VOC – history

I am of the mind that the Spanish were incompetent sailors. I don’t recall them ever winning any major naval engagement? :confused: Yet, despite being poor sailors, they seemed to be decent infantry. Their tercios upheld their military hegemony really until the Duc d’Enghien destroyed them at Rocroi in 1643.

Let me add to that- their sailors and their cavalry were incompetent, but their infantry was disciplined and effective.

That’s another item I’m curious about- how much were they expending to maintain their Spanish Netherlands and/or other areas of suzerainty? The amount of silver and gold that they were importing from the New World was considerable, yet not even enough to build warships to protect their treasure fleets. And this wasn’t just in the waning years of the Spanish Empire either.

They could keep the Southern Netherlands because of international trouble. The other option for the SN would be to support France and the Dutch Republic. But they realised that they would probably be absorbed into France anyway, and the Dutch were at that time not really interested anymore in the south, because that would mean these territories would compete against Holland (Amsterdam vs Antwerp).

The Spanish gave lots of autonomy towards the people living in the SN. Actually, they only had to pay taxes, which would have happened as well when they were under controll of the Dutch, or a lot worse, the French.

The gold from the New World was not half enough to back the military spendings. Unlike the 19th century colonisation, they didn’t exploit the New World, not because they didn’t want to, but simply because they didn’t have the manpower or even the money to start such an operation. They stole, raped, murdered whole populations in America, but apperently it didn’t make the state richer, maybe some companies or the king, but not the state as a whole.

They were not incompetent, just, their days were behind them.

I am of the mind that the Spanish were incompetent sailors. I don’t recall them ever winning any major naval engagement? :confused: Yet, despite being poor sailors, they seemed to be decent infantry. Their tercios upheld their military hegemony really until the Duc d’Enghien destroyed them at Rocroi in 1643.

You mean the armada invencibile in 1588 or what? I think Tromp fought the English together with de Ruyter in the 1650’s war, not the Spanish. However, it could be that you refer to the occupation of the Dutch of the city of Duinkerke. I doubt that this Armada was bigger than the one in 1588 because it was clear that after the Thirty year war Spain was no longer a superpower which it was under the leadership of Philips II. In fact, it couldn’t even protect the Netherlands anymore from the French. The 1588 action was an act of arrogance towards queen Elizabeth, the latter one was a last attempt of Spain to protect the Netherlands from French occupation. However, the alliances changed like every minutes back then.

Not the 1588 Armada. I think the later one near Duinkerke (Dunkirk?).

It simply didn’t have the money, not even with the overseas possessions.

That’s another item I’m curious about- how much were they expending to maintain their Spanish Netherlands and/or other areas of suzerainty? The amount of silver and gold that they were importing from the New World was considerable, yet not even enough to build warships to protect their treasure fleets. And this wasn’t just in the waning years of the Spanish Empire either.

They were not incompetent, just, their days were behind them. The Spanish state was banckrupt, unlike the English. The fact that the Spanish lost in 1588 was because the fleet was based in the Netherlands I think, and the troops were already tired of fighting. In 1650, Spain was not a maritime power, only the Dutch and the British were. It simply didn’t have the money, not even with the overseas possessions.

Much as Spain lost its maritime hegemony to the English, the same fate was preserved for landwarfare, from now on the French (Louis XIV) were Europe’s continental power.

And why were the Spaniards, for much of the 16th-17th century, incompetent navy-men? Despite building massive men-of-war, always getting their arses handed to them on silver plates?

Sure they had their tercios on land, but nothing capable on the sea.

I have a question for you seafaring pot smoking Dutch pirate guys. 🙂

Does anyone have more info on Admiral Tromp’s annihilation of the Spanish Fleet? I hear that the spanish fleet he defeated was much bigger than the armada that the English trounced.

You mean the armada invencibile in 1588 or what? I think Tromp fought the English together with de Ruyter in the 1650’s war, not the Spanish. However, it could be that you refer to the occupation of the Dutch of the city of Duinkerke. I doubt that this Armada was bigger than the one in 1588 because it was clear that after the Thirty year war Spain was no longer a superpower which it was under the leadership of Philips II. In fact, it couldn’t even protect the Netherlands anymore from the French. The 1588 action was an act of arrogance towards queen Elizabeth, the latter one was a last attempt of Spain to protect the Netherlands from French occupation. However, the alliances changed like every minutes back then.

I have a question for you seafaring pot smoking Dutch pirate guys. 🙂

Does anyone have more info on Admiral Tromp’s annihilation of the Spanish Fleet? I hear that the spanish fleet he defeated was much bigger than the armada that the English trounced.

Could be Brad, but these outposts were no colonies like in the 19th century. They were based on trade rather than on military pressure I think. Therefor I find it strange to read the VOC created Batavia manu militari. I mean, the Dutch were just not able to have a large expeditionary force like the British or the French a century later. The army of the Republic was composed of just 30 000 men, the Spanish troops in the southern Netherlands were at the fall of Antwerp in 1585 more than twice the amount!! Apart from that, only the province of Holland and Utrecht were important. 30 000 men was nothing, even back then.

I believe the Dutch fought land battles also to secure their spice trade outposts in asia. Incredible when you think of the huge amount of time it took to sail there.

Thanks for the info. I know the WIC were a bunch of pirates, hijacking Spanish ships with silver (Piet Heyn). You say the Republic (or at least Holland) was rich, however, it was not at all powerfull. It’s military capabilities were limited compared to England, France or the Spanish Netherlands. I don’t know much on historical warfare in general, but it’s difficult to understand the Republic was so rich and prosperous, when formally, it was still at war untill 1648! I know it wasn’t 80 years of constant warfare, but for such a small country, they proved either to be very powerfull or on the other hand very smart (f.i. blocking the port of Antwerp so Amsterdam could take over its role). Is this the evidence that a country which is economically a superpower doesn’t need a strong defence, as long as it doesn’t become arrogant (like the Stadhouders were in the 18th century).

Also, was the VOC a multinational? I mean, did people from other countries invest in it?

The Dutch Republic at the time was incredibly rich anyway. The city of Amsterdam did’t see any fighting during the war, and thanks to a large influx of capital from Antwerp (the bulk of the Antwerpian rich people fled Antwerp for Amsterdam when Antwerp definately fell to the Spanish in the late 1500s) Amsterdam, and with it the Republic, could thrive.

Also, the VOC was the first company to actually sell shares. Wealthy traders (a significant part of them arms traders with Spain 😀 ) put their money in the VOC, which helped that company a lot. Another helpful source of income was the WIC, or the West Indische Compagnie. These were basically hired pirates who hung out in the Caribbean, preying for Spanish merchant vessels. This put even more pressure on Spain being overstretched already, so there wasn’t much to fear from them in the main Dutch colonies. Don’t forget that until the late 1500s, the only people who know the sailing routes towards the East were the Dutch and the Spaniards.

The VOC did have some combat capability on it’s ships, but this was mostly defensive. The WIC had far better armed ships for it’s piracy job.