VC10 OR 707

RE: VC10 OR 707

If you compare the two best variants of the VC-10 and 707, the Super VC-10 and 707-320 Intercontinental, you’ll notice a few intersting things. The 707 is siginificantly faster, while the VC-10 has a bit more range. However, the 707 has more capacity owing to the fact that it can carry up to 219 passengers while the Super VC-10 can carry up to 174 passengers. The VC-10 is longer at about 174 feet compared to about 153 feet for the 707. The wingspan of both is about the same about roughly 145-6 feet. The VC-10 is roughly 156,000 pounds empty whereas the 707 is 146,000 pounds. Maximum takeoff weight for the VC-10 is 335,000 pounds where the 707’s max takeoff weight is 336,000 pounds. The 707 has a larger wing area, at 3050 sq. feet as opposed to the 2,932 sq. ft. wing of the VC-10. Production totals for the 707 add up to 878. This total shoots well over 1,000 if you add in the military variants. The number of VC-10’s was 54 with 22 being Supers and 32 being Standards. While the VC-10 was a nice aircraft, the 707 is the superior of the two.

RE: VC10 OR 707

Granted

But what is anything without circumstances?

It is true that due to passenger preference on trasatlantic routes in service with BOAC, the Super VC-10 was economically competitive with the 707. In fact the 707’s were used to take “spillage” from the frequently full VC-10 flights.

RE: VC10 OR 707

There were a few more than 1000 707’s built. I suspect there were fewer than 200 VC-10 and Super VC-10’s built but I could not come up with a number. On that score the 707 wins, however, the VC-10 was a very successful design and BOAC was very pleased with its performance. The 707 was marginally smaller and slower. Passenger capacities for the 707 ranged from 141-195 and for the VC-10 from 150-174 judging from what I was able to find. As far as looks go, its a trivial issue but both are IMHO better looking than most current designs.

Regards

RE: VC10 OR 707

Come onnnn!!!!!

You cannot say the VC10 is more efficient than the 707 just because it had higher load factors (incidentally, where did you find that information?)

Load factors are a function of economic circumstances and marketing as well as a host of other socio-economic factors. They have precisely nothing to do with whether the airline flys VC10s or 707s.

I believe the 707 was designed from the outset with fuel economy slightly more highly placed than with the VC10 – though they were both poor by modern standards. The VC10 was designed more around the specific needs of BOAC – especially the colonial runs.

RE: VC10 OR 707

Hey!

You just argued my own point but started off with suggesting I do more research!

I never said the 707 was not more efficient; I said the other posters were not comparing like with like.

Yes – the 707 was a fine aircraft which won lots of order on its merits. But the complete lop-sided nature of the competition owed a lot to US protectionism, also.

RE: VC10 OR 707

Reading this thread almost made me sick. The 707 is cleary my favorite. I’ve never been on either one, but I can tell you that the 707 is superior in terms of performance and lifting power and definitely range. The 707-320 with JT3D engines would even be competitive in the market today owing to its very long range and very good cargo capacity (up to 96,000 pounds). I say this in regard to the 707 serving with a freight company, which coincidentally is still serves with many of them. It still serves with a quite a few airlines as well, and would be decent as a medium-long haul aircraft. The 707 is clearly a better aircraft because of its widespread success, very high performance and the fact that military variants have been very successful as well. The KC-135 and its many variants have been so successful that many nations have configured 707’s to perform the cargo and refuelling roles of the KC-135. The 707 was definitely the more influential of the two. It sure the more graceful of the two. I don’t think I’ve seen an airliner that has come along since the 707 that was/is as graceful as Boeing’s four engined legend.

RE: VC10 OR 707

The 707 was well established and making a profit for BOAC well before the VC-10 came along. The VC-10 was an imposing aircraft and fine looking, but as a commercial item it could not compete over the long run with the American design. If it had been able to, BOAC would have keep it in service and purchased more of them. As far as ‘violent’ American intervention is concerned – well if you are a believer in that type of story, they provide a ready excuse whenever cold hard facts get in the way.

It seems every time an American design wins a contract, a story pops up that they put the strong arm on someone, made a bribe, or used some other underhanded approach when the fact is they make good aircraft and are good salesmen.

Regards

RE: VC10 OR 707

I do agree that the decline of the British aeronautical industry is as much to do with the incompetence and strange desicion making rationale of the British government as the violent assertiveness of the American Government.

In repy to your “How about comparing like with like?” comment, take a quick peek at waht the discussion is about. Go on, just a little look?

And in airline service the VC-10 was economically competitive with the 707 due to it’s consistently higher load factors. And it has vastly superior performance.

And surely the VC-10 has to win on it’s sheer elegance.

RE: VC10 OR 707

FANTASTIC..someone else actually knows something!!! I thought I made a point with my earlier comment only to discover either people hadn’t read it or just ignored it and tried to come up with things to say!!!

RE: VC10 OR 707

Mongu
You need to do a little research on why American commercial jets sold so well. The folks doing the buying bought them in large numbers because they were superior in all respects. The 707 was wide, comfortable, economical and not at all noisy.

Regards

RE: VC10 OR 707

Sour grapes?

I accept that the US government is usually grossly unfair and very protectionist. But then, most governments try to do that.

The difference is that most Euro governments, especially the UK, are run by invertebrates who dare not challenge the Washington line. If you can blame anyone, blame the Euro governments!

Also, I suspect Boeing has a more extended industrial offset programme than Airbus – ie. components made in China etc..

To say that the VC10 is more economical because it had higher load factors is absolute nonsense. How about comparing like with like?

As for Concorde – yes, the US booted it into touch. I also seem to remeber protests in the streets in the UK about it though!

RE: VC10 OR 707

The reason for poor sales performance had absolutely nothing to do with aircraft performance. The vc-10 was at least on par in terms of economics with the 707, mainly due to the fact that passengers preffered the vc-10 and it therefore had much higher load factors.
The agression of US government in eliminating competition for it’s domestic industry (as mentioned) was the overriding factor.
The US government also put paid to the concorde program, by effectively banning it from flying over land in the US.
Boeing was fortunate to have the most powerful marketing organisation behind it, and it still does.

RE: VC10 OR 707

That´s simple. Power gives influence and sometimes dirty tricks to dominate market. I just remember when EL AL wanted to buy Airbus and MS Madeleine Albright former (Secretary of State) called to tell the israeli that they would find terribly unfriendly that they buy Airbus. Sometimes, bigger manufacturers make price dumping or have better selling conditions. This doesn´t mean that products are superior.

RE: VC10 OR 707

The VC-10 was just so much more gracefull than the 707, Its a shame it was not a success ! I wish that I had the opportunity to fly on it, but im a little too young !! I think many of the European made aircraft of that sort of era had style, Caravelle for example.

RE: VC10 OR 707

I agree that many older generation Euro aircraft were better in SOME respects than their US counterparts. However, I am struggling to explain away the enormous superiority of the US aircraft in the sales charts!

Really, with the advent of the Comet and the Viscount, Europe and the UK in particular should have squashed Boeing and Douglas!

RE: VC10 OR 707

British aircraft were even better than their american counterparts. I have never flown the VC10 but I have seen the Duxford model and I was surprised for it interior space. Much confortable than B707, which I flew when I was a kid. The British aircraft, like the Caravelle and other european models came out in a time where the american brands dominated the market. Even the Mercure, was much more advanced and better aircraft than the B737. The Caravelle was a legend, and the Trident, was much more sturdy and advanced that the B727. I am not sure about the safety of VC10. Having the engines mounted so close (like Concorde) a fire or explosion would be terrible. I know the IL-62 had this problem. I remember a couple of terrible crashes happened to this later model because of that feature.

RE: VC10 OR 707

The VC-10 was not made exclusively for BOAC and there were a number of other operators, though none of their fleets were as large as BOACs. The VC-10 was far more popular than the 707 with passengers and was part of the reason BOAC kept them on the North Atlantic routes, even after delivery of 707s.

The initial 707s (707-400) operated by BOAC were also powered by RR Conway engines, but proved to be very uneconomical, and were eventually supplemented by the more common 707-300 series aircraft.

I think that the VC-10 (especially the stretched ‘super’) was a beautiful aircraft, but the 707 had that fantastic “Boeing Nose” which made it look really attractive.

RE: VC10 OR 707

Having not been lucky enough to fly on any of the aircraft you are asking about, I wouldn’t know about the quality of the ride on each. Based on looks, I would say the 707, it’s so ‘Boeing’ if you know what I mean. The nose is so distinctive and I just love it. I have the 707 for FS98. I prefer this over 2000 and dont have 2002 yet and it is extremely noisy compared to other aircraft.

RE: VC10 OR 707

I like the VC 10 also.

The 707 as well as not being very economically friendly in terms of noise, looks dull compared to the VC 10. There must be somthing with this a/c…the RAF chose it, and what a great job it has done to.

Regards

Benair

RE: VC10 OR 707

VC-10 all the way. The 707 may have had the greater range, but the VC-10 could operate fully loaded out of airports which the 707 could not even dream of. The Vickers aircraft was specifically built for hot ‘n’ high airports, if only to serve the old BOAC ‘Imperial’ routes into Africa. The VC-10 is also a much better looking aircraft than the 707.