Varyag getting prettied up for a dance

Well whether china goes Su-33 or J-11 either they need to tweaked with a lot more thrust because as it stands flanker performance is about 20-30% degraded in terms of the amount of load it can carry (which wasnt really a top priority from russian navy) when talkin off from Kuznetsov.

I believe much more powerful engines are in the works for the Flanker Series. 😀

Truely, a direct purchase of Su-33 from Russia would make the most sense. For all we know maybe it has………….. 😮

Well whether china goes Su-33 or J-11 either they need to tweaked with a lot more thrust because as it stands flanker performance is about 20-30% degraded in terms of the amount of load it can carry (which wasnt really a top priority from russian navy) when talkin off from Kuznetsov.

I remember, Mad Hack was the name of that radar.

[quote]Sky Watch, is Mars Passet. That was the system that was meant to be intalled on Kuznetzov. The Tombstone mounted on Peter the Great (Kirov class) is installed as a single rotating mount. So I doubt that was intended to be fitted, it is also associated with the S-300FM system which was never intended for installation on a carrier.[quote]

If you read the description of the system I put behind the Sky Watch designation you would know what I meant. I was thinking, thinking, thinking and only Sky Watch came up my mind. It has another name, but I simply forgot it, as it’s not commonly used nor known.
Here are some more pictures of the system I mean:


Looks big on this ship, but a lot smaller on Ural, and Ural is smaller than Kuznetsov, so it would again look pretty realistic on that ship.
Tombstone you are right, but I’m quite sure that it can be used in general surveillance task too, or at least something based on it, which you would at least expect after Tombstone.
Nonetheless, I still think Varyag was meant to go without a phased array.
The Su-33 purchase has been mentioned a few times now, I wonder what is the truth behind these reports.

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Right now folks its just too early to say what she’s going to be. She’s been sitting for three years so they have a ton of cleaning up and refurbishing to do before they start hanging electronics on the mast and putting weapons on her or sticking giant Mickey Mouse ears on her island with “Its a Small World’ music pipped through the speakers, with 24 hour gambling and live nude girls inside.

The mroe I think about this the less likely it seems thast the PLAN will put this boat into service. There is no evidence other than conjecture and a few models that there may be any chinese carrier aircraft, no rumours of an Su-33 purchase, nothing. TheVaryag in her current state shows no sighns of any of the systems that would be required for her to go operational.

I would not be surprised to find that the PLAN has already converted/rebuilt some of its own J11s or SU-27s into SU-33-like aircraft and has them training.

May not necessarily be so of course…but I would not be surprised to find out that is what they have done. A lot less fanfare with that than some large international purchase of SU-33s from the Russians.

Jeff, that is only reinventing the wheel.. and what is worse, for quite heavy money.. Buying Su-33s is a far more sensible solution..

If the PLAN are going to put her into service they are at last a year or 2 away.

Agreed completely. And even then they would only at that point start a several year process (5-10 years) of really learning how to use her…if they could afford to train constantly and maintain her.

Look at this ship at the moment, there are no sighns of any weapons, communication systms, radars, or deck handling systems. Its unlikely its even got engines. If the PLAN are going to put her into service they are at last a year or 2 away.

Truely, a direct purchase of Su-33 from Russia would make the most sense. For all we know maybe it has………….. 😮

It could also make sense to go the other route (ie developing their own), but for different reasons. See my post number 51.

As a matter of fact, they may already be anticipating this so. The Su-27KUB (aka two seater Su-33UB) prototype is fitted with the Zhuk-MSE radar, the radar supposedly intended for the Su-30MK3. In 1997, China had serious talks with Sukhoi about the Su-33. Two years after, the Su-27KUB came out despite there is no concievable market in the RuN for them.

I believe they were anticipating it back then…and that another possibility is that they have since developed the expertise and gotten the technical info to do it themselves. They would be able to do so, if they so chose, without all of the fanfaire or public acclaim associated with a direct purchase.

If they wanted to keep the developemtn of carrier operations and capability away from the ROW for as long as possible…that is what I would do.

Are the Chinese doing this? I honestly don’t know. I believe they are perfectly capable of it. Time will tell.

Su-33 has many differences over Su-27/J-11 or even Su-30MKK. Although the Su-30MKK and the J-11 landing gear have been strengthened due to heavier loads, for the Su-33, you need to strengthen it to a whole different level to deal with carrier landings. At the same time, the body had to be strengthened further and the wings have to be foldable. The canards are added to reduce the takeoff length. Then to deal with the increased weight of all the beefed up components, and with the need to reduce take off length, you would need even more powerful engines. Then you need a radar to deal with the sea clatter.

I don’t think China would spare the development expense to create a regiment or two of carrier born J-11 variation. Not unless they’re building lots of carriers, I don’t even think China would spare the expense of even developing a J-10 version. They can spare themselves the expense just by ordering Su-33s from Sukhoi, a modified version for China fitted with the Su-30MK2 or Su-30MK3 radar.

As a matter of fact, they may already be anticipating this so. The Su-27KUB (aka two seater Su-33UB) prototype is fitted with the Zhuk-MSE radar, the radar supposedly intended for the Su-30MK3. In 1997, China had serious talks with Sukhoi about the Su-33. Two years after, the Su-27KUB came out despite there is no concievable market in the RuN for them.

Truely, a direct purchase of Su-33 from Russia would make the most sense. For all we know maybe it has………….. 😮

Su-33 has many differences over Su-27/J-11 or even Su-30MKK. Although the Su-30MKK and the J-11 landing gear have been strengthened due to heavier loads, for the Su-33, you need to strengthen it to a whole different level to deal with carrier landings. At the same time, the body had to be strengthened further and the wings have to be foldable. The canards are added to reduce the takeoff length. Then to deal with the increased weight of all the beefed up components, and with the need to reduce take off length, you would need even more powerful engines. Then you need a radar to deal with the sea clatter.

I don’t think China would spare the development expense to create a regiment or two of carrier born J-11 variation. Not unless they’re building lots of carriers, I don’t even think China would spare the expense of even developing a J-10 version. They can spare themselves the expense just by ordering Su-33s from Sukhoi, a modified version for China fitted with the Su-30MK2 or Su-30MK3 radar.

As a matter of fact, they may already be anticipating this so. The Su-27KUB (aka two seater Su-33UB) prototype is fitted with the Zhuk-MSE radar, the radar supposedly intended for the Su-30MK3. In 1997, China had serious talks with Sukhoi about the Su-33. Two years after, the Su-27KUB came out despite there is no concievable market in the RuN for them.

I am not so sure on that.

The stresses and strains of carrier aviation reguire substantially strengthened structural members, more robust landing gear, hard points for arrestor hooks, marinisation features, all of which are wasted on land based aircraft. In fact the excess weight is a positive detriment to performance.

The FA18 Hornet is an anomaly in that it was designed as carrier aircraft then adapted as a land based aircraft by a number of air forces. Similarly the F4 Phantom followed the same path.

Going the other way however has not been undertaken since the Second World War, and those aircraft that tried to do so (Seafire, Sea Hurricane, etc) were inferior in many ways to purpose designed carrier aircraft.

The Mig 29s which the then-Soviet Navy deployed to sea were apparently not identical by any measure to the usual PVO-Strany aircraft.

I would wager that the modifications to convert land based SU27s to carrier capable SU33s would entail a lot more than just fitting an arrestor hook.

It would probably be quicker and cheaper to go back to Sukhoi and get them to re-open production of the SU33 on their tooling, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel by building in-country with no previous experience in building and operating fixed-wing carrier aircraft.

Unicorn

I read many years ago that China had bought the license to manufacture the Su-33? Also, considering that China already builds the Su-27 (i.e.J-11) Flanker. So, personally I would consider it much of a stretch to build Su-33’s……. :rolleyes:

Agreed.

I would not be surprised to find that the PLAN has already converted/rebuilt some of its own J11s or SU-27s into SU-33-like aircraft and has them training.

May not necessarily be so of course…but I would not be surprised to find out that is what they have done. A lot less fanfare with that than some large international purchase of SU-33s from the Russians.

I read many years ago that China had bought the license to manufacture the Su-33? Also, considering that China already builds the Su-27 (i.e.J-11) Flanker. So, personally I would consider it much of a stretch to build Su-33’s……. :rolleyes:

Sky Watch, is Mars Passet. That was the system that was meant to be intalled on Kuznetzov. The Tombstone mounted on Peter the Great (Kirov class) is installed as a single rotating mount. So I doubt that was intended to be fitted, it is also associated with the S-300FM system which was never intended for installation on a carrier.

The Tombstone was meant to be placed like this, but I doubt the angled areas are large enough to hold one. Otherwise there is the Sky Watch phased array radar. That one certainly is too big, but a smaller version could probably be carried. The large panels were always used in surveillance missions, not for defensive purposes up till now.

But, in general I do think she was designed without phased array panels in mind, as you mentioned.

Actually I dont think she was, her sister Kuznetsov ws desighned and built with the intention of carrying the Mars-passet system, but this apparently failed and so the super-structure of Varyag was changed so that she didnt carry it. I cant think of any other fixed radar naval panels in the Russian inventory that would go there?

“Yeah they are just parts of the structure and despite what some people claim they are not 052C type radar panels.”

The Varyag was originally designed for phased-array radars, that is just the mounting base where they would have been if they had ever been installed.