USN Aircraft Identification needed please

http://books.google.com/books?id=PY8CvlKC7kgC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=vf-61+ark+royal&source=bl&ots=6o5V0Yov65&sig=pCRWbk33dfaqoH0N7PHDHwgcpWU&hl=en&ei=QA79TYWtOYr2swPpo-XeBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vf-61%20ark%20royal&f=false

If you read the whole thread before posting, you would find that I had determined my error and posted it long ago… along with the identification of the aircraft being from Saratoga during Strikeback.

But thanks for the article anyway.

Stikeback Saratoga aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Saratoga_CVA-60_launching_Ops_Strikeback_1957.jpg

I have this article (no date or origin, it came from a discussion board)… but I would place it during this same deployment (despite the deployment list for Sara not mentioning VF-101… the squadron list for the 1957 deployment is short, listing only one fighter and one attack squadron where there would normally be at least 2 of each).

VF-101 got F4Ds in August 1956, became a training squadron in April 1958, and gave up their F4Ds by the end of 1962: http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-squadron-vf101.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=PY8CvlKC7kgC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=vf-61+ark+royal&source=bl&ots=6o5V0Yov65&sig=pCRWbk33dfaqoH0N7PHDHwgcpWU&hl=en&ei=QA79TYWtOYr2swPpo-XeBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vf-61%20ark%20royal&f=false

NO!

As I said before, ONLY INDEPENDENCE used tail code AG!

NO USN carrier used tail code AG before Independence, so NO aircraft would carry it before January 1959, and all aircraft with it after that date would be from Independence.

Here are the tail codes used by Forrestal during that time period: http://navysite.de/cvn/cv59deploy.htm

January 15, 1957 – July 22, 1957; CVW-1; tail code T; VF-14 (F3H-2N)

This was Forrestal’s ONLY deployment with Demons.

Thanks for the replys and excellent info guys. Here’s another view of Ark with some more Sea Hawks, Gannets. And just for you Mike (last poster) WYVERNS!:D:D;) PS and a Skyraider by the round down!

With the “Home Fleet” 1957. I think the Harp on the tail of the Gannets was 815 sqdn. There shore base was RNAS Eglinton now Derry/Londonderry Airport!

That’s the first photo I’ve seen of Gannets nesting. Personally I consider the Wyvern one of the worst looking aircraft I’ve ever seen, always looks to me as though someone had a collection of parts left over from different types and put them all together as one machine.

Excellent research Badger! I would like to have witnessed that launch, full afterburn down the length of Arks deck, quite a spectacle.

It raises the question why after having problems with the hold back gear the a/c wasn’t recovered back on Saratoga rather than carrying on with the cross decking to smaller unfamiliar ship.

Wonder if the Skyray was also launched off Arks cats on afterburner? On Eagle when carrying out trials with the F4k a large metal plate was fixed to the deck in front of the JBDs which was cooled with a fire hose after each launch. Of course after the Phantom refit (1967-1969) Ark had water cooling on the JBDs and deck where needed.

Thanks for your info Badger:)

I suspect that the damaged/missing holdback fitting was only discovered after recovery aboard Ark Royal… that is the only way it makes sense.

The F4D used 1 afterburning J57, located on the centerline of the fuselage, with the exhaust nozzle clear of all structures… this would allow the heat to spread out in all directions. Note that this was the same engine and location as in the F-8 Crusader… and both aircraft operated from the modernized Essex class carriers without a water-cooled JBD (and with a wood-covered flight deck).

The F-4 Phantom had 2 afterburning J79s with almost the same thrust (thus double the heat output), they were located in the lower fuselage, they were pointed slightly downward, and their exhaust nozzles were under the aft part of the tail structure (which prevented any of the exhaust from spreading out upwards)… all of which concentrated the heat onto the deck/JBD.

Add in the lengthened nose-gear of the F-4K (which pointed the jet blast even further down into the deck/JBD), and you have well over twice the heating of the JBD.

Wyverns of 831 were initially assigned to HMS Eagle but eventually embarked on Ark Royal sometime in early 1956, and left around December 1957 when it returned to RNAS Ford and was disbanded.
In June 1957 the Squadron was cross-operating its Wyverns with the aircraft of the USS Saratoga.

Here is another Sea Hawk pic, looks like 898 again this time with an Ark Royal tail code. Not sure if this was taken before or some time after the “B” tail coded 898 Sea Hawk with the Demons.

Could that be a Wyvern on Arks side-lift?

In the first pic the 898 sqn Sea Hawk is wearing ‘B’ for Bulwark (the only deck code it carried), the squadron was embarked in her during spring 1957, I would say from the code and other lettering arrangements that this was taken after the picture in your last post when 898 were embarked in Ark Royal.

That’s a Gannet, as with the other lumpy things on deck! Sea Hawks and Sea Venoms can be seen on the deck.
I’m thinking this is just post Wyverns on the Ark period?

A copy of Sturtivant’s Squadrons of The Fleet Air Arm would be very handy for this.

Excellent research Badger! I would like to have witnessed that launch, full afterburn down the length of Arks deck, quite a spectacle.

It raises the question why after having problems with the hold back gear the a/c wasn’t recovered back on Saratoga rather than carrying on with the cross decking to smaller unfamiliar ship.

Wonder if the Skyray was also launched off Arks cats on afterburner? On Eagle when carrying out trials with the F4k a large metal plate was fixed to the deck in front of the JBDs which was cooled with a fire hose after each launch. Of course after the Phantom refit (1967-1969) Ark had water cooling on the JBDs and deck where needed.

Thanks for your info Badger:)

I have this article (no date or origin, it came from a discussion board)… but I would place it during this same deployment (despite the deployment list for Sara not mentioning VF-101… the squadron list for the 1957 deployment is short, listing only one fighter and one attack squadron where there would normally be at least 2 of each).

VF-101 got F4Ds in August 1956, became a training squadron in April 1958, and gave up their F4Ds by the end of 1962: http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-squadron-vf101.htm

The Sea Hawk in the first pic belongs to 898 squadron, the ones in the pic with the Wyverns appear to be 800 sqn.

Here is another Sea Hawk pic, looks like 898 again this time with an Ark Royal tail code. Not sure if this was taken before or some time after the “B” tail coded 898 Sea Hawk with the Demons.

Could that be a Wyvern on Arks side-lift?

Sorry for the confusion Badger I didn’t doubt your knowledge of ship/squadron deployment. I thought you were trying to tell me the photo was later than 1957.

I have attached the full sized photo for you to down load and expand. It does look like VF51 however I bow to your greater knowledge on the subject.

Paul.

Thanks for the blow-up… it would have helped a bit.

Not personal knowledge… research.

This site: http://navysite.de/carriers.htm gives considerable history of all USN carriers (the main site covers a vast number of USN ships of all types).

In each carrier’s individual listing is found the line “Click here to get a view of the deployments of USS (ship name)”, usually located just after the text giving the ship’s history.

Clicking on the hyper-linked word “here” gives a table listing the ship’s deployments. In the case of carriers, it includes the following information:
Date of Departure – Date of Return – CVW – Squadrons (Aircraft) – Tail code – Area of Operations – Battle Group – Operations/Exercises – Ports of Call

Not all the info is always there, but the first 5 columns are nearly always complete.

This site: http://www.joebaugher.com/uscombataircraft.html gives a good capsule history of aircraft types, model by model, including operational history, service history by nation, and construction serial numbers.

Here is the entry for the F3H Demon: McDonnell F3H Demon

It was trying to trace the history of CVW-7, to see just when the tail code AG first was used that led me to the possibility of the code being changed during Saratoga’s 1957 deployment.

The first instance of a single-letter tail code being listed as having changed to a two-letter code was for a deployment which started July 1957, and the last was CVW-7… last deployment listed with “L” being the 1957 Saratoga deployment and the first listed with “AG” being the 1960 Independence deployment.

That is why I was thinking the photo had to be from 1960-62… but your insistence on it being 1957 led me to consider the possible change of tail code during Saratoga’s 1957 deployment… with the squadron number VF-61 confirming that.

The USN block numbers make a 5 and a 6 look very similar. Look at this photo of a VF-61 Demon on USS F. D. Roosevelt in April 1957:

Distilled information

That’s why he’s called Distiller:D

Info in a nutshell.

Anon.

They are fantastic thank you, can I ask do you have the prints of these pictures?

Unfortunately not Pagen. The Ark Royal 1957 photos were emailed to me by a friend who had the prints on loan from someone at his local RNA branch.

The Gannets at Eglinton I got off the web some time ago.

More importantly do you have any more of Wyverns :D;)

Same goes for the Wyvern photos I’m sorry to say Wyvernfan:(

The Sea Hawk in the first pic belongs to 898 squadron, the ones in the pic with the Wyverns appear to be 800 sqn.

More importantly do you have any more of Wyverns :D;)

They are fantastic thank you, can I ask do you have the prints of these pictures?

Ok, a few things:

The aircraft is a F3H-2M.

It’s VF-61 “Jolly Rogers”.

The aircraft are from USS Saratoga.

The photo was taken in September 1957 during Operation Strikeback.

Thank you for your info Distiller:)

Ok, a few things:

The aircraft is a F3H-2M.

It’s VF-61 “Jolly Rogers”.

The aircraft are from USS Saratoga.

The photo was taken in September 1957 during Operation Strikeback.

Fantastic pictures Muscle Manta, thanks for sharing here, one can’t get enough Gannets!

Thanks pagen, here’s another one of Gannets on the flight line in 1958 at HMS Gannet, RNAS Eglinton, Nr Ireland. This is now Derry airport.