Vickers-Armstrongs Spitfire

That’s a new one on me, although I’ve seen scattered references to the “Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire.”

Attached makers plate on mine!

And the “Vickers-Armstrongs Spitfire…. “

That’s a new one on me, although I’ve seen scattered references to the “Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire.”

Flight Magazine, in its ‘War in the Air’ editorial commentary dated July 11th 1940, has “This new battle in Europe, which has been dubbed ‘The Battle of Britain’ (as far as I know by our own politicians) is falsely named – It should have been called the first stage of the Battle for America…”

By October 10th 1940, Flight has accepted the term into common currency – giving the headline “The Battle of Britain Goes On : Likewise the Battle of Germany”

Thank you Beermat … I’ll accept that. Battle of Britain from the word go. Fascinating.

Thanks all, cheers D

Churchill quotes should always be handled with care (more than I offered!) as some of his famous speeches exist in several formats being re-delivered – sometimes by an actor – for radio (sometimes after delivery in the House).

For anyone interested the actor who was sometimes called in by the BBC to recite the Churchill speeches was Norman Shelley, who up till that time was most famous for being the first person to play Winnie the Pooh on BBC radio.

As Churchill gave a lot of his speeches to Parliament, and as no recordings were allowed then to be made in the Houses of Parliament, if the BBC wanted to broadcast a political speedch, the speaker was usually asked to come into the studio later and re-read it for the air. However Churchill as PM considered his time too precious and he was not willing to repeat his speeches for radio so he asked the BBC to get someone else to do it. So a few speeches including alledgedly the “We’ll fight them on the beaches” speech were recorded for Norman Shelley. It’s thought some of the speeches Winnie recorded to send to the USA were also actually Shelley. Of course after the war when he had more time Winnie did actually record many of his speeches for posterity. But there are no original Parliamentary speeches by him , only hose recorded shortly after by Shelley or well after the war by Winnie himself. The only wartime speeches which are genuine are those that were done specifcically as a live broadcast on radio or recorded at a live event such as the functions the PM attended at places like the USA, Canada, Harrow, etc.

The real Winston was very pleased with the Shelley recordings apparently. It was of course top secret and few staff ever knew about Shelley standing in. He later revealed the story and most disbelieved him, till after his death when a recording turned up with an official label explaining the speech was Shelley as Churchill. So now its accepted as fact.

Flight Magazine, in its ‘War in the Air’ editorial commentary dated July 11th 1940, has “This new battle in Europe, which has been dubbed ‘The Battle of Britain’ (as far as I know by our own politicians) is falsely named – It should have been called the first stage of the Battle for America…”

By October 10th 1940, Flight has accepted the term into common currency – giving the headline “The Battle of Britain Goes On : Likewise the Battle of Germany”

There are other examples of the phrase in Flight in between. I recommend Flight Global’s superb searchable archive – http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/index.html

Merry Christmas to all on here!

Thanks Mk.12 for those covers. The Hebrew version (I think you are right) is very interesting. I’m glad I got the year correct!

Smith – oscar duck’s post was lifted direct from the Wiki page about the Battle, to correct (I assume) my ‘misquote’, which according to Wiki missed out a bit of Churchill’s original sentences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain

Churchill quotes should always be handled with care (more than I offered!) as some of his famous speeches exist in several formats being re-delivered – sometimes by an actor – for radio (sometimes after delivery in the House).

The BBC website gives the transcript: ‘What General Weygand has called the Battle of France is over: the Battle of Britain is about to begin.’ (You’ll note that differs from the Wiki version offered by oscar.)

The pertinent point is that Churchill broadcast to the nation on the 18 June 1940 (BBC ref) using the term – so it would have been disseminated nationally (and internationally) then. While IMHO Churchill is often credited with coinings that weren’t his (like Wilde, Byron et al) this probably does belong to him, as a term he developed from another battle’s loss.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schoolradio/history/worldwar2audioclipslibrary_clip08.shtml

As a man interested in history, Churchill will probably have been well aware of ‘the matter of Britain’: “There are but 3 literary cycles that no man should be without: the matter of France, of Britain, and of great Rome”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_of_Britain

As a great rhetorician, Churchill may have had that in the back of his mind as well.

I don’t know what other people called it at the time, but those using Churchill’s phrase would have been using a term familiar to many across the free world at that stage. A search in newspapers of the period, and the notes of Mass Observation would give some examples of the use (or not) of the term in published news and everyday talk.

I’m surprised that no-one has so far run with ‘who made the Spitfire’! It’s common to see all three combinations – VA, VAS, S legitimately. It’s unusual in contrast to see any of the other manufacturers types referred to by anything than the particular manufacturer – no Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Hurricane, for instance. I presume that’s to do with the nature of the respective company and conglomerate’s status at the time.

Regards,

The Battle of Britain … is the name given to the air campaign waged by the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) against the United Kingdom during the summer and autumn of 1940 … The name derives from a famous speech delivered by Prime Minister Winston Churchill in the House of Commons: “The Battle of France is over. I expect the Battle of Britain is about to begin…”[

Agreed … but I’m wondering when the Battle of Britain was discussed in that way. For example, did a newspaper, or a radio commentator, on say August 30th 1940 say “well here we are, one month into the Battle of Britain and things are looking grim [or good] …”.

Mark 12’s pamphlets tell us that at some time in 1941 the air battles of Aug/Oct 1940 were labelled “Battle of Britain”.

The book I have, also from 1941, is silent on this.

In fact did Churchill, having used the term in a speech to say the battle was about to commence, consider the battle to have been concluded? He spent 1941/42 worried about u-Boats. Surely another facet of the Battle of Britain? Or had that been branded the Battle of the Atlantic at that time?

I’m querying contemporary vs after-the-fact branding in these questions … specifically wondering (as an aside) when the BoB became known popularly as the BoB.

I say an aside, as it was the relative balance of recognition of Hurricane and Spitfire in this contemporary publication that drew me to open this thread.

Thanks, D

The Battle of Britain (German: Luftschlacht um England) is the name given to the air campaign waged by the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) against the United Kingdom during the summer and autumn of 1940. The objective of the campaign was to gain air superiority over the Royal Air Force (RAF), especially Fighter Command. The name derives from a famous speech delivered by Prime Minister Winston Churchill in the House of Commons: “The Battle of France is over. I expect the Battle of Britain is about to begin…”[

It’s all about BRAND

@ Daz … it’s the story of the Conglomerate and it’s brands. Vickers-Armstrongs was indeed the owner and builder of the Spitfire, by its (acquired) brand Supermarine. I guess either name is correct.

@ Moggy … settle down. As James points out, everything is said by one person or the other. This book, for all it’s undoubted censorship and editing (aircraft are “thought” to be capable of this or that performance etc.) reads as a reasonably well balanced piece [well after the fact].

@ Beermat and JDK … when did Churchill make that speech? Clearly it is rhetorical and I find it interesting that the book I’m referencing talks of the air battles in various months, not a “Battle of Britain”. I would guess that in the UK in 1941 you wouldn’t really think of a/the Battle of Britain as having been concluded or won? But see Mark 12.

@ JDK … the Hurricane. I was taken by the line “will for ever be linked …” which signals just how top of mind the Hurricane must have been at that time, as you say on every school boy’s lips. We have a big task to educate today’s young ‘uns. But we have the benefit of the Historian’s wider view.

@ Rocketeer … you have it too! Can you access a scanner so we can pop the cover and maybe a page or two up on the thread? I’ll have a go at work too.

@ Mark-12 … thank you for that. Certainly looks like a Battle with start and end dates! I wonder when in 1941 these various publications came out? I doubt (until proven otherwise) that the engagements of summer/autumn 1940were referred to as the BoB as they unfolded. Or were they? Was Churchill’s political rhetoric top of mind? To Moggy’s journalist quip, sooner or later someone brands a thing and it sticks.

Cheers D

Just remembered that the Puffin book is simply a kid’s version of the official publication, from the same Ministry source – though oddly it does pre-date it. Other ‘time capsules’ still occasionally available in second-hand bookshops (though so much rarer now than twenty years ago) are wartime ‘flight’ magazines, and those beautifully produced, heavy-duty illustrated hardbacks aimed at older kids, (finest example: ‘The Wonder Book of the RAF, 1941’), including photos that don’t appear in any archive, just in hard copy in those rare tomes.

While I was overseas my landlord took it upon himself to remove and then throw away a packing crate full of this material. Lost forever. He said ‘But Matt, they were OLD, I didn’t know you wanted to keep them’. I am still in mourning, 12 years on, and haven’t had the heart to begin rebuilding. Moral: Cherish these items.

Don, interesting stuff. Have you read this awesome kid’s collectible 1940 New Zealand publication about the Battle of Britain? It’s great fun reading the ‘latest gen’ of the day.

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Books&action=display&thread=3963

The other contributory item to the naming was a government pamphlet publication called the Battle of Britain, published around 1941, IIRC. Regards,

There are several variations on that Government booklet.

This one shows it was first published in 1941.

..and here a version that I think is possibly Hebrew as it starts on the back
page.

Mark

….it could be argued that the moral effect of the Spitfire was probably as important as any ‘guns and bullets’ war effect it had.

It could indeed – but essentially after 1940. How much the Spitfire or the Hurricane was ‘the’ type at the time depends on what you select as your period source/s.

(PS – morale, not moral, btw.)

Cracking book you have there old chap…..i treasure mine!

The Spitfire myth (i.e. that it won the BoB) is a story of propaganda, dash, excitement and the exotic! It was the first ‘peoples’ fighter taken to the hearts of a nation because of the fighter fund, shape, ‘secrecy’ etc etc….books posters etc…fantastic stuff….there is another thread about the P51……it could be argued that the moral effect of the Spitfire was probably as important as any ‘guns and bullets’ war effect it had.

We’ve just moved house and in doing so I’ve unearthed a long forgotten book “The Royal Air Force in pictures” published by Country Life Ltd, London, in 1941 (MCMLXI).

It contains about 100 pages of photographs and text about the RAF’s (and Fleet Air Arm’s) aircraft, trainers, bombers, fighters, general purpose, target aircraft, rotaplane, coastal reconnaissance, troop carriers, army cooperation and fleet air arm. Plus it’s packed full of wonderful advertisements including AC Spark plugs, DE HAVILLAND, Splintex, Roberston oil cooling, and many more. These are all un-numbered pages (so it’s maybe 150 pages in total). I’m loving it.

What really strikes me is it’s “time capsule” quality and I’m taken by some of the statements it makes.

The Cover opens with “Today we are all air-minded” which immediately made me flash to Brett Holman’s wonderful blog.

The Hawker Hurricane: “A fighter whose name will for ever be linked with the great victories won by the Royal Air Force over the Luftwaffe in mid-August and mid-September of 1940 …”

No mention of the Battle of Britain nor the Spitfire in that context.

And the “Vickers-Armstrongs Spitfire. Most famous of all fighting aeroplanes in the world …”

R J Mitchell is credited as designer, but no mention whatsoever of Supermarine.

What’s going on? Have I got a 1941 time capsule? I’ll answer that, “Yes.” So … when did we adopt the current naming conventions, “Battle of Britain” and “Supermarine Spitfire”

cheers Don

I’m sure you’ll get miles of feedback on the other items…

The Hawker Hurricane: “A fighter whose name will for ever be linked with the great victories won by the Royal Air Force over the Luftwaffe in mid-August and mid-September of 1940 …”

No mention of the Battle of Britain nor the Spitfire in that context.

I’ve read a number of times in the better-based histories that ‘the Hurricane was the name on every schoolboy’s lips’ at the time.

Certainly the Spitfire’s longer term success has had an unsurprising effect of eclipsing the majority type and the type that made the most kills in the Battle.

I think Moggy’s ‘journalist’ remark misses a point of how perceptions of history change – something that journalists are actually a contributory factor in. No one person’s view of the case is ‘definitive’ whether an Air Min hack, W Churchill, a pilot at the time or Moggy or myself. Each adds something (of differing weight) to the whole.

Beermat’s point re- Churchill’s use of the term ‘Battle of Britain’ is correct, but we mustn’t forger that itself was a derivative, rhetorical follow on (something that Churchill excelled at) – “What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. The Battle of Britain is about to begin.” Today, as it was a defeat, Weygand’s attempted coining is usually ignored except in this context.

The other contributory item to the naming was a government pamphlet publication called the Battle of Britain, published around 1941, IIRC. Like the Puffin book, that’s arguably where the official story began to be set for us to argue about since…

Regards,

As for the ‘Battle of Britain’ – it was coined by Churchill before it even happened “..the Battle of Britain is about to begin” – and by December 1940 a Puffin picture book for children called “The Battle of Britain” was published. Now, that really IS a time capsule – sadly my beloved copy was lost in a house move, somehow.

What’s going on?

I think the single word ‘journalist’ is probably explanation enough.

Moggy

From Wikipedia:

In 1928 Vickers-Armstrongs took over Supermarine as Supermarine Aviation Works (Vickers), Ltd and in 1938 all Vickers-Armstrongs aviation interests were reorganised to become Vickers-Armstrongs (Aircraft) Ltd, although Supermarine continued to design, build and trade under its own name.