War or no war?

RE: War or no war?

>No disrespect to you in particular Ink but it’s interesting
>how many people bring up the late entry of the US into WWI
>and II. That and the fact of past US reluctance to
>participate directly in many of the so called “brush wars”
>of the cold war period, are clearly ment to imply that
>Americans are only self-serving cowards. On the other hand,
>when it suits them, these same people also accuse the US of
>”rushing to war” instead of giving diplomacy a chance.

Sauron,

I’m not trying to suggest that the US are “self-serving cowards”, nor am I suggesting that they are guilty of being war-mongers. I’m merely trying to point out that every single war they have started or been involved in has been to further their own interests in some way or another and not to save some poor downtrodden people on the other side of the world. Nothing to be ashamed of there, its the same for every other nation on the planet – its just an easily forgotten fact in this climate of “just humaritarian war” rhetoric and propaganda.

RE: War or no war?

Ink

Interesting comments with respect to the current situation in Serbia.

My reference to 1939 and Germany was not intended to justify, defend or explain any motivation, point of view or position, for why and what happened later, but simply to suggest that support for war against Germany, would have probably been no higher among the general populations in 1939, than it is for one against Iraq now. People during the 1920′ and 30’s were strongly anti-war in both NA and Europe as a result of experiences during WWI but appeasement didn’t work against Hitler and dosn’t appear to be working with Saddam.

No disrespect to you in particular Ink but it’s interesting how many people bring up the late entry of the US into WWI and II. That and the fact of past US reluctance to participate directly in many of the so called “brush wars” of the cold war period, are clearly ment to imply that Americans are only self-serving cowards. On the other hand, when it suits them, these same people also accuse the US of “rushing to war” instead of giving diplomacy a chance.

Regards

Sauron

RE: War or no war?

Are we waiting for the evidence? Or rather just on the end of the Hadj…

RE: War or no war?

The evidence is coming……..Saddam can try all he wants but, it will all come out! Then what will you say? We made it up! Really your anti US bias is showing again :o(

RE: War or no war?

I think this image says it all 🙂

http://network54.com/Realm/Van_Damme/JPG/KeinKrieg.jpg

RE: War or no war?

>Ink
>
>You refer to spheres of infuence, specifically those of the
>US. I am not sure this concept explains US involvement in
>the Kosovo issue. It seems to me that the US’s reluctant to
>get involved there, suggests otherwise. I can’t see that it
>has gained any advantage, economically or otherwise for it’s
>involvment and being cast as the only bad-guy dosn’t do it
>any good either.

Well, first of all its about the export of capital – the US has given (along with the EU – they’re hardly innocent in all this) Yugoslavia loans instead of the “aid” that was promised. The loans carry the condition that they must be spent on US (or EU, depending on who’s loadn it is) goods. The of course, the loans have to be repaid with interest added on. Not to mention the fact that US companies are now allowed to advertise in English, they’re now allowed to own media outlets and TV station (and to show US products) etc etc. Laws have been passed to privatise plenty of Yugoslavia’s industrial capacity and US and EU companies will be the ones to profit from the knock down prices allocated by the puppet regime. Not to mention the fact that soon Yugoslavia will apply to join NATO and the EU and will be subject to a whole host of new restrictions and requirements which will impact not only on its economy but on its soverign status.

>As far as Iraq is concerned, I have dificulty understanding
>how so many ‘liberal’ minded nations and institutions are
>willing to let the human rights, self-determination and
>disarmament issues there, go unresolved for so long.

I see and undertsnad your point – it is a valid one. However, do not be fooled that this is what is occuring at the moment. This, I say again, is not about the rights of the Iraqi people – it never was and never will be. Which is why you’re seeing widespread opposition to it in “liberal minded” states.

>A differnt time and place, but I wonder how many people in
>Europe and North America (or anywhere else for that matter)
>would have agreed on going to war with Germany in 1939?

Its a common misconception that the western European powers (and the US) went to war with Nazi Germany in order to defend the rights of Jews and other persecuted minorities. While its true that Britain declared war after the invasion of Poland, little was done to actually reverse it or even to make it clear to Hilter that they had any intention (forget about actual capibility) of reversing it. France was shunted out of the war within a blink of an eye and Britain only began doing something “anti-German” once it was obvious that the Germans could probably invade the Islands and once their colonies in north Africa were threatened. The USA only really entered the war (except for military aid to its longtime ally) in Europe when it was clear that the Soviets had a very real chance of at least liberating themselves and quite possibly the rest of eastern Europe. It was all about the threat to the security of the western powers – apart from a public outcry and a moral boost for the troops nothing had anything whatsoever to do with down-trodden Jews or anything like that.

RE: War or no war?

Ink

You refer to spheres of infuence, specifically those of the US. I am not sure this concept explains US involvement in the Kosovo issue. It seems to me that the US’s reluctant to get involved there, suggests otherwise. I can’t see that it has gained any advantage, economically or otherwise for it’s involvment and being cast as the only bad-guy dosn’t do it any good either.

As far as Iraq is concerned, I have dificulty understanding how so many ‘liberal’ minded nations and institutions are willing to let the human rights, self-determination and disarmament issues there, go unresolved for so long.

At the very least I would have thought that presenting a united front at the UN so as to apply maximum pressure on SH would have had everyone’s backing. It would appear that many nations have decided that getting pissed at the US President over calling a few megalomaniacs ‘evil” is more important than dealing with be real issue. Saddam must be laughing.

A differnt time and place, but I wonder how many people in Europe and North America (or anywhere else for that matter) would have agreed on going to war with Germany in 1939?

Regards

Sauron

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-01-03 AT 09:47 AM (GMT)]Frankly scooter, if you beleive that this is about Saddam and the way he treats his own people you haven’t even glanced at any of the evidence.

RE: War or no war?

It has everything to do with a mad man and his arsenal of WMD! If, you don’t believe he has WMD and is evil and will use them. Then all I can say is that I have a bridge to sell you. At least both of us can express our views freely and openly. To bad most Iraqi’s can’t. Which, should tell you something?

RE: War or no war?

>Don’t forget Italy, Spain, Poland, Chile, Czech Rep,
>Hungary, Romania, Israel, Austria, Lithuania, Australia,
>etc. etc. (with many more to join soon)

I’m willing to bet that the populations of those countries are still significantly opposed to war (with the exception of Israel). While the US has plenty of influence with the governments of its satelite states it has little over their populations.

>Your view is not the
>majority…..Even the countries that don’t want war. The
>vast majority claim the Iraq must disarm and he obviously
>hasn’t!

How exactly do you prove you haven’t got something? Especially if the person you’re trying to convince doesn’t beleive a single thing you say.

Inspectors can’t interview scientist privately. Iraq
>says it has no WMD? Yet, tell me a country that publicly
>believes it doesn’t have WMD! Iraq had large numbers of
>weapons just 2 years ago.

4 years ago I think you’ll find.

They explain what happen to them?
>Did they just disappear in thin air??? Really……If, there
>is a war and they fine WMD after the war. What will many of
>your views then???

Even if Iraq has WMD (in significant quantities I don’t think its an excuse to kill many of it’s civilians. Would it be okay to kill Israeli, British, French, Russian, Pakistani, Indian or American people because their nations have Weapons of Mass Destruction? Re-read my post above – THIS HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH WMD!

RE: War or no war?

Don’t forget Italy, Spain, Poland, Chile, Czech Rep, Hungary, Romania, Israel, Austria, Lithuania, Australia, etc. etc. (with many more to join soon) Your view is not the majority…..Even the countries that don’t want war. The vast majority claim the Iraq must disarm and he obviously hasn’t! Inspectors can’t interview scientist privately. Iraq says it has no WMD? Yet, tell me a country that publicly believes it doesn’t have WMD! Iraq had large numbers of weapons just 2 years ago. They explain what happen to them? Did they just disappear in thin air??? Really……If, there is a war and they fine WMD after the war. What will many of your views then???

RE: War or no war?

Troy, i’m very well awared of the “release” but, seems like she still can’t collect her nobel. Difference between “in theory” and “reality”.

RE: War or no war?

Actually Vortex the Burmese opposition leader to the ruling military junta is Aung San Suu Kyi and she was released from house arrest some time last year.

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-01-03 AT 09:56 PM (GMT)]>you seems to believe everything the Chinese state press (why
>is there such a thing as a state press) says, but that’s ok,
>you can believe what ever you want just like i can believe
>what i want.

hmm, please go back and read my previous posts again, when did i ever quoted or used chinese state media as a source or basis for my arguments or statements? the only time when i mentioned the word ‘meida’, it was accomponied by ‘ur’ and ‘western’.

just because ppl say nice things abt china does not automatically mean that they just believe chinese media. for ur infomation, i do not read any of the main chinese state media publictions or get any info from them, zaobao.com, with is a singapore based newspaper, BBCI, CNN, the times, the guardian, the telegraph are my main sources of infomation. and the last time i checked, none of them was chinese state owned or run.

as for ur question on why there is a state media in china. well, if u know it or not, all media organisations are mouthpieces for their respective governments. i read an interesting article in the guardian a while back abt how Mrs blair blocked the publication of an article in the british newspaper that contained info she did not want released. if a mear CIVILIAN, who is just married to a politition had so much influence over the so called ‘free’ media of the west, one can only wonder how much control ur governments have abt what is published and what is not.

the biggest difference between the chinese state media and ur ‘free’ media is that ur governments are much more skilled at infomation manipulation, and controling the views and moods of their ppl. good for u.

>Given that, please don’t call people demented
>just because they don’t agree with you. If you insists,
>then that says pretty much about you doens’t it?

i do accept i may have gone a little too far there, and i do appologies for it. but by frist compairing a person to a nation and then getting east and west mixed up, as well as keep making unsupported and seemingly baseless, flamitory remarks abt someone else’s country, u were asking for it a bit.

>i didn’t read that guy’s claims about China, but under your
>assumption i shouldn’t take stock in almost every recently
>democratic leaders all over the world because ironically (to
>you) most if not all of them were political prisioners or
>physical vicitims of politics in the past, from Nobel winner
>Kim of the South Korea, Nelson Mendela, Burma’s Suki (or
>something like that, heck she’s still under house arrest,
>must be a bad criminal, bad mama according to you), and many
>many other places. I shouldn’t take stock in them too…no?
> If there’s a revolution in China (that’s a big “if” so
>don’t need to explode) in the next decade Mr. Wu might just
>be the first democratically elected leader of PRC. What
>irony…again to you.

apart from those 4 ppl, how many other democratically elected leaders have spend time in prison cells? those 4 ppl do not even make up a ‘minority’ of ‘recently democratic leaders’ never mind ‘almost every’. u have got to stop tempting me with such easy mocking opportunities mate!

but we have strayed far enough from the original topic. sorry to have bord everyone who was not interested in our little discussion.

jonesy

very well thought and presented arguements for war on iraq. i must say u have given me much more things to think abt when trying to decide whether or not a war on iraq under the current circumstances is justified or even nessecary.

but, even though the decision against war is nowhere near as clear cut and easy as before our discussions, i must say that i still do not support a war.

but since it seems now that war is almost inevitable, i wish u the very best of luck if u do get called up, and hope to speak (or argue ;-)) with u again when this is all over.

c u around then.

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-01-03 AT 12:41 PM (GMT)]Vortex,

“some of those questions are very fundamental to the
American “system” and if you don’t understand it then you are bound to criticize. First
of all, the US is NOT a socialist country as in most of Europe. We believe in “liberty” as much as “rights”. “

In China (as in many nations) there is more of an emphasis on “the state” over the “individual”. The fact that you attack them for their choice of political system and the way in which their country is run isn’t very liberal. Moreover, considering people suffer and starve in even the most prosperous nation on earth it is hardly surprising that it happens in other nations.

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-01-03 AT 02:10 AM (GMT)]my mistake, should be “western” part of china, being Pacific centric…
you seems to believe everything the Chinese state press (why is there such a thing as a state press) says, but that’s ok, you can believe what ever you want just like i can believe what i want. Given that, please don’t call people demented just because they don’t agree with you. If you insists, then that says pretty much about you doens’t it? Very well, i didn’t read that guy’s claims about China, but under your assumption i shouldn’t take stock in almost every recently democratic leaders all over the world because ironically (to you) most if not all of them were political prisioners or physical vicitims of politics in the past, from Nobel winner Kim of the South Korea, Nelson Mendela, Burma’s Suki (or something like that, heck she’s still under house arrest, must be a bad criminal, bad mama according to you), and many many other places. I shouldn’t take stock in them too…no? If there’s a revolution in China (that’s a big “if” so don’t need to explode) in the next decade Mr. Wu might just be the first democratically elected leader of PRC. What irony…again to you.

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-01-03 AT 08:08 PM (GMT)]>how many tonight are starving in China?

very very few in fact, and definately a hell of alot less then there were, say 5 years ago. if u havent noticed, ppl in china didnt need to worried abt food a long time ago. now our biggest problem is obesity and high colestral, guess that’s juat another ‘little thing’ that sliped ur mind.

another ‘little point’ that may have slipped ur mind is that the main reason so so many ppl starved to death in china in the 50s and 60s is because the US imposed sanctions and actively tried to isolate china cos we kicked out ur little corrupt pupet govenment and decided to go our own path. the US also stopped china from getting any sort of meaningful compensation from japan for decades of occupation, murder, rape, piliage and terror, just a few hundred thousand $ and one heavy lift crane, individual jews probably got more then that! and now u have to neave to come and lecture us on not salving the problems and difficulties U left or imposed on us?!

>worse of all, due to political corruption and personal greed. Don’t turn a blind eye on eastern parts of >China just because you want to
feel great nationalistically, what a patriot, no?

i’ll give u that, the chinese government does have quite a few bad eggs in it. but at least our top leaders are as clean as they come and are actually trying and doing things that helps to improve the current situation, as opposed to some leaders that just decide to invade a country when they made a mass of things at home.

but what the hell r u on abt with the ‘eastern parts of china’ thing? did it also slip ur mind that the eastern parts of china are the most developed in china, and that the cities there are a match for any in the world?

if u mean the western parts of china, well, yes, those parts are much less developed then the east. but there are projects well under way to improve things with better infastructure being put in place to help it attract investment and skilled workers. billions US$ have already went into the west, with billions US$ more on its way. now all we need is time.

>China collectively as a corrupted regime is at fault…much the
>same you can say to the US in the civil rights years but in
>a totally greater magnitude,

hmm…wrong! again! the chinese government does have a fairly seriouse problem with corruption in its lower ranks, but even ur meida, which just loves to put down and dig up dirt on foriegn leaders, have not been able to find anything to critisize abt Zhu rong ji, Hu jin tao or Jiang ze min. the few ‘comments’ the aurther tried to add to ‘discredit’ Hu in an article in the Guardian was easily disproved and only danmostrated the auther’s total lack of knowlegde abt chinese culture and polities. which, just further consolidated my view that our top leaders are as good as it comes. with ppl like that in power, low level corruption can only do very limited damage, and will be rooted out eventually.

>where it’s not just about racism or lynchings, but it’s about genocide. Much the same as Mexico (and >plenty of others) with it’s great land and population is still quite poor because exactly of massive >political corruption.

‘racism’?! where in the world did u get that from? and ‘genocide’? r u totally demented or just dont know anything abt china? for ur infomation, there must be pursecution of a DIFFERENT racial group to ur own to qualify as racism. that may be the case in the US, with the way u treat all non-whites, but it is certainly not the case in china. in fact, in china, ethinic minorities enjoy much more benefits and better treatment then the Han(which is the main ‘racial’ group in china, as u would probably not know).

a real life example that i experience first hand is that ethnic chinese students get a 5~10 point ‘mark-up’, in their grades when applying for places in high school and university. in the highly competitive system in china, where 0.5 point could be the difference between thousands of candidates, that is a massive advantage. i personally had to work much much harder then students from ethnic monorities to get past that. so now that i think of it, we Han are kind of ‘racist’, but definately not in the way u suggest.

as for ‘genocide’etc, well, all i can say is stop reading the fictional crap of harry wu and co, did the fact that he spend the better part of his life in prison hit home with u? i dont know abt u, but i would definately NOT trust the claims of a convited criminal.

>You may not agree, but many indigenous in eastern China will agree…so, should i take your words for it >or theirs?

agree on what? yes, they’ll probably agree with me that ethnic chinese get better tratement in china, but so what? we are still all chinese after all.

hmm, there it is again, ‘eastern’. so i guess u didnt miss-type the first time. are u saying that the ppl in the eastern part of china are not happy now? and what is this abt ‘indigenous’? the Han are the ‘indigenous’ population of eastern parts of china, are u now campaining for equal rights for the Han? 😀 or did u just get the map backwards?

we chinese have an old saying:’ dont speak blindly abt things you dont know much abt in an attampt to make urself look smarter, as u would just prove that u r dumb.’

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-01-03 AT 07:11 PM (GMT)]some of those questions are very fundamental to the American “system” and if you don’t understand it then you are bound to criticize. First of all, the US is NOT a socialist country as in most of Europe. We believe in “liberty” as much as “rights”. If you don’t understand the difference then obviously you don’t understand Americans. As to how many are straving on the streets of America, that has very much to do with “liberty” and “personal responsibility” issue. If you think of the “colored” inmate proportion, that has more to do with “class” than “race”. Although the consequences of today’s “class” issue arises from “race” issues in the past, things are going toward a better future (contrary to what was going on in the Balkans…genocide on both sides). Ask most younger generation Americans and they’ll tell you that they see the issue as “class” than “race”. This is the world’s most powerful and wealthy nation, but behind our back is a heavy burdeon to support what we believe is the core of our values around the world. Just as much as you argue about the bad seeds in Yugoslavia giving them a bad name, there are also bad American seeds. But, if it weren’t for the US, do you really think East Asia will be as prosperous today? Do you really think Western Europe won’t be communistic today? As to sphere of influence, i can tell you that necessary evil may be coming to an end soon due to global defense technologies that the US is working on. That said, be very careful with what you’re asking for, because the future trend is this:

1)let the world be….US withdrawl.
2)total US dominance (not superiority) in military with practical global reach hardware from CONUS.
3)let the regional world in caos as it surely would be due to these eager so-called “multi-lateralists” who just happens to be calling out for “regional super-power” status and obviously the US is in their way.
4)support so-called “friends” only after consequences from their choices.
5)the cycle will repeat to eternity as long as such nationalism fervors without justice springs up from all over the world.

I guess if this is what you want, then you sure will get it. Let’s see, i guess you rather have those Russians, Frenchies and Germans dominating your country. Anyway you look at it, Yugoslavia’s destiny looks very weak and you either face the reality or lament on bunch of useless idealistic stuff.
Do you know there’s a political power struggle right now in EU! There are blocks forming within EU and it’s not altogether friendly.

I personally don’t give a damn about Yugoslavia as a national identity, that’s true, but what i do care about is that US “resources” be used to promote and protect human rights in a practical way, much different from often times idealistic stuff the Euros are crapping out constantly…or certain rather corrupt regimes claiming American human rights hypocricy just so they can explain their mass and more importantly “state sponsored” abuses. Classic focus the attention else where scheme. But the bottom line is somebody is suffering…at least Americans talk and act on our issues. And that’s the core of the difference. It takes a lot of courage to confront it.

By the way, the argument of how many cilvilians were killed by US military in the 90s is so fundamentally flawed, that if you understand “equilibrium” shifts then you won’t even ask that question because it is fundamentally rediculous. Obviously there is a equilibrium shift in “deaths” in the Balkans right now. You can claim otherwise?

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-01-03 AT 05:36 PM (GMT)]My dear Vortex,

>Please ink, not again. How many times i have to pound it
>into your head that the US had no interests in the
>Balkans….it was the damn Europeans (especially France and
>Germany, ironically) constantly demand the US to live up to
>the NATO committments and that they see the issues in the
>Balkans as a serious precursor to future escalation.

No matter how many times you explain it I still won’t think what you’re saying is worth a damn. Vortex, my dear fellow, I respect your much valued contribution to this forum when discussing the coanda effect or other aviation relevant topics but when it comes to politics you are a dud. The fact is that prior to ’99 Yugoslavia was pretty much the only nation in Europe which was not applying to be a member of NATO and which was decidedly “Eastern” leaning. Now, following the bombing Yugoslavia has NATO troops based on its territory, the largest US Army base in Europe on its territory, allows US aircraft to fly through its air-space in order to attack Iraq without question, aplies for PfP and NATO membership and generally does everything the US asks of it (and thats all without mentioning the economy and trade!). The fact is that the US has benefited significantly from the change of government which they brought about (with considerable help from their EU “allies”). Yugoslavia has moved from one shpere of influence to another and I knew it would. The fact is that the more countries in the US sphere of influence the better for the US; more control in UN, more economic stability, more security, more control, more power, more money, more freedom etc etc. Now tell me that the US gave a damn about 5,000 dead Albanians and thats why they went to war.

EDIT: Also, a couple of questions: How many people are starving and living on the streets like stray dogs in the US? What is the proportion of whites and non-whites in US prisons? Whats the gap between rich and poor like in the US? What ethnicity are the poor people in the US and what ethnicity are the rich in percentages? Which country is the richest, most powerful in the world?

Finally: How many UN resolutions have the US vetoed concerning Israeli occupations? How many resolutions have they simply ignored? How many civillians have the US killed in “just” wars since 1990?

RE: War or no war?

how many tonight are starving in China? Worse of all, due to political corruption and personal greed. Don’t turn a blind eye on eastern parts of China just because you want to feel great nationalistically, what a patriot, no? China collectively as a corrupted regime is at fault…much the same you can say to the US in the civil rights years but in a totally greater magnitude, where it’s not just about racism or lynchings, but it’s about genocide. Much the same as Mexico (and plenty of others) with it’s great land and population is still quite poor because exactly of massive political corruption. You may not agree, but many indigenous in eastern China will agree…so, should i take your words for it or theirs? How is the Balkans 100% just? Should i take Yugo’s words or my dear Frenchies and Germans?