Vintage Aircraft of the Future

Very interesting thread, and it prompts the question what is vintage, what is classic? any ideas? What are the “official” definitions?

Good question.

I know that for motorcycles (in Denmark at least) its more or less a question of insurance (the closest to an official definition). More than 25 years is classic, more than 50 years is vintage.

My own difinition of vintage aircraft, is anything before 1930. And for classic aircraft its between 1930 and 1960. But its not something I normally use for classification.

Surely a museum person must have a more solid difinition.

Very interesting thread, and it prompts the question what is vintage, what is classic? any ideas? What are the “official” definitions?

If i had to restore an aircraft, I would be likely to choose an aircraft that is already flying. There are people to talk to and the authorities have already dealt with such a project. Trying to restore a type, which has not been airworthy since the war, will create all sorts of problems. Luckily people still do that, but its easy to see how the beaten track is the most comfortable.

Thank goodness for people willing to spend the time, money and effort restoring the unique stuff.
Certainly WWII (and later) warbirds are complex, so that’s a different situation but a friend just restored the world’s sole flying example of a prewar civil type.
We can assume he’ll always be noticed at an airshow/fly-in instead of having “Just another nice Spitfire/Mustang/Harvard”.
To help my friend prepare for flying his plane, a friend of his who owns the sole airwothy DH-4 and he let him fly it (solo) to help him get familiar wth old (really old!) prewar planes.
A very generous act and pretty typical of the close knit community these people share.
Most of us may help with a project or at a museum or even do research and might get something published.
But the real heros of the vintage aviation world are these people who put time, effort, and a lot of money into aircraft we all enjoy.

I think people really need to start specializing more, i love seeing spits fly, but everytime i hear about another project to get a spit flying, i think that surely the money could be better spent on other rarer aircraft, unless someone has a desire to recreat mallory’s ‘big wing’

I feel the same, but also understand the appeal of the Spit/Mustang/Bf-109.

If i had to restore an aircraft, I would be likely to choose an aircraft that is already flying. There are people to talk to and the authorities have already dealt with such a project. Trying to restore a type, which has not been airworthy since the war, will create all sorts of problems. Luckily people still do that, but its easy to see how the beaten track is the most comfortable.

Does anyone think that perhaps too many classic aircraft are being returned to flight? I don ‘t think the admission price of airshows can go up anymore, with problems in the global economy, sponsorships will become limited. I feel that there are less airshows tham their used to be, so how will some of these private ventures survive. I think people really need to start specializing more, i love seeing spits fly, but everytime i hear about another project to get a spit flying, i think that surely the money could be better spent on other rarer aircraft, unless someone has a desire to recreat mallory’s ‘big wing’

I sort of feel the same its well and good havin 50 spits, but id rather have say have 1/2 that amount and have other “rarer” types flying
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Didn’t someone in the US buy an ex FAA sea harrier for use on the display circuit? i can’t remember where, but can remember reading about it
As far a fuel costs go, thats gotta be reasonably expensive as the airframemust be the best part of 30 years old.

Does anyone think that perhaps too many classic aircraft are being returned to flight? I don ‘t think the admission price of airshows can go up anymore, with problems in the global economy, sponsorships will become limited. I feel that there are less airshows tham their used to be, so how will some of these private ventures survive. I think people really need to start specializing more, i love seeing spits fly, but everytime i hear about another project to get a spit flying, i think that surely the money could be better spent on other rarer aircraft, unless someone has a desire to recreat mallory’s ‘big wing’

As far as complaints go about H&S regulations, sure some seem overly tight, but having witnessed warbird crashes over the years, i would prefer to see a restored aircraft in a museum and enthusiasts alive than the opposite.

Restoring and flying vintage aircraft has always been about vision. Dismissing even the idea of a private F-15 (although it might seem impossible now) will not produce anything.

Flying current fighter aircraft as private jets in the future might be improbable, but I wouldnt go as far, as saying its impossible.

I would say impossible.

Are you aware of what the recent and current situation is in the USA regarding the recently retired Tomcat’s and the saga of what happened with the Collings Foundation regarding the last F-105 at AMARC…..??

If you are, then, you would also know that there’s no way you will see a privately owned/flown F-14/F-15/F-16 or suchlike ever.

As for UK stuff, well, maybe, you may just see the odd Hawk in years to come, but not much else. If someone with deep pockets now this minute, before it’s too late, made an approach for the lowest time single seat and two seat Jaguar that are now in store pending disposal, and all the available spares and equipment they could get there hands on, with the Jags pretty good safety record, maybe…….just maybe……you could get the CAA on board with that….but I still wouldn’t bet on that either.

It amazes me how different the “health status” of warbird and vintage aviation is perceived. :confused:

Some talk about regression as a fact. And yes, the days of massive military shows are most likely over, at least in Europe. Still others say we have not since WWII (or whenever) had more flying examples of type X, or never before a more diverse historic aircraft fleet.

We can be sure of one thing – the scene is constantly changing. To better and worse. 😎

[QUOTE=Firebird;1234108]Err……that means you’re not even born yet….by at least 42 years 😉

Well that was obviously the difficulty in my phsyce, trying to cope with the problem of ‘A’ Level maths all those years ago, anyway, how do you know that I haven’t regressed or even better, hitched a ride in the Tardis.

Airshows are very variable and unpredictable, who knows what will happen.
In the great heyday of BoB airshows 40 years+ ago, it was all contemporay stuff, plus the odd Spitfire, Hurricane, and if we were very lucky, a visit from the Shuttleworth Gladiator.
At the time, I never would have imagined that an event such as Legends would ever be possible, these machines, that we just dreamed of flying at the time, were considered to be museum pieces, and not many of them were in museums either.
I recall seeing a P-47 at Hucknall in 1963, we were overcome at the sight of this beast, and then it took a few years to witness a P-51 flying in the Kings Cup Air Race.
Things will obviously change, whether it’s for the better seems to be in the hands of EU regulations, though in years to come when we are being ruled by the Chinese, perhaps the Stirlings will eventually make an appearance.

I fancy LL is right about the jets, however I can’t envisage an airshow demand for Tucanos and Hawks neither, both stalwart RAF trainers, but hardly what a crowd is dying to see perform.

I think you are right most of the way, but even Tucanos and Hawks will be rare birds at some stage. Once their active servicelife is over, they will be missed at airshows.

Restoring and flying vintage aircraft has always been about vision. Dismissing even the idea of a private F-15 (although it might seem impossible now) will not produce anything. At some stage they will be as rare and exotic as a Bf-109 is today. People who flew and saw them in their youth, might want to relive their past, just as many WWII warbirds started their 2nd life.

Flying current fighter aircraft as private jets in the future might be improbable, but I wouldnt go as far, as saying its impossible.

Complete cuckoland to expect F-15s and Tornados etc to be on the preserved airshow circuit, there is neither the will, regulations, or economic conditions to allow it.

Look at the massive problems of trying to fly XH558. Even the Sea Vixen dosen’t perform at airshows as much as it used to, there isn’t even a Buccaneer flying in this country, and what happened to all those Vampire/Venoms and Gnats we saw a few years back? Warbirds also seem to be gently dwindling in numbers, any one who remembers the Old Wardon and North Weald shows of the past can see that. There is plenty of will behind these projects, which are comparitively straight forward, but are struggling with costs and regulations. Don’t even mention Lightnings!

I fancy LL is right about the jets, however I can’t envisage an airshow demand for Tucanos and Hawks neither, both stalwart RAF trainers, but hardly what a crowd is dying to see perform.

As for the mentioned light civil jets, who on earth would want to pay £20 to see them perform? Just stand at the end of a civil airport.

I reckon future airshows will be similar to current ones, a mixture of service types (F-15 and Tornado might still be around!) and historic aircraft, but less actual events and types. Hopefully the recent trend of sending warbirds across from the States to perform at shows will continue. Environmental and economic conditions are going to play an ever larger role in airshows and aircraft ownership.

You might be right about the rough cut-off date.

Perhaps it will result in a shift towards taxiable fighters. Although I can’t really see people paying too much simply to taxi an aircraft. Operating a taxiable F-15 might be equal in cost, to operating an airworthy Spitfire.

The current frontline fighters seem destined to fade away as their servicelife comes to an end. They are not the first to do so.

I think there’s going to be a rough date where after which aircraft are just too complex to operate on limited budgets. At the moment i think it’s around the mid 70’s.
Most frontline aircraft built after this have a lot of complex systems like fly by wire and fadec engines etc, lots of complex avionics, and more lately composite structures. Most of this stuff was/is hard enough to keep reliable when you have the full resourses of an airforce behind you, and i think it may well be beyond the scope of most private companies.
Yes, you’ll probably have the odd individual who will fund a single example of a particular aircraft that they have an affinity with, yes, you’ll have simpler types like trainers, but i think the days of having ex frontline aircraft are long over.

I have to say I’d like to see the insurance rules changed. That seemed to start the current decline and don’t seem to properly represent the actual risk.

…when I reach my century, drugs permitting….

Don’t worry Pete, if Clapton can get clean, I’m sure you can too!:D

You may be right in principle, but it certainly won’t be the Javelin, which has reached the end of its development road. 🙁

Pity. It was always quite high on my ‘post-lottery win’ list

Moggy

Don’t stop buying those lotto tickets.

From the Javelin website (news 3/3 2008).

“Since suspending the development of the Javelin in late December 2007, the Aviation Technology Board of Directors has continued to engage in negotiations with its strategic partner and various financial institutions. These discussions include developing alternatives to continue operations in the short-term as well as long-term options.

Much of the focus over the last several weeks has been in renegotiating both credit and teaming agreements. We are pleased to report that this task has been accomplished.

The efforts of the Board are now focused on negotiations with interested parties pursuing a possible sale or a majority buyout of ATG.

Multiple teams are pursuing a list of potential buyers. Though subject to change, the general plan in this regard is to ask for best and final offer bids from prospective buyers to reach ATG within the next few weeks. At that point the board will review all bids and negotiate with interested parties. “

Well, it’s declined steadily over the past 25+ years, and with ever increasing fuel/insurance costs and even fuel availability for the WW2 warbirds, there has to be a question mark on the privately owned stuff, not to mention the potential continued operational commitments on the current military hardware, so, I’d say the future is pretty bleak for airshows as we know them.

Just look at the traditional RAF sponsered Open Days/Battle of Britain shows. There were over 50 of them back in mid 1950’s, and that had reduced down to a dozen or so by the late 1980’s, and is now down to just 3 this year with Leuchars back on the list……:rolleyes:

Think of all the USAFE open days that have disappeared too in the last 20 years.

Stangely enough I feel that private warbird numbers are on the rise. We might (as you seem to hint) be looking at environmental legislation, that will prevent operation of high octane gasolin engines. I don’t think it will be a financial issue for the operators, as there are people willing to pay the price for operating warbirds.

The military airshows have been declining. The military simply don’t feel they get their investment back (here is another side of the current economic mainstream view, which I won’t start shouting about now). They have choosen to “downsize” this part of their public relations. Its a shame and might also be a bad decision, as friendly interaction between the military and the population is what produces recruits (part of what makes people get to know the military, as more than headlines).

Here is a gasthly thought: Could it happen, that the British state one day “downsized” BBMF to a static display?

Not for technical reasons, but purely due to economics (investment and return).

I think “sports Jets” dressed up to look military will be a part, like the Viperjet and Javelin

You may be right in principle, but it certainly won’t be the Javelin, which has reached the end of its development road. 🙁

Pity. It was always quite high on my ‘post-lottery win’ list

Moggy

So you actually think the scene will decline?

Well, it’s declined steadily over the past 25+ years, and with ever increasing fuel/insurance costs and even fuel availability for the WW2 warbirds, there has to be a question mark on the privately owned stuff, not to mention the potential continued operational commitments on the current military hardware, so, I’d say the future is pretty bleak for airshows as we know them.

Just look at the traditional RAF sponsered Open Days/Battle of Britain shows. There were over 50 of them back in mid 1950’s, and that had reduced down to a dozen or so by the late 1980’s, and is now down to just 3 this year with Leuchars back on the list……:rolleyes:

Think of all the USAFE open days that have disappeared too in the last 20 years.

Err……that means you’re not even born yet….by at least 42 years 😉

Anyway, I suspect that the airshow scene as we know it today (let alone of 20+ years ago:( ) will be have ceased to exist within the next 10-15 years.

Stop being so mathematical 😀

So you actually think the scene will decline?