War is Here

PhantomII,

You know, if I was invading a country illegally, killing its civillians everyday, destroying varrious bits of it et cetera, I would want to justify my actions too. During this conflict the Pentagon has already been shown to have made things up without basing them on facts, I wouldn’t be too surprised if they had just found an aspirin factory…

Aghhh..

Originally posted by GarryB
Glenn
What do you expect the people to do. Stay at home and pretend they don’t mind that the US government made a decision quit a few months back and has ignored everyone’s opinion and gone ahead an invaded a country. Not even the UN was able to stop them because they knew it wouldn’t so it didn’t even ask. The Australian Government has also supported the US decision despite what you call 50-50 balance on the issue, and Blair has gone out of his way to ignore the will of his people. The only countries that seem to be saying what their people want is France and Germany and they are chastised for it by the great democracies of the UK and US.
Now that the war has started is no reason to shut up and just pray for the troops.
The fact that the people have not been listened to suggests they will not be listened to now, because we don’t really live in democracies. Is that a good reason not to voice an opinion?
They are not doing any harm by marching.

Garry,

Bloody hell, I know they are not doing any harm and I expect people to do what they want in a FREE country. Again, I just think its a waste of time, thats all, and thats my opinion – thats all. Crickey, I think I will refrain from any political arguments here in future, I don’t have time to have to keep explaining myself over and over. 😡

Originally posted by GarryB
It wouldn’t matter if Saddam had 10 nuclear bombs.

The question of whether this war is “just” or not has nothing to do with WMDs.

😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

It wouldn’t matter if Saddam had 10 nuclear bombs.

The question of whether this war is “just” or not has nothing to do with WMDs.

Saddam is not a nice person. Everyone agrees with that I think… even Saddam himself likes to be feared by his enemies so he would probably agree too.
He might have WMDs up the ying yang, it still does not justify an invasion, or regime change.
Nowhere in UN1441 does it state that non compliance will result in an invasion or brutal murder of the leader and his family.
that is why everyone thought it was a good idea to get a second resolution to spell that out. When the US realised it couldn’t get that resolution democratically (ie bribes or threats) it decided unilaterally to invade a country without UN approval and change a regime.

Well guys, they have captured a previously unknown about chemical weapons facility. The 75th Expeditionary Exploitation Force is on its way to determine what exactly was produced at the plant.

Sounds like something that should have been known about already unless of course…..God forbid……the Iraq’s were making things they shouldn’t be there. Go ahead guys…..defend the Iraqi’s. Tell me that this is something that is nothing we should have worried about………..

Defend them yet again guys…..

Oh, and then the tape of U.S. POW’s…..defend the Iraqi’s for this guys.

Geforce I know you’ll be first in line….

I hope you guys will see that this war is indeed just afterall.

“US and the Commonwealth to stand up and be counted when it matters.”

Since when did just the UK and Australia count as the commonwealth?

Glenn
What do you expect the people to do. Stay at home and pretend they don’t mind that the US government made a decision quit a few months back and has ignored everyone’s opinion and gone ahead an invaded a country. Not even the UN was able to stop them because they knew it wouldn’t so it didn’t even ask. The Australian Government has also supported the US decision despite what you call 50-50 balance on the issue, and Blair has gone out of his way to ignore the will of his people. The only countries that seem to be saying what their people want is France and Germany and they are chastised for it by the great democracies of the UK and US.
Now that the war has started is no reason to shut up and just pray for the troops.
The fact that the people have not been listened to suggests they will not be listened to now, because we don’t really live in democracies. Is that a good reason not to voice an opinion?
They are not doing any harm by marching.

“Unlike Vortex’s pathetic remark – but he’s obviously far too mature for those of us who thought there still may be democracy in the ‘free world'”

Vorts remarks are what I have come to expect from some Americans. Democracy only applies in the US. Everyone else should do as they are told by us civilised first world (order) people.

Jonesy
“Given that you know this is the way the system works anyway how can you be so “shocked” by the outcome of the current situation. Surely this is just normal politics.”

I am hardly shocked… I am pointing out the undemocratic nature of this action by the US and UK. The worst cost for those responsible will be no reelection next time. For the innocent victims it is war…. and I include both the US and UK soldiers as well as those Iraqis still in Iraq.

“Once that leadership is elected though they have a mandate to lead. If you don’t like where they lead – tough.”

They have a mandate to lead and to implement promises made during the election and to serve the people. How exactly dos ignoring popular opinion and bombing the crap out of a foreign country serve US interests?
I am sure Osama loves that the US is back in his holy land and that this war will lead to more attacks on US and Western targets… enjoy. This war will undoubtedly aid OBL more than it helps Bush.

“There’s your democracy in action and you’ve no right to decry it just because it doesnt give you the outcome that sits with your world view.”

Yes… a vote by people who could care less about Iraq, but love its oil had to decide whether to get on the gravy train of being buddies with the US or sitting on the sidelines is really what this is all about.

Real democracy would have put the vote to the organisation designed to deal with such matters… it is called the UNSC.
But the US knew it couldn’t buy or threaten enough votes to get its way.
It is the sort of democracy that would have made Stalin proud… but then I always thought that the US was very like the Soviet Union anyway.
Perhaps instead of Shrub, it should be Comrade Bush.

I don’t care if you’d go out on the streets for something you care about or not, that’s not the point.

But that has been my point from the start!

I don’t see why they would bother doing it, its not working, the war rages on, and popular opinion FOR the war here in Oz is actually on the up. Thats why you won’t find me out there even if I did sternly oppose this conflict. I am not one to get personal and start protesting on the streets, I am an analyst and will study it and write about it, make my views known elsewhere in other ways.

Thats my stance.

As for the protesters, well I can assure you some of the people questioned have spoken for a lot longer than 3 seconds, and I do know how the the news works today. War time – and related -coverage like this is typically extended and more detailed than regular news slots.

I didn’t know you were in the media and this would explain your lenghty response as I have been passively critical of it, but I am sure you are a fine professional. Agree to disagree then.

Originally posted by Glenn
Ventilate frustration? Fine, I can deal with that. But if they really want to make their mark, they should do so at the next election. As for informed, I am no expert but I do not tend to believe all I read and hear from the mass media as most people tend to do, and thus they have formulated opinion based upon other opinions or biased reporting.

You might not have such high regards of your fellow countrymen’s capability of remembering things, but i think most people who are demonstrating against the war won’t reward Howard when the next elections show up. Just a gut feeling i have.

You know what a funny thing is about the media (which happens to be my profession, in case you didn’t know yet)? EVERYBODY who reads newspapers or watches the news claims to be a critical consumer not believing everything at face value. Funny huh?

It’s even funnier that most people indeed are critical when it comes to the media. Now don’t jump for joy because humanity is more intelligent then you thought and that there’s hope after all, because critical media consumption works completely different. People are critical of media reports which do not support their vision, and people are a lot more receptive (or gullible, if you like) when it comes to media reports which support their point of view. And since the media you have chosen to be informed by are so supportive of your view, if you’re not careful your perspective might actually narrow down quite a bit…

With this in mind, i suggest you take a look at your own statements and combine them with your media consumption. Now, unless you’ve witnessed one of those demonstrations on your own and have spoken to the demonstrators in more than just three-second-soundbites, do you still think your media consumption is of a higher level than theirs, hence you are better informed, hence your position regarding the war is right and theirs is wrong?

Being critical towards the media is only valuable if one is critical of oneself too, Glenn. I’m not trying to be disrespectful here, but your generalisation of those people demonstrating suggests you forget to do the latter.

Most of the people in the marches when stopped and interviewed have only the simplest typical views on why they protest and when the media pastes ‘WAR’ all over the front page of the papers, dire images and stereo-typical thoughts often conjure in the minds of those that don’t really know WHY, and hence they get angry and then pick up boards and banners and vent that anger. You won’t find me out there shouting and waving about thats for sure!

I don’t care if you’d go out on the streets for something you care about or not, that’s not the point. But i understand that what you’ve heard from the protestors came to you via the TV or a newspaper. And those quotes from those protestors didn’t impress you much.

Well, a critical media consumer like you should know that quotes are by definition very short. No TV-report of a demonstration will have a soundbite longer than 2 seconds in the report. No newspaper will quote a demonstrator for more than two sentences. Why? Because those reports are not interviews, those reports are ment to give an impression of an event, the basic who/what/where/when with a bit of how and some atmosphere. It’s not an interview, where there is time and/ or ink enough for someone to properly construct and state an opinion.

Somehow it’s ironic that a critical media consumer like you didn’t realise this… but perhaps those demonstrators aren’t the only ones with a biased and non-critical media consumption…

Ventilate frustration? Fine, I can deal with that. But if they really want to make their mark, they should do so at the next election. As for informed, I am no expert but I do not tend to believe all I read and hear from the mass media as most people tend to do, and thus they have formulated opinion based upon other opinions or biased reporting.

Most of the people in the marches when stopped and interviewed have only the simplest typical views on why they protest and when the media pastes ‘WAR’ all over the front page of the papers, dire images and stereo-typical thoughts often conjure in the minds of those that don’t really know WHY, and hence they get angry and then pick up boards and banners and vent that anger. You won’t find me out there shouting and waving about thats for sure!

Re: Well.

Originally posted by Glenn
Arthur,

I don’t care if they are against it or for it. I just can’t get over the futility of it now that the war has started. And a lot of them are just the average joe public and are often il-informed about matters surrounding this conflict.

What do you mean by that? Only the well-informed members of the Baath-party should be allowed to publicly demonstrate their opinions?

Those people are against the war for whatever reason, even if they’re just lowly Joe Publics rather than the Astonishinhly Well-Informed Glenn. Demonstrating is for them a way to ventilate their frustration that this war is on now, so i wouldn’t call that futile.

Well.

Originally posted by Arthur
Glenn, shouldn’t you be fighting in stead of futile ranting on those protestors? They are doing what they can while opposing the war, perhaps you can also put your heart where your keyboard is.

Arthur,

I don’t care if they are against it or for it. I just can’t get over the futility of it now that the war has started. And a lot of them are just the average joe public and are often il-informed about matters surrounding this conflict.

Originally posted by Glenn
Maybe not, but surely on a beautiful Saturday afternoon in Brisbane today they had better things to do?! Futile chants and rants in the streets… what a bunch of …. 😮

Glenn, shouldn’t you be fighting in stead of futile ranting on those protestors? They are doing what they can while opposing the war, perhaps you can also put your heart where your keyboard is.

Thank you

“Wolfph Blitzen has a digital picture of a low flying CAF attack bomber, approaching one of Sadam’s palaces! Sent via satellite over to the network….”

What a wonderfully adult and mature contribution at a time like this.

Anti-war protesters are not pathetic people

Maybe not, but surely on a beautiful Saturday afternoon in Brisbane today they had better things to do?! Futile chants and rants in the streets… what a bunch of …. 😮

Anti-war protesters are not pathetic people,…..

The pathetic ones are those which wave the CHEZ GUEVARA flags and look like they should spend more time with a bar of soap.

Full Moon tonight!

TJ

also known as

Booooommmmbs away!

and it is enviornmentally biodegradable…

Ciao!

Oh S H I T !

Cheyenne Mountain 24/7

In 91, I tried to call an AF friend in Cheyenne Mtn. A senior NCO answered and curlty told me the Major could not come to the phone… I cleverly demised something was afoot, and politely thanked the sargent…

Got home that nite, and the war had broken out. and we just got our cable tv that day!! Right on!! haha

FOund out later from my friend, they had sensors watching for scud launches. They had an open land line 24/7 to Saudi Arabia, etc. They could predict flight, impact pt, impact time, and passed the word to our command posts…

I imagine the same is going on now…

The real world is Top Secret…

And if you think someone is bad and doing no good, they probably are… i.e. Sadam, N Korea…

Whoa. breaking news on CNN…

Wolfph Blitzen has a digital picture of a low flying CAF attack bomber, approaching one of Sadam’s palaces! Sent via satellite over to the network….

As Saddam is now firing off missiles he denied having do we have any doubt he has chemical weapons too ?? , and he WILL attempt to use them , and as I have said on ther Forums it’s back to the US and the Commonwealth to stand up and be counted when it matters.
The French were beaten by us in 1805 , the Russians in 1812 , by us in 1815 , the Germans in 1914 , the Germans in 1940 and the Indo-Chinese in 1950 and the Algerians in the 60’s. The Belgians have been beaten twice by the Germans and once by the Congolese – not a bad record considering Belgium has only existed for approx 150 years. The Germans have lanched two wars in the last century only to be humiliated twice. The USA and UK have had an ever increasing presence in the Gulf area for the past 12 years , Saddam has had ample chance to comply to regulations and if he did so there is every chance there would be no fighting now , he chose the other option , to lie , cheat and hide his WMD stocks.
There are now more than 20 countries actively involved in this war , did mainland Europe really think we needed their help or backing , delusions of grandeur !!, not with their past record.
God bless all the US and Commonwealth forces who are currently out there , and thanks to the Spanish who had the balls to stand up and send medical aid .