Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Originally posted by SOC
Profound thought for the day (think I had this one before, but anyway)-Vietnam: definitely not a win. Korea: definitely not a win, hell it’s still technically a war just under a ceasefire agreement. That makes us 0 for 2 in wars against Communist countries…

I would respectfully disagree to a point! First the Korean War. The US was unable to end the conflict without fear of escalating it to a all out nuclear war with China. Which, I believe most here would agree was a better choice! The US and her Allies did not push the North Koreans nor the Chinese out of the Country. On the other the same could be said of the reserve with US & its Allies in the South. If, the US didn’t win the war. It surely has won a moral victory with the freedom and posperity of the South (Korea) vs the North (Korea). Democracy has been proven the better choice………the North will fall its only a matter of time! Second Vietnam I have to agree that was not a win either strategically or morally. I believe the US had good intention at the start. But, in the end supported a crooked South Vietnamese Goverment. The Vietnamese had been ruled by others (i.e. French, Japanese,etc.) for years and didn’t care who you were. They just wanted to be left alone! On the other hand you must take the whole conflict in the context of the Cold War………..

So, in the end I would call it a BIG win with the fall of the Soviet Union, a tie in Korea, and a loss in Vietnam! Thought, in the end I believe both Korea and Vietnam will come Democratic in the end. Which, for the US would be a win for everybody……..

As for WMDs in Iraq, MiG-25s are bigger than barrels of anthrax. We didn’t exactly fall all over the buried jets right off either. The theory being floated that the WMDs may have been shipped off to Syria before the war is interesting in a whole new light-Israel may not want to go around dropping too many more high explosives down holes over there…

As for WMD the whole world thought he had some right up to the start of the war! The UN did and so did the French and the Germans. (and just about everyone else) He couldn’t account for the weapons he had before the UN inspectors were thrown out back in 1998. So, who in there right mind would believe him now? I think they will show up or that he passed them on to Syria……

Originally posted by alex
The US has never failed….not as far as they are concerned anyway…I mean they think they won the Vietnam and Korean conflicts these days.

Profound thought for the day (think I had this one before, but anyway)-Vietnam: definitely not a win. Korea: definitely not a win, hell it’s still technically a war just under a ceasefire agreement. That makes us 0 for 2 in wars against Communist countries…

As for WMDs in Iraq, MiG-25s are bigger than barrels of anthrax. We didn’t exactly fall all over the buried jets right off either. The theory being floated that the WMDs may have been shipped off to Syria before the war is interesting in a whole new light-Israel may not want to go around dropping too many more high explosives down holes over there…

unfortunately I think they still have a single party. Their current leader is rumored to be a ******* son of Ho Chi Minh (a product of him and a tribal minority woman)

Wachenroder

If so that is good and simply confirms that the communist system that was imposed on the people was faulty.

Regards

Sauron

Originally posted by Sauron
Alex

VN? Well most Americans would agree so what’s your point? (however if you look at VN today you have to wonder). The world is littered with failed nations and the vast majority of them have little to do with the US.

Need I even mention the Israel/Arab issue. Europe ran away from it’s responsiblities in the ME in the 1940s and because the US was forced to step in and prevent a second genocide, its been branded as the bad guy in region ever since.
Regards

Sauron

VN has improved considerably these days as they began choosing their path of an Open market system in the mid/late 90’s, as well as allowing alot more religious tolerance. It seems like they’re following China’s economic model in the early 80’s which resulted in their coastal cities booming economy.

Alex

VN? Well most Americans would agree so what’s your point? (however if you look at VN today you have to wonder). The world is littered with failed nations and the vast majority of them have little to do with the US.

Korea? Well south Korea is doing quite well thanks in large part to US resolve. And lets not forget that it was a UN war and that many other nations contributed. If you really view the Korean war a failure (?) then the blame must be shared among all participants and not just the US.

Same thing goes for Iraq. Remember how many countries were involved in 1991? It could be viewed as a failure because Saddam was left in charge. Everyone likes to share in the victory but when the negitive aspect comes up, its oh! the US is to blame.

Need I even mention the Israel/Arab issue. Europe ran away from it’s responsiblities in the ME in the 1940s and because the US was forced to step in and prevent a second genocide, its been branded as the bad guy in region ever since.

I could finish the world tour of non US mistakes if you wish. Perhaps we could start in Africa. South Africa perhaps?

Regards

Sauron

The US has never failed….not as far as they are concerned anyway…I mean they think they won the Vietnam and Korean conflicts these days.

Originally posted by Sauron
Hand

Glad we agree.

Its silly of me perhaps but I figure that given what these two charactures did in the middle of civilized Europe, there would be a massive hunt on but Europe seems rather unconcerned. Surely given the nature of the crimes and the size of the European economy enough Euros could be collected for a detailed search.

I would have thought pride alone would have done it but I guess most people find the Saddam hunt more interesting perhaps because it diverts attention away from the fact these guys are still on the loose.

Regards

Sauron

I couldn’t agree more Sauron.
It’s a total shame that those guys are still on the loose. I don’t think that to many people are after them and that too much pressure is put on the Serbian governement to deliver Karadzic (spelling ) and Mladic to the international court.

But that’s an other story.

I can tell to be very honest that I’m not very proud of the european attitude (and UN too) in the Yougosvlvian crisis.

Yes, Sauron, the Irelevant and useless UN failed, so the powerful, wonderful, marvelous, and did I say powerful US can fail too somtimes if it wants… and of course it is only failing because it wants a large military presence in the ME.

If the Americans are so intent to obliterate weapons of mass destruction, how come John Holmes was never arrested

Sorry, blundered a it with the posting and the quoting! My words shouldn’t be too hard to distinguish form Sauron’s though…!

The lack of technological ability that stems from living in a third world country – its terrible!!

Originally posted by Sauron
-”It seems to me that the UN spent years believing, looking and destroying WND in Iraq and up to the point of the invasion still believed it had more. ”-

Forgive me if i’m wrong – but I thought that the whole reason the UN wanted inspectors in Iraq to continue their job was because they had no grounds for believing that Iraq had WMD, yet they did have grounds for suspecting it. As far as I can see there is an intrinsic difference here – appropriately for Sauron though I’m sure he doesn’t see it.
Why did they suspect he had WMD capability, well he did use some of the chemical weapons sold to him by the US through Rumsfeld on his own people, although they were meant for Iran, so I guess that is reason to suspect that he was prone to attempting to develop them.

We must thankt he US and it’s allies for the big effort they made in ridding the world of these WMD, which as of yet have strangely not been found but definately did exist because Geroge Bush had stong evidence – strong enough for a violation of Iraq’s sovereignty and a full scale invasion.
But everybody else who believes in the UN will admit they were wrong in hesitating before launching an invasion on circumstancial evidence if that at best! Funn how the US believed so strongly in the UN when they needed it during the Cold War to mediate between the bi-polar state of affairs – two world superpowers! Indeed it was their own presidents who set up the League of Nations – precursor to the UN – which they know have no faith in. I suppose whatever suits them best at the time!
Well done to France, Germany etc. for sticking to internaitonal law and for upholding the commitment to the UN that they made when signing on as members.
Must go now – really hungry and want to wolf down some FREEDOM fries!

So, as most of you are strong believers in the UN, it’s understandable that you are upset that no direct evidence of additional WMD has been found thus far. Having to admit you are wrong is tough sometimes especially when you didn’t have the courage to resolve the problem yourself. So lets be happy that the US/UK/Australian governments did have the courage to go in and get rid of Saddam.

Oh, and be reminded that while Saddam hasn’t been found, neither have the two Serbs who were responsible for the genocide in Europe just a short time ago. Why have they not been found? What a shame!

Sauron

Hand

Glad we agree.

Its silly of me perhaps but I figure that given what these two charactures did in the middle of civilized Europe, there would be a massive hunt on but Europe seems rather unconcerned. Surely given the nature of the crimes and the size of the European economy enough Euros could be collected for a detailed search.

I would have thought pride alone would have done it but I guess most people find the Saddam hunt more interesting perhaps because it diverts attention away from the fact these guys are still on the loose.

Regards

Sauron

Originally posted by Sauron
Oh, and be reminded that while Saddam hasn’t been found, neither have the two Serbs who were responsible for the genocide in Europe just a short time ago. Why have they not been found? What a shame!

Sauron

Absolutely true. However I’m not sure that more than 100000 people are after them.

It seems to me that the UN spent years believing, looking and destroying WND in Iraq and up to the point of the invasion still believed it had more.

So, as most of you are strong believers in the UN, it’s understandable that you are upset that no direct evidence of additional WMD has been found thus far. Having to admit you are wrong is tough sometimes especially when you didn’t have the courage to resolve the problem yourself. So lets be happy that the US/UK/Australian governments did have the courage to go in and get rid of Saddam.

Oh, and be reminded that while Saddam hasn’t been found, neither have the two Serbs who were responsible for the genocide in Europe just a short time ago. Why have they not been found? What a shame!

Sauron

Besides WMD weapon, they cannot even find Samddam himself. What a shame. But I am sure GWB know he is still in Iraq.

As someone once said, “How do you know Saddam has (or more correctly had) WMD?” – answer “We’ve still got the receipts”
I say again – what about Israel’s illegal WMD? (hey, no oil and a huge US domestic vote)

Saddam Hussein must have really been on top of things to move an entire weapons of mass destruction capability to Syria in less than a year, on top of that being able to hide from those pesky weapons inspectors for all those months prior to that. A entire WMD capability that could be fired in less than 45 minutes and dismantled and sent to Syria in less than say moreless 12 months – and all this without leaving a trace – I think we are giving Saddam and hismilitary way too much credit. The only country I could see being able to do the above is the US – hang didn’t they sell such weapons to Iraq anyway?

Or maybe the CIA put the dollar bill on the floor in your house?

“Consider this-I know you have a dollar bill on the floor in your house. I tell people you have a dollar bill and I know where it is, and I’m going to go get it. Is it inconcevable that, while I am trying to get people to agree that I should go get it, you don’t just go and pick the damn thing up?”

The point is the US wasn’t going after the dollar bill. It has stashes of dollar bills and supplies dollar bills to its friends all the time. The dollar bill was the excuse to go in and kill the owner of the house… cause he sent his dogs out to piss on his neighbours lawn on purpose twice. The second time he had his dog handed to him with its a$$ whipped.
The reality is that the dollar bill is really a handgun, that could probably do some damage but there is only one shot in it and you are coming in with 200 policemen.
If the handgun really was where you say it was and 200 cops smashed in his door trying to get it and with orders to shoot to kill what would you do?
The dog was guarding the front door, but was even less trouble this time… who says an old dog can’t learn new tricks. You go into the house with your search warrant with th ink still wet, written by the arresting officer and not signed by any judge. You then say the house is yours, but there are still family members holed up and still shooting and now you want a judge to sign the warrant and send in some more cops from different precincts… you know other than your corrupt one.
Was there a real handgun on the floor?
If there was why didn’t he use it? It is obvious he doesn’t care about his own people… as long as he isn’t in Bagdad at the time I doubt he’d care if it was nuked… how else could the US retaliate… put a price on his head???

A handgun might be found… but it is looking more and more likely it will have to be a plant for it to be acutally found.

“Because we bickered about it in the UN and had to wait longer than we desired to go in.”

That is a lie!!!!!! You set the deadline. If you wanted UN assistance then it would have taken at least that long to get organised anyway.