War dead to be driven down side streets "to avoid the public"

my apologies – i had read the post re the councillers comments, but hadnt noted who called it, then picked up on the last lines of youre last post and missinterperated what you were saying,

excuse me while i extract my right foot

Lindermyer,
I wasn’t saying they were. I think I am on the side of common sense interpretation of this news story and cutting through the fog of media ‘outrage’. I did after all post the response from Councillor Adrian Coomber regarding the matter (or did you skim over that post?) – post #17.

I was saying that while some may view what happens at WB as a “mawkish spectacle”, at least people are showing support of the troops, which is preferable to ignoring the issue and in effect “turning their backs on returning troops or, worse, their coffins…”.

They are not turning there backs on any one – as it quite clearly states there will be facillities for most importantly families and provision will be made those who wish to pay their respects.

The fact is lynham is closing therefore the flights will be landing at Brize – a route change was therefore inevitable.

Official comments regarding the route not passing Schools, Houses etc was more in regard to married quarters, not local villages, bearing in mind many of those will have husbands fathers (wives mothers these days to) on active service.

My nephew is currently serving in Helmand.

I attended WB a few months ago with former service colleagues for a repatriation. I don’t believe any one of us did it to be part of the “mawkish spectacle” that Gareth Attridge feels it has become. We were thanked by the individual’s family for being present. We had our reasons to be there – the main one being out of respect.

I don’t want to have to visit whatever venue replaces WB – it was one of the saddest things I have ever attended, but slightly ‘uplifting’ at the same time, that so many people actually take time out of their day to stop and reflect on the sacrifices our servicemen and women are making.

Far better this than turning their backs on returning troops or, worse, their coffins…

Arthur,

for once you and I agree.

your last few sentances said it all.

Indeed I agree.

Please PM me with your answer so we can finish this discussion off forum and not disturb this thread anymore.

No, I don’t think so – I think I’ll let it go – you clearly have some issues with what I’ve written despite the fact I have been respectful and considerate at every point. I am entitled to an opinion as to what people should be outraged at and this, as events have shown, and as I thought all along, is not one of them.

That link to the Hangar says all that needs to be said and shows the press for what they are – trying to create stories where there are none. The fact that they tried to create a story from this particular issue shows the depths to which they will stoop.

Thank you that man for the most informative link.

To all who are discussing this topic.

I stand by all that I have said.

Arthur,

Selective quotations at their best. This is a dicussion forum and as such should be used by us all for the dicussion of said topic.

Where in my post have I been disrespectful??

Also what you quoted from my post was no more or less what has been said in any of the news reports on here. What do you see as not treating the post with dignity about using the words carted off??? I could have said whisked away. Sped away. What words would you have me use Arthur??

Please PM me with your answer so we can finish this discussion off forum and not disturb this thread anymore.

RE: Outraged, Please read my post again I never ever said I was outraged.

I simply gave my opinion on what I thought. Bobs post is a very welcome post about the construction of the Garden but I fail to see where this has any bearing on the fact that my post lacks dignity. I dont think you are the right person to say whats dignified and what is not when it comes to other people. Anyhow lets not turn this post into as me versus you battle as so many other post do. Lets just stick to our own opinions. RE: the Garden While a very welcome idea and indeed it seems this will go ahead. Apart from the families if they so wish. Who will actually turn up. How much of an effort will it be to get to this area. I only ask as I have no idea myself not knowing the area all that well. I think it gives the family a quiet place to reflect if they so wish but it is a far cry from passing through a town who could stop during their everyday hustle and bustle to pay their respects. How many people will now not go because its too far and requires far more planning.

Maybe I am the only one to feel like this and so be it. It is my ideas and opinion only.

I will state again I am only interested in the thoughts and feeling of the Military families involved. My thoughts will always be with them.

Why should we only honour the fallen on one day of the year? For some, every day is Remembrance Day….

Very well said Bob. Indeed. Something for a lot of people on here to think about.

Thank you very much indeed for posting that link. It says it all and there can be no room for doubt as to the reasons but also illustrates the need for better PR/Communication so that the ill-informed can be better informed.

Current RAF serviceman, former Team Merlin manager and current RAF Presentations Team member Gareth Attridge wrote a blog about this at The Hangar a couple of days ago. Essential reading if you can spare a couple of minutes.

There’s a lot more to the story than the sensationalist media would have you believe.

http://thehangar.tv/profiles/blogs/paying-respect-to-our-fallen

I have to say that any displays of support for those serving, be it for a solemn repatriation cortege or regiment’s homecoming march is something that those serving are probably grateful to see. I can recall a time when service personnel were warned not to wear their uniform around certain towns in the UK.
WB took it up itself to honour those being returned, with, at first, a simple observance of respect as the cortege passed through the town en route to the John Radcliffe Hospital, by a couple of RBL members.
Recently more and more former, and serving, servicemen and women have attended and I think this demonstration of ‘solidarity’ has been gratefully received by the grieving family and friends – a little comfort at their time of loss.

Some see this turn out as a morbid “Princess Di” outpouring of collective grief, but people stopping and taking a few moments to be respectful of a passing cortege is perhaps something lost recently in society.

Why should we only honour the fallen on one day of the year? For some, every day is Remembrance Day….

Let us hope that this memorial garden is never needed.

Sadly I think it will see some use for some time to come…

So please dont tell me or anyone else here to treat this matter with respect or dignity. I would be one of the first to tell someone off if they overstepped the mark and no one has yet. Lets get back to discussing the matter because this is what this place is.

And I believe you are the first to have overstepped the mark in your response. Everyone has indeed responded respectfully. Why didn’t you?

I was the first to bring up the fact that the route had changed in post number 3. Please read ALL the posts before responding.
Yes you have the right to get outraged by whatever you want but in this case your outrage has has been revealed by Bob’s post above to be utterly misplaced and thereby loses any dignity that any of the repatriation events should have.

if its right for their family member to be carted off through a side gate or through the public streets.

Is that really treating the matter with dignity?

I am normally never less than polite and respectful in my responses. I hope it can remain that way.

It is interesting that in the First World War only one soldier was repatriated and he is in Westminster abbey.

Due to economics and the relative size of the task compared to the resources available. Or simply that the men who died there remained with their fellow fallen soldiers. And probably a thousand other reasons we know nothing of. I am not a Great War historian but that is my take on the situation. We had very different ideas back then. How ideas can change in only 100 years.

I believe that relatives were becoming uncomfortable with having to display their grief in public during the “parades”.

As I said in my post my only thoughts are with the families and how they wish their loved one to be remembered. It should be their right alone to discuss and decide if its right for their family member to be carted off through a side gate or through the public streets.

If the route doesn’t go through Wootton Basset any more then so be it.

It doesnt we all know this already. This is fact or didn’t you read the article. I did!!

“Outrage” is fine but get outraged over something else.

It is our right to be outraged over any damned thing I please. I wasnt saying I was outraged by this I merely stated my own opinion and that these chaps and chapettes gave their lives for our freedom. Only thing that matters is their memory the thoughts and feelings of the family and that freedom that they gave their lives for.

Treat this matter with the dignity it deserves.

I have the utmost respect for our fallen and I thought we all were treating this thread with the dignity it so richly deserves. I dont think anyone has stepped out of line here yet have they? One or two people need to read the article properly and absorb what it says but nobody has berated or attacked the matter at hand.

Arthur have you ever been to a military funeral or parade. Or even a memorial ceremony. By that I mean as part of the military. It is quite a family affair. By that I mean your close military family as well as the persons family. Unfortunately I have been at a military memorial and everone feels it. Not just the actual family. We lost one of our own that day even though none of us knew them personally. It was very hard for everyone to take. I have since lost relatives in the passing years and none of them affected me the way that the military death did. Or was it that this one just prepared me for the death of others. I dont know.

So please dont tell me or anyone else here to treat this matter with respect or dignity. I would be one of the first to tell someone off if they overstepped the mark and no one has yet. Lets get back to discussing the matter because this is what this place is.

“A Discussion Forum”

Never let the facts get in the way of a good news story! :rolleyes:

Let us hope that this memorial garden is never needed.

On the Facebook page set up to ‘protest’ about this (isn’t Facebook wonderful?) there is actually a response from one of the Councillors. I repost it here only because it is way down the news feed page now…

Sean Tierney posted:
Hi JoJo, have just received the following reply from Councillor Coomber ref. the Memorial Garden – once again it would appear that all the concerns, worries and criticisms bases on limited knowledge have been allayed…all criticisms so far have been answered…hope that the following puts your mind at rest:

RE: Memorial Garden….
From…:
Adrian Coomber
To: Sean Tierney

Sean,

Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to the email you sent to me this morning.

When the route was finalised earlier in June, OCC announced that it and the two local councils would be working together with the Royal British Legion (RBL) to make sure there is a memorial garden at Norton Way where bereaved families will gather. Members of the Royal British Legion, other Ex-Service Organisations will also gather with their Standards together with members of the public at this spot on the route when repatriations occur.

The garden will be landscaped and a central part of it will be a flagpole from which the flag that currently flies at Wootton Bassett will be flown. There will be a special handover flag ceremony when RAF Brize Norton takes over repatriations from RAF Lyneham. This ceremony will happen in late August or early September.

The plan is to start work on the memorial garden very soon and the intention is for it to be a real focal point on the repatriation route and a suitable and dignified place for the bereaved family.

The chosen materials, plants, trees, design etc. is detail that I do not have to hand but I have asked the landscape architect who is designing this garden to provide me with outline dimensions etc. that I can share publicly. Please do not be concerned as some may be that the garden might be too small, that is quite inaccurate – the paved area will be quite substantial but sensitive to the surrounding environment and contrary to what some have suggested it is NOT directly outside the garage but rather up the road from the garage. As well as the garden itself there is approximately 1.4 miles of road with wide footpaths along Monahan Way where people could choose to line the route.

Once I have more detailed information with regard to dimensions, materials etc I will most gladly share them with you. I hope to have this information very soon.

I have today spoken with the senior management at OCC and can confirm that a dedicated repatriations website will be constructed by OCC and this will be online sometime in the next week or so and a dedicated email address has now been set up – [email]repatriations@oxfordshire.gov.uk[/email] . I’m sure you’ll agree that this is an excellent step in the right direction by OCC and will provide one central source of information and one central email account to deal solely with repatriation queries, the source being Oxfordshire County Council.

Yours sincerely,

Adrian

The memorial garden design is reported here –
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/9106028.BRIZE_REPATRIATIONS__Flag_is_focus_of_memorial_design/

Exactly right – your last sentence.

It is interesting that in the First World War only one soldier was repatriated and he is in Westminster abbey.
I believe that relatives were becoming uncomfortable with having to display their grief in public during the “parades”.
If the route doesn’t go through Wootton Basset any more then so be it. “Outrage” is fine but get outraged over something else. Treat this matter with the dignity it deserves.

Asking the relatives would seem the only sensible thing to do; it is still a free country so if the relatives want the cortège driven through the centre of Royal Wootton Bassett (for example) there isn’t a law in the land that can stop them.

As an aside until the Falklands War the MOD didn’t return war dead to the United Kingdom and I believe that policy was only changed because of the wishes of the relatives. Some relatives wanted their dead to remain in the Falklands and many Royal Navy dead were buried at sea. The Argentine government refused to have their war dead returned from the Falklands as they maintain that they are actually buried in Argentine territory!

I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the relatively new phenomenum of the public procession of coffins thtrougfh Wiltshire. Surely the choice of how their relative’s remains are returned to them should be the relatives’ choice and as private or as public as they wish.

There are strong political overtones to it, with some of the media using the occasions to make a political point about the action in the Middle East.

A Danish friend of mine expressed surprise and asked if the relatives minded these processions and I said that I was not sure if they were asked.

Perhaps they should be.

Some people would get outraged at anything really…

Arthur,

These men died so that we could be outraged at anything we like. Its called free speech and democracy.

Speaking from a personal point of view these fallen soldiers should be driven through the streets as a mark of respect and so that no one should forget their sacrifice.

But my only thoughts are for the families that have lost their loved ones and what their wishes are.

Personally I wish they (the government/MOD) Would stop changing so mant things and the traditions.

Soon we wont need an MOD as we will have no defence left to be in charge of. This is when the enemy will strike. Maybe not in my lifetime but it will happen.