VOC – history

Since Britain had northest US as colonys, that became their supply of Oak when they ran out of Oak forests.

Not even that much. Britain was heavily forested originally, so there was plenty of timber to be found in England to make the huge fleets. The British ran out of forests during the Industrial Revolution. Before they started digging for coal to power their machinery and keep the steel mills furnaces running, they cut down the British forests.

Mind you, both the Dutch and the British had far easier acces to shipping timber through trading with the Baltic, for backup. Spain was far less forested than either of those two countries. In the beginning this didn’t matter all that much since the original ships from the Columbian era were really, really tiny. But about a century later, far larger fleets of ships five or six times bigger were required for both warfare and long-range trade. Spain’s forests couldn’t support that.

Too bad the Spanish couldn’t make fleets out of paella. Then they’d be rockin!

There was a number of reasons for this, one of the more important and mundane ones is that Spain simply ran out of timber to build large fleets with. The Armada simply used most of Spain’s oak forests.

Since Britain had northest US as colonys, that became their supply of Oak when they ran out of Oak forests.

I think the Catholic/Protestant struggle had alot to do with it Ben. And to say it was backward to be allied with the Hapsbourg empire is a bit strong.

True, but protestantism and a good economy went together. You see, it were the rich civilians who became the first reformists. The catholics farmers in ‘the backward’ regions were – sorry to say it – incapable of making the step towards a new religion. I’m not saying this, Max Weber does. Belgium today is mostly catholic, because most protestants fleed from Spanish suppression.

Don’t want to disappoint people who visit Belgium, but Waterloo is a shame! No infrastructure, the kind of historical site with dirty toilets (where you have to pay) because it’s private-owned. There are enough other historical places to visit, but Waterloo is crap. So, you can betters spend the hours drinking a Mort Subite or a Geuze (!) in Brussels or Antwerp.

Do you feel Napoleon should’ve used his Guard at Borodino?

Oh snap, you’ve been to Borodino?

Is the great redoubt still visible? Did you get to see Bagration’s flechettes?

Well, only in the earlier years of the Spanish-Dutch war religion was much of an issue, with the Catholic zealot of Philippe II of course one of the more rabid pro-Catholics of the era. In the later years few people in the Low Countries cared anymore (unlike Germany where the Thirty Years war raged on fueled by religious intolerance). Especially in the more peripherical areas of the Low Countries, rural areas switched side and religion several times. Mostly out of pure opportunism.

As for the defeat of the Armada: during the early stages of the battle, the wind actually turned which effectively bottled up the Spanish fleet.

Never been to Waterloo, i’m sorry. Only Napoleonic battlefield i visited were Borodino, Bykhav and Orsha 🙂

However, the more backward provinces (which are now Eastern-Netherlands and Southern belgium) didn’t want the war.

Backward? What the… The Achterhoek (amongst others) is far from backward. It may be slow, dull, traditional, conservative and boring… it is not backward! 😀

Zelhem, het groene hart van de achterhoek… met natuurlijk Radio Ideaal! LOL

I think the Catholic/Protestant struggle had alot to do with it Ben. And to say it was backward to be allied with the Hapsbourg empire is a bit strong.

Quite a difficult time, and to be honest, don’t ask me to explain how the allianes changed because that’s impossible!

Don’t worry, that’s already a very good explanation. Besides, alliances then changed on whims.

I have another question for you people in the Benelux region.

Have you visited the Waterloo Battlefield? I’ve only been there once and just had enough time to climb the lion monument to the Prince of Orange to survey the field. My question is- are there any signs of evidence (or is it still visible today) of the famous ‘sunken road’ described by Victor Hugo in Les Mis. that supposedly swallowed up many of Napoleon’s finest cuirassiers?

It’s also noteworthy to point out that the the border between the Republic and the Spanish Netherlands were a coincidence. Actually, the fight against the Spanish began in Flanders and so continued throughout Brabant and Holland. However, the more backward provinces (which are now Eastern-Netherlands and Southern belgium) didn’t want the war. When Parma tried to reconquer the territories, all provinces suddenly became quite selfish and hence it explained why Holland was remained liberated but Flanders and Brabant were retaken.

Fact is the people from the North/Sout Netherlands have one thing in common: egoism :D.

The fact why the Spanish continued their war against the Republic for another 40-years was not because they wanted to retake the Republic, it was clear the latter was too powerfull and had powerfull allies (England and France), but because the ‘Dutch’ blocked the river Schelde, so the port of Antwerp, and thus the whole SN couldn’t not trade with the rest of the world. In fact, I even think it were people from the SN who insisted on continuing the war with the Republic, even though the Spanish would rather use the force to fight against the ever growing empires of the French and the English.

Quite a difficult time, and to be honest, don’t ask me to explain how the allianes changed because that’s impossible!

Thanks Arthur- you and Geforce are a mine for Dutch history. 🙂

I think that the Duke of Medina was expecting the English to use fireships, and had sent patrol boats out, but what he didn’t expect was the use of large fireships, and a larger number of them as well. Not to mention his undisciplined captains who scattered thinking that the fireships were filled with gunpowder (as had been used on previous occasions).

D’Artagnan died when storming Maastricht (now in the Netherlands) in 1672. Maastricht was a Republic-controlled city in what was still known as the Spanish Netherlands. And don’t ask for details about that – the region in which Maastricht lies has had more micro-borders changing every two weeks than any other part of the world i can think of. The city of Roermond where i was born (some 50km north of Maastricht) has been owned by seven different countries (France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Spain, Russia and The Netherlands) in less than 400 years :rolleyes:

The Duke of Parma was indeed sent to the Netherlands from Spain in order to reconquer/reclaim the breakaway Republic for Spain. But when he was fighting at one place, other places do as they pleased and joined/stayed with/re-joined the Republic. We were a pretty unhandable bunch of people then 🙂

It should be noted in the battle of the spanish armada that the spanish were using carracks which were ships with high castles built on them for hand to hand fighting whereas the british develeoped galleons used to take advantage of more powerful canons being developed at that time to making the ship itself a weapon. Firearms were becoming a dominate weapon on the battlefield as well. Since the ships themselves did not need to fight side by side against an attacking enemy, they were able to be made lower, doing away with the big castle structures which in turn made them faster and point higher. Fireships were effective against ships in port when the attacker had weather guage (wind advantage). The ships were covered with pitch to make them burn longer. The defenders had to row out and try and stop or divert these fireships before they could do their damage.

Tactics like this managed to keep the war affordable for the Republic, and since the city of Amsterdam wasn’t bothered much by the Spaniards the Republic could afford to take it easy in waging the war. As a matter of fact, one of the few large-scale battles between the Spanish and the Republic (Nieuwpoort, 1600) was because the army of the Republic accidentally bumped into the Spanish army. The original mission of the Republic’s army was to go out and destroy a nest of pirates around Dunkirk, which was hampering the trade of the Republic.

I thought the Duke of Parma conquered most of the Netherlands, or he just conquered the major cities? 🙂

Anyone remember the ending of Dumas’ Man in the Iron Mask? D’Artagnan buys the farm while he’s storming a fortress in what I would presume to be Spanish Flanders. Far be it for Dumas to be historically accurate, but was D’Artagnan storming a Spanish held city, or some other place in Holland (non-Spanish held)?

The original mission of the Republic’s army was to go out and destroy a nest of pirates around Dunkirk, which was hampering the trade of the Republic.

And hence the Dutch invented the word “overuren” 😀

You didn’t need to have large colonialist armies back then. Just give the crew of your ships firearms (let’s say some 200 men aboard a decent sized trading/colonisation flottila) to shoot a few inlanders, bribe a few chief tribesmen, and you suddenly find yourself ruling an area. The Dutch colonised the East Indies for a significant part by proxy, meaning that until today the people from the island of Java are the ones who run the whole country of Indonesia in a semi-colonial way.

The Spanish Armada of 1588 was fought together by the Dutch and British, as the Republic and the UK were sort of allied that day of the week. The destruction of this fleet, first by De Ruyter and the combined Dutch-British fleet and later by storm, basically ended Spain’s position as a maritime nation. There was a number of reasons for this, one of the more important and mundane ones is that Spain simply ran out of timber to build large fleets with. The Armada simply used most of Spain’s oak forests.

As for the Dutch ‘military’ might during the 80 Years War, this shouldn’t be overestimated. The Spanish were defeated by an interesting mixture of guerilla warfare (the Geuzen), technological innovations (so what if the enemy has inundated a besieged city, we’ll simply drain those inundations!) and only a handful large campaigns with bigger formations of hired soldiers. Naval warfare wasn’t much different – the Armada was defeated mostly because of the Dutch ‘Burners’, very small and low vessels (sailing UNDER the Spanish cannon trajectories) filled with combustibles, which were sailed towards the Spanish ships, attached to them by their crews and set alight with the crew then escaping in a small raft-like rescue boat.

Tactics like this managed to keep the war affordable for the Republic, and since the city of Amsterdam wasn’t bothered much by the Spaniards the Republic could afford to take it easy in waging the war. As a matter of fact, one of the few large-scale battles between the Spanish and the Republic (Nieuwpoort, 1600) was because the army of the Republic accidentally bumped into the Spanish army. The original mission of the Republic’s army was to go out and destroy a nest of pirates around Dunkirk, which was hampering the trade of the Republic.

I am of the mind that the Spanish were incompetent sailors. I don’t recall them ever winning any major naval engagement? :confused: Yet, despite being poor sailors, they seemed to be decent infantry. Their tercios upheld their military hegemony really until the Duc d’Enghien destroyed them at Rocroi in 1643.

In the early days of the Habsburg Empire they didn’t have to engage because they had a monopoly. They builded lots of ships, but mostly for trade and transport of troops I reckon. Therefor I think they were supprised by the fact that the Dutch and English would attack their ships on the sea rather than wait untill they are back on shore. 🙂 So they were probably not really incompetent, it was just a new form of warfare. Compare it to the fact that Americans today are not prepared for terrorist attacks against their regular troops. Different military tactics.