can anyone deny that Airbus has historically come up with sweetheart deals for failing U.S. carriers?

Not to make this ANOTHER Airbus vs Boeing argument…
But in the early 90s, America West (now US Airways) was on a mad expansion scheme as its founder was convinced that it had to be huge to be sucessful (ignoring Southwest Airlines, its regional competitor’s,
success).

Because of the expansion they were reportedly cash strapped (they bought two ex-KLM 474s to begin PHX-Hawaii service) and Aviation Week reported that they were receiveing a $1 million dollar cash “rebate” on every 320 purchased.
Sounds like propping up a customer to me.

PS…This at this same time they were asking for the city of Phoenix to build them a new maintenace base or else they would move their headquarters out of the city.

I pointed out the irony of this (asking taxpays to subsidize an airline that wasn’t even buying U.S. made aircraft) in a letter to the editor of the Phoenix newspaper. The next day I got a telephone call from a livid/rabid/ possibly drunk AW pilot asking if I drove an American car. The answer was “no” but then again I wasn’t asking taxpayers to pay for it.