Westland Welkin the most capable WW II fighter ?

Ah, apologies – I did misunderstand!

You’ll be pleased to hear that Emily and Dave there are in the middle of a programme of backing everything up, moving, copying, digitising and fully cataloguing the entire collection. Emily is a professional archivist, so what they hold is relatively safe. I am sure you’ll get copies from them, though – good luck!

That is very good to hear.

BTW: I have a complete set of 1/5 scale De Havilland Dragon Rapide plans for an R/C plane. I think I paid 60 € of those..if anyone is interested to buy those ( I have no time to that and the engines I have are too small for it .30 4-stokes ) I ‘d be glad to hand them over ( they take a lot of space ). It is a nice plane and Finland had 2 of those called ( named ) Lappi ( Lapland ) and Salama ( Lightning ) during the war.

Ah, apologies – I did misunderstand!

You’ll be pleased to hear that Emily and Dave there are in the middle of a programme of backing everything up, moving, copying, digitising and fully cataloguing the entire collection. Emily is a professional archivist, so what they hold is relatively safe. I am sure you’ll get copies from them, though – good luck!

I hope you didn’t suggest to AgustaWestland that scale modellers somehow ‘deserve’ CAD from them! :eek::eek:

Seriously, though, what is it you are wanting to do? 3-views can’t really be ‘transferred’ to CAD, though they can be scanned and presented as such within a CAD package by something like ‘BacktoCAD’ (I think that’s what it’s called). However, that won’t help with the all important shape.

A 3-view is an orthographic projection into three 2-dimensional images. If you are after 3 dimensional data you need at the very least some sectional profiles, and then it is a CAD operator’s job to translate that into a model of a 3d body. Even if the profile data exists, I doubt Westland will do this work for you. And what will you end up with? A CAD file alone is no more use to modellers (unless you mean 3D printer operators) than the series of profiles that it was created from.

I would instead ask whether you can have access to what they have on paper, and if it is of any use to the modelling community ask Westland whether you can pass the information on as copies. I have no comment on how willing they might be to do any of this!! You are relying on the goodwill of a company, and while they are very friendly and approachable I would be very careful about asking too much – and certainly wouldn’t go in telling them you ‘deserve’ anything, as that goodwill might dry up (it would if it was me)..

I think you completely misunderstood me. I would do the work to convert the data into CAD form from the factory provided prints. Certainly if the factory 3-views are readable as such the work is futile.

I mentioned no use of nor scale ac or on an electric high flier in my request to them. I only displayed my concern about the flood and possible total loss of the ac data if the files are not spread at this stage.

I hope this clears the subject.

That is a shame. I did write a letter to Westland to ask for the copies of the original 3-views to be transfered to CAD form. I think the scale model community deserves it.

I hope you didn’t suggest to AgustaWestland that scale modellers somehow ‘deserve’ CAD from them! :eek::eek:

Seriously, though, what is it you are wanting to do? 3-views can’t really be ‘transferred’ to CAD, though they can be scanned and presented as such within a CAD package by something like ‘BacktoCAD’ (I think that’s what it’s called). However, that won’t help with the all important shape.

A 3-view is an orthographic projection into three 2-dimensional images. If you are after 3 dimensional data you need at the very least some sectional profiles, and then it is a CAD operator’s job to translate that into a model of a 3d body. Even if the profile data exists, I doubt Westland will do this work for you. And what will you end up with? A CAD file alone is no more use to modellers (unless you mean 3D printer operators) than the series of profiles that it was created from.

I would instead ask whether you can have access to what they have on paper, and if it is of any use to the modelling community ask Westland whether you can pass the information on as copies. I have no comment on how willing they might be to do any of this!! You are relying on the goodwill of a company, and while they are very friendly and approachable I would be very careful about asking too much – and certainly wouldn’t go in telling them you ‘deserve’ anything, as that goodwill might dry up (it would if it was me)..

You might try R-R Derby, as any aircraft powered with a R-R engine, R-R had the AP & PN’s for same…

Stu…

Thank you, Beermat. How things change! When I enquired some years ago to the Records Office, the RAF Museum and Westland I was informed that none of them had Pilot’s Notes for either mark of Welkin.

That is a shame. I did write a letter to Westland to ask for the copies of the original 3-views to be transfered to CAD form. I think the scale model community deserves it.

Thank you, Beermat. How things change! When I enquired some years ago to the Records Office, the RAF Museum and Westland I was informed that none of them had Pilot’s Notes for either mark of Welkin.

No, I mean that they will be worried about the possibility of getting sued and the adverse publicity they will get if the aircraft crashes into an orphanage, after first ploughing through an old peoples’ home and a convent. The chances of any aerospace company releasing drawings for such a project are somewhere around zero.

I can already read the headlines !

“Excentric supertramp Ferdinand Kugelschreiber built a 1 lbs/sq ft wingloading aerial vehicule ( based loosely on idea of perpetual motion ) and crashed it into an orphanage bending the arms of the spectacles of the head principal Archibald MacIntosh II !”

Further reading might state; Ferdinand is OK, but the leading edge of the wing of the aerodyne suffered a minor crack when devastating the spectacles of principal Archibald ! :applause:

No, I mean that they will be worried about the possibility of getting sued and the adverse publicity they will get if the aircraft crashes into an orphanage, after first ploughing through an old peoples’ home and a convent. The chances of any aerospace company releasing drawings for such a project are somewhere around zero.

What are the chances of Westland’s lawyers allowing them to release drawings if they know that they are to be used for a flying, experimental, solar-powered composite aircraft?

I have no idea. Do you mean that all lawyers are crooks and a good cause is not in their agenda ? :angel:

What are the chances of Westland’s lawyers allowing them to release drawings if they know that they are to be used for a flying, experimental, solar-powered composite aircraft?

Here you go. If you really need to know, any original data and drawings will be at:
Agusta Westland Archive
Westland Works
Lysander Road
Yeovil
England
BA20 2YB

[email]emily.weeks@agustawestland.com[/email]

Emily is very helpful, but also really busy right now with the 100th anniversary celebrations, so don’t worry if it takes a while to hear..

Thank you very much !

I would be very interesting to see the original drawings.

In order to make any kinda competetive scale model those exact drawing copies are a must.

One project could be a hyper light solar/ accu powered research aircraft ( no guns ) with new advanced composites ( weighing just few hundres kilos ).

It would get free solar energy with modern panels at around 18 hp worth. Solar Impulse I cruised at 15 km at just 7 kW at nights and weighed 2 metric tons.

Wonder if the Yeovil citizens would be interested of that kinda project ?

UK has also very advanced solar panel know how at company called QinetiQ ( wonder if they were interested as well ? ) .

Ask Emily.

They exist in the national archive as well, volume 1 of the AP (No. 2215A) is file AIR 10/3051, filed under ‘engineering, descriptive’ but I figured that asking Westland might get you some drawings as well. They also exist.

I collected Pilot’s Notes for over half a century, eventually getting over 2,000 before disposing of them recently. The Welkin was one that I sought for many years without success. I can’t be certain but I feel that PNs were not produced for the type. I contacted Westland’s years ago only to be told they did not have any company type notes either.

Here you go. If you really need to know, any original data and drawings will be at:
Agusta Westland Archive
Westland Works
Lysander Road
Yeovil
England
BA20 2YB

[email]emily.weeks@agustawestland.com[/email]

Emily is very helpful, but also really busy right now with the 100th anniversary celebrations, so don’t worry if it takes a while to hear..

Topspeed, the problem you are having is getting all of your data from amateur websites. Have you consulted the pilot’s notes yet? There are primary sources out there to uncover, getting in a spin about conflicting data in secondary sources, the worst of which is the internet, is a blind alley.

Okay Beermat !

It is indeed a mess trying to figure out even the exact wing plan form.

Looks to me that the trailing edge is straight from above.

This picture is critical because we can find the proportion of the wing tip to the wing root and when we know the span and wing area we will be able to find the correct planform if the foil same series from root to tip and spar positioned to the thickest point !

:eagerness:

Topspeed, the problem you are having is getting all of your data from amateur websites. Have you consulted the pilot’s notes yet? There are primary sources out there to uncover, getting in a spin about conflicting data in secondary sources, the worst of which is the internet, is a blind alley.

I am still a bit confused…this is still saying the Welkin was as heavy as Mossie; http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/west_welkin.php

—

Edit: Also the AVIASTAR seems to have the wing area correct ( around 43 m2 ).

Aviastar 3-view gives a bit too small wing area ( 42 m2 ) and czech model 3-views a tad too big wing area ( 44 m2 ) when wing right lenght.

This confirms the AVIASTAR data; http://www.military.cz/british/air/war/fighter/welkin/welkin_en.htm

Wikipedia 3-view yields only 41 m2 wing area.

Wing area is 42.73 m2.

Next, I’m waiting for a FlyPast article on the “World beating” Supermarine Swift…:)

There is something funny with the last two links I posted; they display the same weight for Welkin as what Whirlwind has.

This does too; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Welkin

Yes it is not easy to understand why the 5000 km ferryrange Welkin could have been the best AC in WW II. Possibly the increased weight of the hydraulics would have ruined the plane.

I get your point; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqRVynXPkfU

I am very fond of this fighter cause it looks good.

Next, I’m waiting for a FlyPast article on the “World beating” Supermarine Swift…:)