War-graves A question of identification

Lesław Szczerbiński

The last Polish pilot to be killed in action was Ltn. Lesław Szczerbiński, who sank a German ship on 4 May 1945, but died in the bomb explosion.

Irregardless of Nationality, the CWGC mandate is to treat all casualties equally. To imply otherwise does you no credit.

Obviously ruffled some feathers with the forwarding of that specific comment of his. Not sure if I got you right or not, but I say again; It was not my words, and I would never support such opinion.

It doesn’t appear that you have a clear cut case, as there are other possibilities that cannot, as yet, be excluded.

Yes, I am aware of that, and because of it, I have stepped back on this case, waiting further investigation or finds by the people who contacted me.

I could give these two men all of your arguments, and they would most likely brush them off with theirs. Since I don’t know who I’m dealing with, their experience, expertise etc, it’s actually quite hard to be in the middle of this.

DCK and all
You might find this link of interest.
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/25199-sub-lt-herman-hirsch-becker-dfc.html
It certainly has me asking why the grave in the link is put up by the Norwegian equivalent of the CWGC.

It doesn’t appear that you have a clear cut case, as there are other possibilities that cannot, as yet, be excluded.

Irregardless of Nationality, the CWGC mandate is to treat all casualties equally. To imply otherwise does you no credit.

Yep, you’re correct there. Distances are about the same.

If he was killed outside Wangerooge, wouldn’t he be buried (if found) somewhere in that area, and not in Hamburg? I’m just saying. You could say my source is wrong, but I have a problem understanding how they would take the Poles body, transport it all the way to Hamburg and bury him the same day as he crashed. It seems like an awful lot of trouble.

I feel you could ask exactly the same set of questions regarding Major Arne Austeen as the distance seems more or less similar.
I understand that not all of those who are now buried at major war cemetries, such as the one at Hamburg Ohlsdorf, were buried there right after they died (and certainly not ‘the same day as crashed’). Many servicemen (including those who were not identified by their name) were buried locally at the time of their death, and were then exhumed after the war and re-buried at those major cemetries.

DCK, your source is plain wrong. I don’t know aboout the 19 Sqn pilots but ‘The Pole’ (F/Lt Leslaw Szczerbinski) was killed on 4 May 1945 attacking German shipping off Wangerooge and has no known grave, either, so I can’t see why he should be ‘put aside’.

If he was killed outside Wangerooge, wouldn’t he be buried (if found) somewhere in that area, and not in Hamburg? I’m just saying. You could say my source is wrong, but I have a problem understanding how they would take the Poles body, transport it all the way to Hamburg and bury him the same day as he crashed. It seems like an awful lot of trouble.

But thanks for the info though. The 19 squadron boys killed over Northern Denmark, and the Pole killed north of Wilhelmshaven. They’re (if these are all) covered for now.

I think if his research was more careful he’d have more right to say so. Or should I call it a pattern of giving less “thought” into Poles, Czechs etc and caring more for the pure Norwegians.?

In my honest opinion, my source’s opinion on this matter is that he is wrong, coming from the German side of things – he’s biased.

Exactly so, VoyTech.

From the little bit of research I have done into this since it was posted I can see (yet!) no definite link with this casualty to this grave. In this particular case, the link is tenuous to say the very least. Whilst the date of death certainly puts this casualty in the frame there are others that day who cannot be excluded. I suspect this is exactly why the grave is still of an “Unknown”.

Dates of death are not uncommon on “Known Unto God” headstones, and in the case of Flt Lt F W Rushmer of 603 Squadron lost on 5 September 1940 that date was recorded on his “unknown” grave marker. However, he was the ONLY missing casualty that day and thus the MOD/CWGC agreed that it had to be him and he now has a marked grave at Staplehurst, Kent.

I think a very good deal more is needed in DCK’s case that will link this casualty in some way to this grave sufficient for the MOD/CWGC to act.

My source says that the date on the stone, 4th of May, means it MUST have been him, if it wasn’t, the British wouldn’t have bothered to write it, then they would just not write a date at all, and that makes sense to me (19th Squadron and the Pole put aside)

DCK, your source is plain wrong. I don’t know aboout the 19 Sqn pilots but ‘The Pole’ (F/Lt Leslaw Szczerbinski) was killed on 4 May 1945 attacking German shipping off Wangerooge and has no known grave, either, so I can’t see why he should be ‘put aside’.

Second, he’s very critical towards how the British treated fallen comrades, that there’s a pattern in it, how they gave less “thought” into South Africans, New Zealanders, Norwegians etc and cared more for the pure British. A controversial opinion perhaps? I don’t know what you chaps think of it?

I think if his research was more careful he’d have more right to say so. Or should I call it a pattern of giving less “thought” into Poles, Czechs etc and caring more for the pure Norwegians.?

Thanks for that Icare9. I will forward your post and some more to the source of this. As I am somewhat second or third in line in researching this, I am waiting for them to conclude or push forward with their ideas and findings. If they are unsuccesfull, I will get on it myself and keep working on it.

Have to say that having visited a hell of a lot of war graves and cemetries the work that has been done, and continues to be done by the commision is
2nd to none. there are very few cases where you will find a negleted headstone .

given the technology that is available now i wonder what are the practicalities/problems of investigating the unknowns now? apart from Finance of course…

cant have Mp’s doing without their duck houses after all ! 😡

You say you have contact with his family. They therefore should be able to access his Service file, both from Norway via the Norwegian Air Force Historical Section as well as his RAF files. The MREU information should also be available. You need to talk at least informally to the RNAF to establish what protocols are to be followed.

The CWGC did a marvellous job in identifying remains, but obviously there was an enormous problem of locating, identifying and concentrating burials immediately after the end of the War. I had a very good friend who was offered promotion to stay in the Army at the end of WW2 if he did
a) either handle aspects of the Nuremberg trials or
b) assist with recovery of remains throughout Holland.
He chose the latter, and he ensured that all he handled were accorded the utmost respect and every effort to identify and pass on all knowledge and possessions to Next of Kin for each man, irrespective of Nationality.

So, gather up all your evidence for a preliminary contact via NoK with RNAF or other appropriate Norwegian authority. You can also enquire from the CWGC for the full available information regarding place of initial burial and all subsequent events involved with reburial. Be aware that the CWGC are reticent to disclose ALL info at first asking, you need to ask them to verify every aspect to ensure you get full disclosure. It’s just a safeguard, I think they want to ensure as little as possible fal into the “wrong” hands, so you have to establish your credentials.

On the evidence presented here you seem to have a strong case, just ensure ALL possible other aircrew can be accounted for elsewhere, to strengthen your case.

I realise it’s important to you, but even if you are successful, it may take a considerable amount of time.

Good luck and I salute your efforts.

Now that’s hard work put in. DNA and all of that. If only this could work with *my* case.

Last on that one btw – a journalist told me he would get in touch with Norwegian officials, putting them on the case of getting to the bottom of this.

I wonder what would happen if there was a more pro-active attitude to identifying the missing ?

http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20100411_DNA_from_letter_might_unlock_WWII_mystery.html

I thought it sounded “off” too. Thanks for that comment.

The MREU teams looked upon all casualties equally. In fact, many of the sites they visited turned out upon inspection to be US aircraft and remains (or crash locations) were turned over to the US auithorities. I don’t think there is any evidence that non-British subjects were treated differently. I am not always supportive of the British authorities in matters such as these, but I’m afraid that suggesting non British casualties were treated differently (or indifferently) is simply untrue. However, there is evidence that British attitudes to some German casualties in the UK (recovery/burial thereof) was often indifferent, slap-dash or simply ignored.

My source says that the date on the stone, 4th of May, means it MUST have been him, if it wasn’t, the British wouldn’t have bothered to write it, then they would just not write a date at all, and that makes sense to me (19th Squadron and the Pole put aside)

Second, he’s very critical towards how the British treated fallen comrades, that there’s a pattern in it, how they gave less “thought” into South Africans, New Zealanders, Norwegians etc and cared more for the pure British. A controversial opinion perhaps? I don’t know what you chaps think of it?

Here’s the grave, got the picture this morning.

MRES / MREU files are so far as I know still with the RAF / JCCC though they are up for transfer to the National Archives under the file reference AIR 81 at some point in the future (don’t hold your breath on this one).

Yes it does. Not sure about the “died” part, as I’m not familiar with what exactly is the common words that they put on these graves.

As you can see here about U-155, it states a 126 squadron Mustang was shot down 4th of May.

http://uboat.net/boats/u155.htm

Is the date marked on the grave? So that it states an unknown airman died May 4th 1945?

Regards,

kev35

Absolutely, and like I said, I have no experience in these matters. It’s not my field, I’m simply trying my best because I have been doing a story on Austeen published in a local book.

There was no body ever recovered. That’s the official story.
The Norwegians had almost the same type of uniform color as of the RAF, and beside the obvious flag on the shoulder, they also had different “wings” on the front, as seen here:

http://www.spitfirepilots.com/images/rab5.jpg

My source claimed there was no other pilots shot down over Northern Germany that day. Since 19 squadron obviously lost two pilots, I can’t say for sure where that happened and how this person are so sure that it’s not either Natta or Davidson in that grave.