Why do ‘aerobatics’ have to be flown by ANY warbird? Aerobatics are for the likes of Pitts, Yaks, Extra’s etc light, responsive overpowered machines which, when flown well are a delight to see. Warbirds however should be displayed to show the lines of the aircraft, i.e. a nice open curve showing the wing plan, a couple of fast fly by’s followed by a climb out & possibly a victory roll. show manoeuvres that the fighter pilots may have used when the opposition was on their tail, do a tail chase with some other warbirds, The most spellbinding flying I think I have ever seen was some years ago at Duxford where there were 4 Mustangs in a tail chase, big open dumb-bells, impressive flying & sympathetic to airframe & engines. 4 fighters of different types seemingly stuck to a piece of Perspex is not my idea of warbird displays, no getting away from the piloting skill in flying 4 differing performance curve aircraft that close, that takes skill but what is displaying what? A lot of displays are, to me, pilot’s displaying themselves NOT displaying the aircraft, This is where we get the mishaps, why take an aircraft to the edge of it’s flight envelope just because the pilot can?
Ask yourselves this, how many Air show & warbird accidents that have happened in the last 5 years have been down to mechanical failure? & before you get out of the pram, I know there have been some mechanical faults!
What are your views?
By: warbirdUK - 22nd August 2003 at 17:43
Likewise, I look forward to that!
Cheers
By: Moggy C - 22nd August 2003 at 17:35
Great,
Ill buy you a pint when we meet up
Moggy
By: warbirdUK - 22nd August 2003 at 17:32
OK, Looks like I’m staying, & will try to understand others a little more!
Cheers 🙂 🙂
By: sparky - 22nd August 2003 at 16:54
That’s what its all about a bit of lively debate:)
Constructive critisism, a bit of banter and less teddy throwing!!…. thats a point what are the views on teddy aeros;)
By: Moggy C - 22nd August 2003 at 16:00
Originally posted by warbirdUK
Well, Moggy, It wasn’t, but would you like it to be? 😉
No! That’s the whole bl**dy point.
But if you are going to go all precious and threaten to stomp off every time somebody disputes the wisdom of your words this really might not be the place for you.
Please stay if you can bear it.
Moggy
By: Dead Stick - 22nd August 2003 at 12:49
It is clear that everyone has a point of view which we can or not agree with. It is also very clear that there are quite a few forum members with particular warbird flying or operating involvement and who have very strong views on the ’emotive’ issues. It is their livelihood. I appreciate that they may also wish to protect their identity.
I don’t think we will scare them off by our discussions, the ones I think I have identified are very sturdy characters.
Keep these discussions lively and interesting, pointless if we all agree all the time.:D 😀
By: warbirdUK - 22nd August 2003 at 12:36
Well, Moggy, It wasn’t, but would you like it to be? 😉
By: Mark12 - 22nd August 2003 at 09:50
We only need ‘self raising flowers’ here. 🙂
By: Moggy C - 22nd August 2003 at 09:34
Originally posted by warbirdUK
Moggy,
From your posting I fear you might be too delicate a flower for internet fora, but then I have no idea what other postings of yours have been flamed.
What’s that all about?
Warbird earlier wrote: “Some of you will be quite happy to hear me say that at the moment this is likely to be my last post to this forum.”
That’s what it was all about.
Moggy
By: warbirdUK - 22nd August 2003 at 09:23
Seafuryfan,
But to voice an opinion if others don’t agree with it is, it seems, a no no, it is not debated in a normal way, it is either taken as an insult to the pilot/crew & their memory If one dares to write about what we all saw i.e. the Firefly crash, or people don’t look at the big picture regarding Airshows & the logistics for organisers. It also seems that, to some, unless an aircraft is displayed at the edge of it’s flight envelope wringing the last bit of performance out of it, it is thought to be ‘boring’ with ‘no excitement’ We must remember that Joe public may not know the difference between a stall turn & a wing over, therefore why stress & strain an airframe when there is no need to?
If you want to see aerobatics then watch the experts flying Extras & the like.
Owners & operators are very lucky If the fees paid by Airshow organisers for a 5 min slot cover the real operating & maintenance costs therefore I suspect many would welcome a toned down display to reduce stress on the airframe & engine,
I would never say that an aviation enthusiast didn’t know what he was talking about, but, in some areas sometimes it is obvious that there is a narrow mindedness creeping in, the poster who ‘Hates’ all other aircraft apart from the type they are passionate about, sure we all have our favourites but why slag off other types? Is that not a bit childish? Good natured banter is always around but it should not be malicious or insulting, especially If you don’t know the person.
Moggy,
From your posting I fear you might be too delicate a flower for internet fora, but then I have no idea what other postings of yours have been flamed.
What’s that all about?
It’s nothing to do with me being too delicate, It’s about looking at someone else’s point of view & thinking about it without dismissing it out of hand, that my friend is debate, not the poor imitation seen increasingly on this forum.
By: Seafuryfan - 21st August 2003 at 22:50
mmmmmm…point taken Moggie, I could have chosen a better phrase than ‘more sedate’. One thing I do know is that when I watch a home-based Spit or Hurri display at OW I feel safer knowing that full use of the vertical will be avoided, as will full-on rolling manoeuvres (perhaps except the odd barrell roll – I can’t remember if they permit those)…..
By: Moggy C - 21st August 2003 at 22:10
Originally posted by Seafuryfan
IIt does not take the brains of an Archbishop to work out that if you display an aircraft in a more sedate manner (e.g. Old Warden), you will lessen the risk of an accident.
You been to OW of late Seafury?
Andy Sephton chucks that Mk V around in a way that cannot possibly be described as sedate, whilst the Gladiator is frequently stood on its ear.
If all we are talking about is restricting display flyers to that sort of routine then I can see no problem.
Certainly those displays are far more aggressive than the Duxford tail-chases.
Moggy
By: Seafuryfan - 21st August 2003 at 21:42
I agree with the above sentiments Warbird, in that I think we do need a variety of opinion to stir up debate – everyone agreeing and not upsetting anyone makes for a polite, but dull forum. I personally am grateful for your thought provoking posts. Clearly, there are some Forum contributers who wish to be 100% respectful to those who maintain and operate these machines – perhaps at the price of stifling debate on very real safety issues involving their operation.
IMHO, we ought to be discussing what we, as the ‘customers’, feel about the way these aircraft are displayed, as we do have a legitimate voice, and a concern in the safe future existence of airworthy historic aircraft. And I don’t think it’s good enough for those who opinion that ‘we do not know what we’re talking about’ because we only spectate. It does not take the brains of an Archbishop to work out that if you display an aircraft in a more sedate manner (e.g. Old Warden), you will lessen the risk of an accident.
Stick with it Warbird, and we’re grateful for your industry perspective. For what it’s worth, I think this Forum is great for the different characters contributing and the variety of posts on different topics.
By: Moggy C - 21st August 2003 at 21:32
I have to say if it was my post that upset you Warbird I am deeply sorry. If you think that was ‘flaming’ go take a look at whatever the modern combat aircraft forum here is called. That’s antagonistic.
From your posting I fear you might be too delicate a flower for internet fora, but then I have no idea what other postings of yours have been flamed.
If you are off – bye. 🙂
Moggy
By: Stormin' - 21st August 2003 at 21:15
Yes you will lose the Techies if you keep having a go at what they say, however most people can take ribbing so long as it doesn’t get personal.
BBMF change paint schemes because they are a Memorial flight and therefore want to represent as much as poss to honour as many as possible.
BBMF displays have very strict guidelines and they are adhered to because they want to preserve the aircraft as long as possible, and judging by the 650+ displays and flypasts carried out every year are very much appreciated by alot of people, no matter what colour or which part of the aircraft is seen.
By: Yak 11 Fan - 21st August 2003 at 21:01
Well thats just great, we seem to have hacked off somebody who knows what they are talking about, thats a great shame as I’m sure we could have learnt a lot from that gentleman 🙁
By: Nighthawk - 21st August 2003 at 20:32
I must admit it would be nice to see the top side a bit more and the guidelines for their displays are v. rigid. But Mr Hannas displays are certainly more spectacular and lower with a higher amount of G being pulled but surely that makes them more risky. But i too would prefer to see Mr Hanna’s display over the BBMF one.
By: warbirdUK - 21st August 2003 at 20:29
Thanks Ant,
Just a small correction, I’m not involved with the RR Spitfire although I know John Hart very well & have been known to help out at Filton in the past & will do in the future no doubt, I was however involved with MK732 for some years, have worked extensively on TA805 fuse & wings & I am setting up work & bits for RR232 so I’m keeping my hand in.
I am fed up with some of the posts on this forum as they seem to be always so negative about things. I only came across this forum when I saw Ken Ellis a few months ago at North Weald, he suggested I take a look, well I have, most of which I can do without, Whenever anyone posts something a bit sensible being ‘In the know’ they get flamed! I’m sorry but you will end up with no one in the industry posting on here eventually then It may as well be titled ‘Rumour control’ because that will be all that’s left!
Cheers…………
By: Bluebird Mike - 21st August 2003 at 20:24
…certainly some truth there, but then again, the BBMF aircraft will outlive all others at that rate!
By: Nighthawk - 21st August 2003 at 20:13
I think the way the BBMF for example display their aircraft is done in a consistant and safe way and before someone jumps down my throat 99.99% of displays are consistant and safe what i am trying to say is they fly elegant and graceful manouvers with limited aeros and don’t try anything too complex but end up with a good, safe and entertaining display.
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August 21, 2003 at 3:58 pm