Vulcan escape question?

But on the other hand was the VC10 or Comet fitted with escape systems? exmpa

The VC10 K2 & K3 tanker variants were fitted with an extending escape chute utilising the forward port door – only five parachutes were to be carried and had to be donned prior to diving ‘down the hatch’. If PAX were carried, the chutes were stowed in the freight bay! The general consensus amongst the crews was that without it ( if you got through the door ! ) you would take an LP2 reading on the way and with it you had a 50/50 chance of hitting the port wing.

The system was eventually abandoned, thankfully having never been tested for real. In flight, the chute conveniently served as a holder for a bin liner for waste food etc 😀

ahh… that would explain why 319 has a fuel tank, a big gap with a single bomb point, and finally a single 1000lb carrier…….

or maybe not.

Vulcan903,

No, Nuclear stike was still the Vulcan’s main weapon of choice, right up until her retirement. Loadout was a single WE177. Although 21 x 1000 was practiced, it did not form the main part of the Vulcan role. This is in part why the Black Buck crews had so much trouble brushing up their rusty Free-Fall skills, prior to bombing Stanley!

Flipflopman

That’s correct, 500′ was the normal training height by day.

exmpa

I thought be mid 1970’s the atomic delivery was by the Navy, and the RAF went on to 21 x 1000lb’ers?

The internal shots show the crew flying to practise a nuc bomb drop from 500ft?

That’s correct, 500′ was the normal training height by day.

exmpa

Yes, it’s good, the musiC however is a bit ropy, especially with the end credits!

XM600 featured in a ATV program in 1973 Where the Big Birds Fly – Calendar Special. The crew flew XM600 out to Goose and the TV crew followed them around. Interview by Nav Robbie Stewart of Gulf War 1 fame.

The internal shots show the crew flying to practise a nuc bomb drop from 500ft? and also the RPM guages show 0% power because the internal shots used the crew trainer at Scampton/Waddington.

I bought this off you about 3 years ago Paul and the low level filming, especially the bit where she roars over the camera at about 150ft is fantastic!! 😀

See above, but Anglesey, Durham and Spilsby were all successful abandonments.

Everyone got out of XA891, the B2 electrical system testbed, in ’59 after she had a total electrical failure over Hull.

XM600 featured in a ATV program in 1973 Where the Big Birds Fly – Calendar Special. The crew flew XM600 out to Goose and the TV crew followed them around. Interview by Nav Robbie Stewart of Gulf War 1 fame.

The internal shots show the crew flying to practise a nuc bomb drop from 500ft? and also the RPM guages show 0% power because the internal shots used the crew trainer at Scampton/Waddington.

I learnt recently of a story that suggested one of the crew was briefly hung up on the exit door but was able to get free and away.

That’s correct. The rear crew Personal Equipment Connector (PEC) which supplied oxygen and intercomm had to be manually disconnected before abadonment. IIRC the sequence was to pull the Emergency Oxygen Toggle and undo the PEC then operate the assistor cushion. Apparently one of the crew did not not undo the PEC and was hung up on the door for a period until he managed to free himself.

exmpa

Interesting replies!

Thanks guys! I had never heard of the escape pod idea before..

I can confirm that the crew of XM600, Spilsby crash, all escaped ok…

I watched events unfolding from the school sports field…a Vulcan coming in from the coast with a large light visible….no light, but a fierce fire with as it got closer a trail of black smoke quite visible….somehow I felt it would keep going…but then we saw a parachute, then another, and then a third…even then I still felt it would fly on by..but it suddenly pointed 45 degrees downwards…another parachute was seen….then the Vulcan went out sight..and a huge fireball errupted..but I don’t recall any bang…a huge smoke ring slowly drifted off to the North.

I was very concerned at seeing no fifth ‘chute and it was only on the early evening news that I learnt that the pilot had in fact escaped ok..landing in Northorpe road Halton Holegate outside the home of a former squadron colleague.!!

How I discovered soon after that it was XM600 is another story;)

I learnt recently of a story that suggested one of the crew was briefly hung up on the exit door but was able to get free and away.

Clive.

Did ther Valiant trial sideways ejection seats? I always thought that particular idea was dropped due to the intakes, and the sideways G inflicted on the crew…..

Of the Vulcans lost in accidents I think only one complete crew managed to survive.

See above, but Anglesey, Durham and Spilsby were all successful abandonments.

exmpa

When the Vulcan spec was first issued in 1946, no one had much idea of what it would be like to fly at 50000 ft.
The problem of teh escape of the crew from a pressure cabin of an aircraft traveling at high speed presents many difficulties declared a Farnborough paper on the “The Vulnerability of a Future Bomber Aircraft” in Feb 1948. A cabin may be which may be jettisonable in a emergency appears to offer the most satisfactory solution.

A jettisonable crew compartment was written into the Vulcan Spec. The captain would press a button whereupon the control linkages would sever and explosive bolts would push the pressure cabin clear. Hinged fins would thenstabilise the tumbling nose before a large parachute came out from behind to lower the cabin withthecrew still strapped into there seats.

Avro spent a lot of time on this and just could not get it to work and they convinced the Ministry to abandon the idea.
They looked at a second canopy about the rear desk, which would not had been a problem for the designers.

Basically the Ministry did not ask for all seats to be jettisonable, so the designers did what the 1946 spec asked them to do.

Most of the reasons have been covered above, but there are a few other considerations. The fitting of an ejection syatem for the rear crew only really became an issue when it was realised that the aircraft was going into the low level role. Nevertheless, work had been done before this as a result of incidents such as the Heathrow crash. Cutting an aperture in the structure to allow egress of the seats was a major modification and would have been expensive and difficult. Added to that the sequenced ejection system itself was a very complex piece of kit and making sure it worked as advertised, without fail, every time would have been challenging. Remember we are talking electro-mechanics here, clockwork timers etc., no electronics and the whole sequence would have been relatively slow. The system may have had quite high lower speed and height limits for successful operation.

You also have to remember that many (most?) of the rear crew were not happy about having to spend all the trip strapped in to a live seat and were not fully convinced of the necessity for it. It is an emotive issue, but I certainly felt this was the case with the crews I flew with. They recognised the necessity of an escape system for the pilots because there really was no other practical way for us to abandon under any circumstances but they felt that the systems installed in the rear would be adequate under most conditions. These systems were the swivel seats for the Nav Rad and AEO, the seats swivelled inwards towards the door and the assistor cushions that inflated to propel the occupant out of the seat towards the door well. The Nav Plotter’s seat moved rearwards (i.e. towards the nose as the crew faced backwards) and was also fitted with an assistor cushion to help him stand up. The entrance door was armed so that it could be opened either by the door handle itself, in a quadrant on the rhs of the frame (facing rearwards) or by a switch at the Nav Rad’s station. Use of the Emergency Opening system directed 3000psi air into the jacks, the door would go down!

Abandonment with the gear down was somewhat problematical and involved holding onto one door jack and swinging to one side to avoid the nose leg, Hmmm. But on the other hand was the VC10 or Comet fitted with escape systems? The Vulcan was/is a Group A aircraft just like them and judged no more at risk of a low speed incident than those other types. Yes, I know about Heathrow, Cottesmore, Luqa; but that was the thinking at the time. I also recall the successful abandonments of the Mk1A over Anglesey, XM610 near Durham and the one in the vicinity of Spilsby some years later. A riskier scenario for the rear crew was, in my opinion, abandonment with the Blue Steel fin extended. We all saw the film, but he didn’t miss it by much.

So at the end of the day it was all about the weighing up of the considerable additional cost and the probable delay in getting the Mk2 aircraft into service if a rear crew escape system was to be fitted against the likelihood that it would prove its value in service. It might have saved the lives of 3 crew at Cottesmore in 1968 but this is by no means certain. The Captain finally ejected very near the seat limits and was lucky to survive. At Luqa there may have been a different outcome, but remember they had a crew chief on the aircraft and there still would have been no provison for him. Detroit, well I don’t think it would have made any difference there, although that one is a bit more complex.

So that’s the story as I see it, albeit looking back some 35 years.

exmpa

I think that the original specification called for a jettisonable crew compartment…

I’ve not heard that about the Vulcan but it was certainly true of the Victor.

I’ve always thought it could have been due to wartime experience with the Lancaster.

How many accounts had there been of pilots ‘holding it steady’ while the rest of the crew baled-out only to be lost themselves.

Even in its intended high-level role I don’t think there would have been much chance for the rear crew in a shot-down Vulcan; the speeds and g-forces involved would have made escape very difficult.

In the end (as has been said) it probably came down to cost.

Of the Vulcans lost in accidents I think only one complete crew managed to survive.

I think that the original specification called for a jettisonable crew compartment, like a giant F-111. In which case none of the crew would have needed ejection seats.

Perhaps when this was cancelled they found they couldn’t fit five seats in?

The three crew in the rear had to jump/slide out of the entry hatch.
I believe the pneumatic rams forced it down (against the slipstream) and the access ladders were released to fall out of the hatch leaving a smooth surface to slide down.
At low-level the high risk of jumping out was made worse by the fact the undercarraige might be down and the massive nose-wheel leg would be in the way.
IIRC in the Martin-Baker system that was being developed the centre seat went out first then the left and right seats canted over at an angle – one following the other so that all three went out through the same opening in the roof.

Roger Smith.

Utterly from memory, so probably a bad call, but I’ll put it up to be popped at anyway.

Wasn’t it at least in part that, until the loss of XA897 at Heathrow, no-one had really considered the problems of aircrew exit from the rear seats? I think they actually had to unstrap and climb out and, in the event of anything going pear-shaped anywhere near the runway this just wasn’t feasible. It probably wasn’t feasible anywhere in flight unless the aircraft was reasonably straight and level, and you don’t tend to have that happening when you need to leave…

Adrian