USS Liberty Incident

I haven’t given this topic a focused treatment, but I can share some impressions. The effort to portray the attack as deliberate is joined at the hip to the anti-Israel lobby, and the whole business is now irretrievably mired in conspiracy theory. The most scholarly analysis that I know of has come from Jay Cristol. I have a copy of his doctoral thesis on the subject but have merely kicked its tires. It has since been updates and published. Cristol has a web pesence:
http://www.libertyincident.com/author.html
At first glance, it seems the Accident party couches its arguments in terms of investigation, while the Deliberate party couches its arguments in terms of attacking Cristol.

OK I’ll wake this thread up again but seeing as there was an attempt at a hi-jack it may be necessary to start a new thread anyway:

After reading James Bamford’s book ‘Body of Secrets’ and the chapter ‘Blood’ I was convinced of Israeli culpability in the attack on USS Liberty.

It should be noted that Israeli aircraft circled the Liberty, a vessel of unique profile – flying a number of national flags – national markings on the deck – ID in large characters on the side and thus no chance of mistaken identity. Further a broadcast intercepted between Israeli pilot and his controller indicate they knew very well what vessel it was and indeed this was the reason for the attack. The Israeli’s were worried about broadcast evidence of their attrocities in and around El Arish getting world coverage.

Read Bamford’s book and also the book discussed at:

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.html

A Google search will reveal more and also how a powerful Jewish lobby in the US have tried to muddy the waters through their web site.

First a link for the intrested:

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-211.html

Sometimes a forensic look into that “incident”.

I don’t know who he was but with the info he had at the time I would have done exactly the same.

To show such an opinion, someone have to be very young or not learned much from real life so far.

Most of my posts come from the US inquery which found both Israel andthe US responisible, a fact you seem to ignore. Are the NSA recording of the Israeli pilots not being aware it’s a US ship also a huzpa?

The pilots were briefed before mission. Most times they got the “frogeye-view” only. It is a chain of command, where the receiving end got the least information. A soldier has to function and not ask questions at first. Too much faith into the superiors can lead into disaster sometimes.
The example of the Super Frelon crews from 114. sqn showed this at best.
Who was flown to the “USS Liberty” after the attack?!

You can also run naked strap with a US flag on Haifa street in Baghdad,
that doesn’t say the US navy operates recklessly or would put it’s sailors in
harm.

Childish

The Joint Chiefs of Staff investigated the communications failure and noted that the Chief of Naval Operations expressed concern about the prudence of sending the Liberty so close to the area of hostilities and four messages were subsequently sent instructing the ship to move farther away from the area of hostilities. The JCS report said the messages were never received because of “a combination of (1) human error, (2) high volume of communications traffic, and (3) lack of appreciation of sense of urgency regarding the movement of the Liberty.” The report also included a copy of a flash cable sent immediately after the attack, which reported that Israel had “erroneously” attacked the Liberty, that IDF helicopters were in rescue operations, and that Israel had sent “abject apologies” and requested information on any other U.S. ships near the war zone.

Both sides were intrested to keep the political damage limited at first. But the cover-up stories showed too much leaks.

Russian advisers? May 23 1967? this mish mash of nonsense has nothing
to do with the Liberty incident or with anything relevent.?

We speak of June 8 1967. The delivery of several weapon-systems were under the way. Su-7, Osa I type FMBs ( 13 boats from 1966-68) for example. With those intructors and military adviser came to Egypt. On board the Iljuschin plane June 5 1967 with Sidki and Amer was a Russian AF BG for example.

Really sherlock? is that why the US troops blast a car with an Italian
secret service agent and a female hostage?

Senseless remark and bad behavior . Our topic is USS Liberty and June 8 1967.

Or maybe the US learned that sending a boat in to the heart of a warzone is not such a great idea.

Just a cynical remark, which showed little respect for the victims and international law.

Did the Liberty fired at the Israeli boats? Did they allow Israeli medics to treat the wounded?

Just look into the link given above.

That has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, but a lot with history.
History is not intrested in politics or personal intrests.
Since the 60s I have learned over a dozen Israeli versions about the course of the events from 8th June 1967. So it is still intresting to learn which person was reponsible for that fatefull order.

I don’t know who he was but with the info he had at the time I would have done exactly the same.

It showed awfull wrong in the aftermath and creates still a credibility problem by cover it up much longer.
I call it huzpe again.

Most of my posts come from the US inquery which found both Israel andthe US responisible, a fact you seem to ignore. Are the NSA recording of the Israeli pilots not being aware it’s a US ship also a huzpa?

The USA and every other non-combatant can travel international waters without notifying someone.

You can also run naked strap with a US flag on Haifa street in Baghdad,
that doesn’t say the US navy operates recklessly or would put it’s sailors in
harm.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff investigated the communications failure and noted that the Chief of Naval Operations expressed concern about the prudence of sending the Liberty so close to the area of hostilities and four messages were subsequently sent instructing the ship to move farther away from the area of hostilities. The JCS report said the messages were never received because of “a combination of (1) human error, (2) high volume of communications traffic, and (3) lack of appreciation of sense of urgency regarding the movement of the Liberty.” The report also included a copy of a flash cable sent immediately after the attack, which reported that Israel had “erroneously” attacked the Liberty, that IDF helicopters were in rescue operations, and that Israel had sent “abject apologies” and requested information on any other U.S. ships near the war zone.

At least when the USA gave their silent consent for the Sinai-attack. You missed the point, that Russian advisers were in Port Said and the SU had annoucened on May 23 (1967) that every aggression by Israel upon any Arab State would be viewed as attack upon the SU. Why to ask the draw-back of the USS Liberty this in mind and a ceasefire imminent?! )

Russian advisers? May 23 1967? this mish mash of nonsense has nothing
to do with the Liberty incident or with anything relevent.

Even in a war-zone a neutral ship can not be attacked without being a real threat.

Really sherlock? is that why the US troops blast a car with an Italian
secret service agent and a female hostage?

The Egyptians were much more clever about that, when they announced on 6th October 1973 two war-zones with coordinates in the Medit. and Red Sea. Maybe they learned from that Israeli failure to do the same in 1967.

Or maybe the US learned that sending a boat in to the heart of a warzone is not such a great idea.

In the 60s and 70s I was a strong defender of the Israeli versions about the USS Liberty incident. I was in El Arish, Ashdod and Haifa. A little bit irritated about the bad eyes of that former sailors and pilots, but still a strong believer not to weaken Israels political position by asking too much questions about that incident. Till the days, when I visited a naval base and got the opportunities viewing ships from a fast plane and MBTs. That shattered my thrust into the Israeli version of the course of events from 8th June 1967.
Everyone can try it out, what are the visibilities in a clear day and calm sea-state are, even without binocullars. By the way, the same can be done at Ashdod or Haifa. Just to try out, what to see and what not to see. Some distances from the Israeli version. The Liberty-crew was able to identify the much smaller MBT-hull-number.

14:40 MBTs opened fire with guns first.
Closing in to a range of 1000 yards or 900 metre T-203 opened up with its heavy 0.5 MGs
14:42 T-206 attacked with torpedos from 1000 yards or 900 metre. The second was aimed from a sharp angle at 550 yards or 500 metre – both missed.
14:44 T-203 attacked from 2000 yards or 1800 metre at 90°. One Torpedo veered off track, but the left one struck.
T-204 attacked from 1500 yards or 1350 metre. A single Torpedo raced off-track. (Israeli version from 1984)

Did the Liberty fired at the Israeli boats? Did they allow Israeli medics to treat the wounded?

How much time do you devot to your concpiracy theories?
Your incoherent ranting and links to i don’t even know what don’t change the
fact that it was gross negligence for which Israel should be held accountable;
And the US is responisible for failing to notify Israel that the Liberty
was cruising of the the Egyptian coast and for failing to withdraw the Liberty from the war zone.

That has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, but a lot with history.
History is not intrested in politics or personal intrests.
Since the 60s I have learned over a dozen Israeli versions about the course of the events from 8th June 1967. So it is still intresting to learn which person was reponsible for that fatefull order. It showed awfull wrong in the aftermath and creates still a credibility problem by cover it up much longer.
I call it huzpe again. The USA and every other non-combatant can travel international waters without notifying someone. At least when the USA gave their silent consent for the Sinai-attack. You missed the point, that Russian advisers were in Port Said and the SU had annoucened on May 23 (1967) that every aggression by Israel upon any Arab State would be viewed as attack upon the SU. Why to ask the draw-back of the USS Liberty this in mind and a ceasefire imminent?!
Even in a war-zone a neutral ship can not be attacked without being a real threat. The Egyptians were much more clever about that, when they announced on 6th October 1973 two war-zones with coordinates in the Medit. and Red Sea. Maybe they learned from that Israeli failure to do the same in 1967.
In the 60s and 70s I was a strong defender of the Israeli versions about the USS Liberty incident. I was in El Arish, Ashdod and Haifa. A little bit irritated about the bad eyes of that former sailors and pilots, but still a strong believer not to weaken Israels political position by asking too much questions about that incident. Till the days, when I visited a naval base and got the opportunities viewing ships from a fast plane and MBTs. That shattered my thrust into the Israeli version of the course of events from 8th June 1967.
Everyone can try it out, what are the visibilities in a clear day and calm sea-state are, even without binocullars. By the way, the same can be done at Ashdod or Haifa. Just to try out, what to see and what not to see. Some distances from the Israeli version. The Liberty-crew was able to identify the much smaller MBT-hull-number.

14:40 MBTs opened fire with guns first.
Closing in to a range of 1000 yards or 900 metre T-203 opened up with its heavy 0.5 MGs
14:42 T-206 attacked with torpedos from 1000 yards or 900 metre. The second was aimed from a sharp angle at 550 yards or 500 metre – both missed.
14:44 T-203 attacked from 2000 yards or 1800 metre at 90°. One Torpedo veered off track, but the left one struck.
T-204 attacked from 1500 yards or 1350 metre. A single Torpedo raced off-track. (Israeli version from 1984)

http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/evidence/forensic%20analysis/idfhr.html

From inside SteveO s link. Is there some further info about that?

How much time do you devot to your concpiracy theories?
Your incoherent ranting and links to i don’t even know what don’t change the
fact that it was gross negligence for which Israel should be held accountable;
And the US is responisible for failing to notify Israel that the Liberty
was cruising of the the Egyptian coast and for failing to withdraw the Liberty from the war zone.

http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/evidence/forensic%20analysis/idfhr.html

From inside SteveO s link. Is there some further info about that?

The scan showed Daya-class MBTs and INS Elat (II) destroyer K-40 inside Ashdod port 1967.
The first MBT is INS Aya T-203.
Of intrest are the radar, which equipped T-203, T-204 and T-206.
Wrong speed-measurements given about USS Liberty in mind.
Own speed of MBTs, distance and time to target are tracked from three MBTs.
Coordinates of target were known from air-attacks at least.
The MBTs received order ~ noon and left Ashdod port to intercept USS Liberty. The distance from Ashdod to the USS Liberty was ~60 nm.
The travel-time to target was ~ 2 hours. Enough time to figure out the identity of that “unknown” ship. Even when considered as a “threat” or as hostile.
By the way always inside international waters by a fair margin and at slow speed. The USS Liberty was ~ 20 nm from El Arish airfield with liaison aircraft and helicopters. None was sent ?! For Dakota and Noratlas, which watched the USS-Liberty the whole morning, it was a roundtrip of 45 minutes to deliver pictures to the home-base. A Noratlas crew had identified the USS Liberty hours before and it was marked as that on the theatre map.
“This marking disappeared from the board, when the shift changed and that “overcrowded” board was cleaned. The USS Liberty was no ordinary ship, when identified before. It was tracked to find out course and intentions, as further overflights showed. The identity of the USS Liberty was no secret and known as ELINT-ship. Such a ship close to the war-zone was not ignored by the IDF. It was not put on the board only, time, coordinates, course and speed were scribed into books. Even the dumbest officier had looked into that book or asked that personal from former shift. An “unknown” ship does not come out of the blue close to Sinai coast. If the officers in the fighters, helicopters or MBTs were informed about the true identity is questionable.
But the superiors, which ordered that against most rules could not claim that for themselves.

When the Mirage pilots recognised the four small MG-pads (12,7 mm or .050 calibre) on the USS Liberty, they have not missed the much hugher “satellite dish”. See the similar MGs on the MBTs, even hard to spot from the pics.

The Israeli problem is, that they delivered too many different versions of the “incident” over the years. Each one revealed details, which showed that the former one was doctored. It helps, that many journalists and intrested people have/had limited knowledge about military behavior from that time.

Some scanned pics from the 60s.

Daya-class-Haifa – shows MBTs tied next to destroyer K-40 Eilat (II)
We can assume, that the crews of that MBTs knew very well how a destroyer of a Zealous-class looks a-like.

At the morning of 8th June the two INS destroyers K-40 Eilat (II) and K-42 Yaffo operated at the Sinai-coast off Romani ~ 34 nm from USS Liberty. None off that was dispachted to verify the identity of the “unknown intruder” off the coast of El Arish. Instead three Daya-class MBTs were send in from the more distant Aschdod harbour much later.

Daya-class-T-204 – shows that very MBT, which lent that class the name inside Aschdod port. The view shows that the crew was accustomed to the size and outlook of cargo-vessels similar to USS Liberty.
T-204, T-203 and T-206 did the attack on the USS Liberty at 8th June 1967 at ~14:34 pm. Those MBTs shadowed the stricken USS Liberty till ~17:00 pm.
Time given is always local time.

There are audio recordings (Israeli) translations of the attack posted on the NSA site
anything from the pilots not being able to identidfyi the nationality of the ship to the following Israeli attempts to rescue the sailors are there (without SENS insightfull comments).

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/index.cfm

Meat, sorry for going of topic.

Lots of info on the USS Liberty here http://www.ussliberty.org/

I can’t think why Israel would deliberately attack their closest ally, maybe they convinced themselves it was a Egytian ship disguised as a US ship, this type of thing happened in WW2 with dreadful results on more than one occasion.

Again, it was a nasty incident that causes alot of bad feelings, probably best to leave it alone.

At the 5th June 1967 there was no Egyptian Naval unit bigger than a MBT east of Port Said, not even east of Damietta.
Moked on 5th June 1967 destroyed the EAF and with it the possible aircover for units of the Egyptian navy.
5th June there was a warning in Elat, that the Red Sea flotilla with 2 destroyers and 6 MBTs my attack Elat at 02:00 a.m. at 6th June. 3 Israeli MBTs and some detonation-boats waited for this near the Saudi coast. But the Egyptian naval commander had called-off that attack, because there was no air-cover and the night too short to reach Elat for shelling. The one-way distance was 170 nm at most and the travel speed 20-30 knots for that flotilla.
6th June all smaller navel units left Sharm el Sheik.
7th June the Israeli MBTs reached Sharm el Sheik with out resistance, Sharm was abonnded.
In the Medit. INS TANIN submarine watched Alexandria harbour were the Egyptian Navy anchored. In the night of 5th to 6th June frogmen left the sub to attack inside Alexandria harbour. That operation becomes a failure.
The INS Jaffa destroyer was near Port Said, but as written before that harbour was deserted except a few MBTs. From 6th June the Egyptian Navy was idle and did not leave harbour. In 220 nm distance from El Arish and constant watch from the Israeli Navy. No chance for even the fastest Egyptian naval unit to reach that point and come away during night time. We keep in mind, that during daytime several Israeli aircraft of all kind crossed the shoreline here to give support to the Sinai forces.
Since the 5th June there was no 6th Fleet unit closer than 200 nm to the Sinai shoreline. In reality, those, the British, French and the Russian Flotilla were close to Crete.
So nothing to pinpoint on the theater-maps in Haifa naval HQ and Tel Aviv IDF HQ except the few Israeli naval units.
In the morning of 6th June the battle of Bir Lahfan was over and El Arish conquered. At the same day the first wounded Israeli soldiers were flown out from El Arish airfield close to the shore to Israel. Nearly all flights passed over the shoreline there. (Please look into map to get an impression.)
Still at 6th June the retreat of all Egyptian forces was ordered by Egyptian Fieldmarschall Amer. In the afternoon the IDF started it chase to Mitla to catch the retreating Egyptian forces.
7th June the IDF secured the passes in the Sinai and was close to the Canal.
The Gaza strip was conquered. Jordan accepted UN peace treaty. Israel had reached its targets to restore status quo ante by that.

8th June will bring the direct Israeli attack to the Canal itself. At that very morning the intel-ship USS Liberty shows-up close to El Arish to follow the Sinai coastline into the direction of Port Said. The Israeli had there “intended” war targets reached already and an UN-truce similar to Jordan was exspected. But it showed up, that Dayan had further intentions and the real target was the strategic Canal itself.

The Egyptians had no reason to send a single ship onto the Sinai-coast near El Arish. The real fighting there was over and the retreat from Sinai ordered already. To send a ship in full daylight is a suicid mission, when the enemy has air dominance. The Egyptians know that, when they called-off their night attack on Elat 3 days before under much better conditions. To send a slow horse carrier to do what?
Let us assume to send in a destroyer to do what? The Egyptians had no single reason to send a ship and the IDF know that very well.

A big freighter with big satellite dishes was a very strange “animal” in 1967, when the USA operated a handfull of those ships only. Even if someone did not have the slightest idea about ships, that feature spring into the eye of everyone. Let us assume no flag or bad eyes and missing the oversize markings. A look into Janes/Weyers or other handbook 1966/67 had given away the nation.
The Egyptian Skory- and Z-class destroyer (operated by the Israeli Navy too) were well-known to every Israeli sailor. I can not see any MBT-crew, which do not know its main opponent very well.

I am still a supporter of Israel. But it is intresting to learn, who was responsible for that “incident”. Who is the one, who ordered the ‘sinking’ of the USS Liberty, which failed by sheer luck for both, the crew and Israel.

At least you recognised my typing error. 86>96
The incident is not used by me to demonize Israel. We discuss the behavior of the IDF and here of some few soldiers (officers) only. So none blame the IDF in general, most of it is ok. Like in every big organisation not all stick to the rules ever. Sorry we did a terrible mistake, when that very art. unit and its commanders did not stick to the rules. To avoid the political damage, just a cover-up of real events was started at first. Other soldiers have full understanding, when something was an error really. But cheating other officers and being caught by that umdermines much more than the credibility of those involved directly.
A criminal is allowed to lie, but higher IDF officers?
There is a saying: “The fish starts smelling from the head”.

The mistakes and crimes of other are another topic.

As i post i’m listenning to Israeli Army radio show with Jacob Ami Dror
a senior military intel officer. His topic is the influance of intel officer and
the decion makers and the ethics of war effecting soldiers and civilians.
He is using examples from his expirience, WII, gulf war and the sabra
and shatilla assacre. Man i wish you could understand hebrew.

Your vain attempts to to demonize Israel are becoming my entertainment.
Limiting the incident to one single event and ignoring the rest so
that your previous post wont look like a total lie is priceless.
I appriciate your attempts to revise history to fit your bizzare agenda but
The incident took place in April 1996 and not 86. So be a man and faith …
LOL.

With US killing tens of thousands of innocent civilains in their recent campaign, would clasify their mission as a terrorist one?

At least you recognised my typing error. 86>96
The incident is not used by me to demonize Israel. We discuss the behavior of the IDF and here of some few soldiers (officers) only. So none blame the IDF in general, most of it is ok. Like in every big organisation not all stick to the rules ever. Sorry we did a terrible mistake, when that very art. unit and its commanders did not stick to the rules. To avoid the political damage, just a cover-up of real events was started at first. Other soldiers have full understanding, when something was an error really. But cheating other officers and being caught by that umdermines much more than the credibility of those involved directly.
A criminal is allowed to lie, but higher IDF officers?
There is a saying: “The fish starts smelling from the head”.

The mistakes and crimes of other are another topic.

The incident is limited to the single mortar firing from 13:45 from a location 220 metres SW of the centre of the compound. The ari-fire was to the relief of the Israeli squad under that fire. Hezbollah and IDF ignored the presence of UNIFIL. Both have to take the responsibility for that incident. But the “error” and source of fire is limited to the IDF. Israel claims that Hezbollah does not take care about civilians in Northern Israel and is right about that. The other way around Israel does not care of the civilans in Souther Lebanon too.
See the number of casualtis on both sides about that. This is called terror.

Wrong behavior of US-forces in 1983 is no excuse to be wrong again in 1986.

The BM-14s are limited to ~ 10 km range. That was the reason why Israel kept a security-zone in Souther Lebanon of ~ 10 km depth. To reach Northern Israel Hezbollah had to penetrate the Red-line. They received heavier BM-21s too ~ 18 km range. Today Hezbollah pocesses numerous rockets with much further range. But that very incident was 1986.

To avoid misunderstandings. Israel has the right of selfdefence. But you were thoroughly teached about the Geneva conventions and restrictions in the regular army. (IDF) That differs a regular soldier from an insurgent at first.

The thorough research from the UN showed, that the Israeli explanations given about ari-fire into the UNIFIL compound were not the truth. Why did some IDF-officers lie about that.

Your vain attempts to to demonize Israel are becoming my entertainment.
Limiting the incident to one single event and ignoring the rest so
that your previous post wont look like a total lie is priceless.
I appriciate your attempts to revise history to fit your bizzare agenda but
The incident took place in April 1996 and not 86. So be a man and faith …
LOL.

With US killing tens of thousands of innocent civilains in their recent campaign, would clasify their mission as a terrorist one?

It saddens me that you didn’t bother to read the entire UN report
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html
which i provided you and then have the nerve to claim I’m covering up
for Israel.

According to that the UN report the hizzbullah fired rockets and mortars.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html

(a) Between 1200 and 1400 hours on 18 April, Hezbollah fighters fired two or three rockets from a location 350 metres south-east of the United Nations compound. The location was identified on the ground.

(b) Between 1230 and 1300 hours, they fired four or five rockets from a location 600 metres south-east of the compound. The location was identified on the ground.

(c) About 15 minutes before the shelling, they fired between five and eight rounds of 120 millimetre mortar from a location 220 metres south-west of the centre of the compound. The location was identified on the ground. According to witnesses, the mortar was installed there between 1100 and 1200 hours that day, but no action was taken by UNIFIL personnel to remove it. (On 15 April, a Fijian had been shot in the chest as he tried to prevent Hezbollah fighters from firing rockets.)

Qana is about 15 km from the Northern Israeli border, which makes well
within range of the Katyusha’s.

How exactly defending Isreali soldiers and civilians became awrong excuses?
at last we didn’t shell them with 16″ guns like some did :rolleyes:

The incident is limited to the single mortar firing from 13:45 from a location 220 metres SW of the centre of the compound. The ari-fire was to the relief of the Israeli squad under that fire. Hezbollah and IDF ignored the presence of UNIFIL. Both have to take the responsibility for that incident. But the “error” and source of fire is limited to the IDF. Israel claims that Hezbollah does not take care about civilians in Northern Israel and is right about that. The other way around Israel does not care of the civilans in Souther Lebanon too.
See the number of casualtis on both sides about that. This is called terror.

Wrong behavior of US-forces in 1983 is no excuse to be wrong again in 1986.

The BM-14s are limited to ~ 10 km range. That was the reason why Israel kept a security-zone in Souther Lebanon of ~ 10 km depth. To reach Northern Israel Hezbollah had to penetrate the Red-line. They received heavier BM-21s too ~ 18 km range. Today Hezbollah pocesses numerous rockets with much further range. But that very incident was 1986.

To avoid misunderstandings. Israel has the right of selfdefence. But you were thoroughly teached about the Geneva conventions and restrictions in the regular army. (IDF) That differs a regular soldier from an insurgent at first.

The thorough research from the UN showed, that the Israeli explanations given about ari-fire into the UNIFIL compound were not the truth. Why did some IDF-officers lie about that.

You know very well, why you did not. Because it will show that your last sentence is wrong. All happened inside Souther Lebanon. Fire of mortars is limited well below 10 km and is used at around 5 km distance. Qana is ~ 15 km from the Northern Israeli border. Be ashamed about that incident and do not look for wrong excuses. It does not help you out, but undermine the credibility of Israel further. Blind support of the own country can lead into desasters as many Europeans learned before.
So be a man and faith the truth. Take a good map and read your link carefully. As a trained soldier you know how to do it. After that please think about, how was I informed about that by my own people.

“(a) In the early afternoon of 18 April, an Israeli patrol had come under fire emanating from Qana. The precise location of the patrol was not given, except that it was close to the “red line”, which is a line on Israeli maps that marks the northern edge of the Israeli-controlled area in southern Lebanon. Mortar shells had fallen as close as 40 metres to the patrol, which had requested assistance. The Israeli forces had initiated rescue fire procedures.”

It saddens me that you didn’t bother to read the entire UN report
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html
which i provided you and then have the nerve to claim I’m covering up
for Israel.

According to that the UN report the hizzbullah fired rockets and mortars.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html

(a) Between 1200 and 1400 hours on 18 April, Hezbollah fighters fired two or three rockets from a location 350 metres south-east of the United Nations compound. The location was identified on the ground.

(b) Between 1230 and 1300 hours, they fired four or five rockets from a location 600 metres south-east of the compound. The location was identified on the ground.

(c) About 15 minutes before the shelling, they fired between five and eight rounds of 120 millimetre mortar from a location 220 metres south-west of the centre of the compound. The location was identified on the ground. According to witnesses, the mortar was installed there between 1100 and 1200 hours that day, but no action was taken by UNIFIL personnel to remove it. (On 15 April, a Fijian had been shot in the chest as he tried to prevent Hezbollah fighters from firing rockets.)

Qana is about 15 km from the Northern Israeli border, which makes well
within range of the Katyusha’s.

How exactly defending Isreali soldiers and civilians became awrong excuses?
at last we didn’t shell them with 16″ guns like some did :rolleyes:

Is use of weappons allowed when trying to protect civilians?
I didn’t go and measure the distance from Qana to Israel but it’s not far.
Any rocket fired from there will hit northern Israel.

You know very well, why you did not. Because it will show that your last sentence is wrong. All happened inside Souther Lebanon. Fire of mortars is limited well below 10 km and is used at around 5 km distance. Qana is ~ 15 km from the Northern Israeli border. Be ashamed about that incident and do not look for wrong excuses. It does not help you out, but undermine the credibility of Israel further. Blind support of the own country can lead into desasters as many Europeans learned before.
So be a man and faith the truth. Take a good map and read your link carefully. As a trained soldier you know how to do it. After that please think about, how was I informed about that by my own people.

“(a) In the early afternoon of 18 April, an Israeli patrol had come under fire emanating from Qana. The precise location of the patrol was not given, except that it was close to the “red line”, which is a line on Israeli maps that marks the northern edge of the Israeli-controlled area in southern Lebanon. Mortar shells had fallen as close as 40 metres to the patrol, which had requested assistance. The Israeli forces had initiated rescue fire procedures.”

Is use of weappons allowed when trying to protect civilians?
I didn’t go and measure the distance from Qana to Israel but it’s not far.
Any rocket fired from there will hit northern Israel.

What was (is) the Task of UNIFIL?

To observe and report. Not taking side by that. Use of weapons is allowed in selfdefence only. Indirect international control. But both parties ignored the UNIFIL at will. Did you ever measured the real distance from Qana to the international border. (Blue line) ?!

So would orders would you issue.

Impossible to say without being there at the time. I didn’t serve in the artillery either so I don’t know what impact spread to expect from well-trained crews (which I assume they were considering the reputation of the IDF). Since they had a recon drone in the air it should have been avoided.